(Message inbox:74) Return-Path: somewhere!appel@erzo.berkeley.edu Delivery-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 00:49:37 -0800 Received: by soda.berkeley.edu (5.65/KAOS-1) id AA02803; Wed, 10 Nov 93 00:49:34 -0800 Received: by erzo.berkeley.edu (5.67/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.1) id AA07312; Wed, 10 Nov 93 01:24:41 -0800 Resent-Message-Id: <9311100924.AA07312@erzo.berkeley.edu> Received: by erzo.berkeley.edu (5.67/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.1) id AA07236; Wed, 10 Nov 93 01:12:53 -0800 Received: from Sun.COM by soda.berkeley.edu (5.65/KAOS-1) id AA00616; Wed, 10 Nov 93 00:24:38 -0800 Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22410; Wed, 10 Nov 93 00:21:42 PST Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (isunnl) by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24609; Wed, 10 Nov 93 00:21:22 PST Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA28610; Wed, 10 Nov 93 09:21:09 +0100 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23651; Wed, 10 Nov 93 09:16:24 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 09:16:24 +0100 Message-Id: <9311100816.AA23651@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 10 Nov 1993, part 2 Precedence: junk Resent-To: appel@soda.berkeley.edu Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Nov 93 01:24:40 -0800 Resent-From: Shannon AppelStatus: O --------------------- From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng) Subject: Dragon Pass, RunePower & Divine Intervention Message-ID: Date: 9 Nov 93 18:04:25 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2251 DRAGON PASS * I think it would be very tough to beat the Lunar magicians without the Wind Children & their Sylphs. I think the 3-player scenario is just too tough on the Independents - they begin the game flanked, and the Dragon's Eye is just too tough to defend if the Sartarites want to take it. It's just plopped down there in the middle of a plain, for heaven's sake... (But there's a reason for this, which is more evident on the old WBRM map - he said cryptically). * I have some radical ideas on how I would change the game. I'll throw them out quickly here for discussion. They have not been thought out much, and certainly not tested. + Victory = Cities just doesn't work for me. Furthest is 'just another Lunar city,' not Glamour by any standard, and most good Sartarites distrust them dang 'city-folk' in Boldhome anyway. Victory points should come from killing heroes, troops, and taking strategic objectives (like sacking the Temple of the Reaching Moon). + Add an elf unit or two, to be allied by emissary, but penalize their combat and magic factors if they leave the Stinking Forest. Let them move thru the SF at 1MP per hex. + Add a SF troll unit or two, to be allied by emissary. They would not be as good as Cragspider's 6-6-6's, however. + Add some chaos units that could ooze forth from Snakepipe Hollow. The Lunars would probably have an easier time getting them. + Add emissary counters. They would ignore ZOC, but would still have to move onto the home of the neutral. Give them names and bonuses: ie Redbird the Sage would be a Sartarite emissary who gets +1 to ally Cragspider, and/or the Stinking Forest Trolls. + I'm thinking of deducting a movement point off most units. I think the game 'moves' too fast. + None of this silliness about flying units getting stuck by ZOC. If you don't want the Stormwalkers smashing the mirrors in the TotRM, garrison it properly! (You'll have plenty of troops to do so - see below) + I've got dozens more in my notebook. One of these days I'll dig them out and try to implement some of these ideas. * The Big One * I would totally change the Diplomacy Point game. It seems to me that most of the peoples of the pass would rather fight the Lunars. Especially the Tarsh Exiles! Who can explain to me why the Lunars have the same chance to ally the Exiles as the Satarites do!?! There's even a Tarshite counter that says "Moon Haters!" This is how I see the diplomatic game: The Lunars and Sartarites still allocate Diplomacy Points (DPs). Alliances are still handled the same way. However, each neutral has a pre-determined DP modifier. For example, the Tarsh Exiles modifier might be +30 Sartar. Sartar starts the game with 30 DPs already applied to the Exiles, in essence. The Lunars would _not_ be bidding to gain allies in most cases. Instead, they would bid to keep allies from the Sartarites. Sartar will inevitably get the Exiles, but if the Lunars dump loads of DPs to Tarsh, they can delay the alliance. The Lunar diplomatic game becomes one of "which allies can I afford to let Argrath have early, and which ones must I really try to delay/prevent?..." To balance, the Lunars get huge unit replacement pools, and even more exotic stuff, like Moon Boats, a Yara Aranis counter, etc. Sorry to bore 85% of the readership with this, but this is a topic close to my heart. As I've said before, I always like to think of how micro issues will affect the macro picture. I think the RQ <=> Dragon Pass relationship is an especially good one. RUNEPOWER ABUSE John Medway asks how you stop a character from using all his Rune Points on a big stacked-Extension spell, and thus letting the spiritual needs of the community go unmet. As GM, you can't! A hotheaded adventurer gets lots of flexibility to do silly things like this. But, just like intoxication, you pay later with the hangover: * What do angry worshippers do when they go to their priest, expecting magical support, only to be told "sorry, no miracles until after the next holy day"? * What does the god hear in the prayers of his other worshippers, the ones you've neglected? "Orlanth, you've got to do something about that Siggurd Stormson. He is insulting your glory. He wasn't able to summon up any clouds for my daughter's wedding. Rumour has it he wanted a real long Darkwalk so he could sneak around and look in all the keyholes, watching the womenfolk bed down at night ..." * What does the god say when you go to pray for those points back? All these, and more, are arguments for "retiring" PCs who become priests. Their duty to their community is just too great to allow them to run around and do silly 'adventurous' things with their rune points. [Yes, there are plenty of arguments like "What about Storm Bull kahns, or Humakti?" I would view these more as exceptions. Their 'adventurous' use of divine magic is right in line with their place in society, not contrary to it.] DIVINE INTERVENTION The idea that POW you spend on DI is 'stockpiled' for you, to enhance your glory in the afterlife, is kinda neat. But, here's my take. Ideas borrowed liberally from several HeroQuest variants, including Peterson's own. The gods are barred from liberal interaction with the world by the Great Compromise. Most gods sacrificed all their free will to save the world. The mortal races can effect change in the world, and do so freely. They have free will. Most mortals get divine guidance on what kinds of change (or not) they should be striving for. This is worship. By sacrificing POW to a deity, you can call upon that deity to affect the world directly. If the miracle is a structured one, right in line with the deity's role/runic association/etc, we call it Rune Magic. Rune Magic is an allowable 'bending' of the Great Compromise. Divine Intervention lacks the strict structure of Rune Magic, however. The worshipper burns off some POW and says "hey, big guy, help me out here!" This intervention by the deity, being less structured, is a bigger violation of the Compromise. To allow this to happen, you've got to sacrifice something: that being POW. Without the loss of POW, the god couldn't intervene at all. Otherwise, the gods would be granting their favorite servants all sorts of miracles. This concept also explains why some divine spells are non- reusable. Spells that effect a permanent change in the world are frequently penalized like this: restoring a lost characteristic, striking a foe dead, permanently enchanting an item, etc. The gods aren't supposed to change the world directly, and permanent change is an even bigger crime. Thus, the need for a greater sacrifice: permanent POW, one-use. Enough from me! *David Cheng drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu / d.cheng@genie.geis.com Ask me about RuneQuest-Con! (212) 472-7752 [before midnight] --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: re: RQ Daily Message-ID: <9311091849.AA22356@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 9 Nov 93 06:49:46 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2252 Joerg Baumgartner sez: > From what I heard of the cult of the Seven Mothers, they are a > bunch of associates magic only.Their initiates, or those of Yelm > the Youth or Aldrya's Wood Children, seem to be initiated to the > pantheon only, but already receive quite a lot magical benefits. This is a pretty good assessment of the Seven Mothers cult, which is a highly artificial construct (but useful). Some other cults function like the Wood Children -- almost Voria's entire cult, for instance. A number of us have been expressing concern about being automatically initiated into Orlanth's cult at age 15, because of the POW loss this entails, the difficulty in later joining other cults, like Storm Bull or Bagog (:)), etc. Perhaps the solution is to consider the early initiation ceremony as something like the Wood Children -- not so much a full initiation (with POW loss, etc.), as more a dedication to society. He'd receive normal cult benefits, except maybe the ability to sacrifice for Rune spells. The actual "true" initiation may come later, perhaps on a High Holy Day when the initiate has a spiritual experience while participating in the rituals. Suddenly his POW is lowered and he is enlightened. Geoff Gunner sez: > Sandy talks about Pairing Stone being popular for weddings, thus > must have some subtle effect. Well, why not that people just love > the pomp and circumstance, and the chance to make a special > occasion *really* special ? Why have everything explainable by > magic ? I consider such pomp and circumstance to BE magic. But then, I believe in magic in the real world. When you put on a witch mask, aren't you impelled nigh-irresistably to cackle hideously? When you hear a certain banal old song playing on the radio, aren't you forcibly, even unwillingly reminded of your first kiss, which occurred during that stupid song? When you shout insults before charging into a fight, don't you feel angrier? If you're religious, you know that praying when you are frightened makes you braver. In my opinion, this type of effect is what less cynical societies termed "magic". Every Viking thought he knew some magic. He had a little charm tied to the pommel of his sword. This kind of stuff is what in RQ terms we call battle magic. Most of the RQ battle magic effects are really no more than an adrenaline rush. Fanaticism, Healing 1, Demoralize; all can be explained away by simple tricks and focusing of the mind and emotions. Now, obviously all the battle magic can't be explained this way (Healing 6 and Disrupt are hard to see as an adrenaline rush), but they are only different in quantity, not quality. RQ battle magic is simply a more impressive version of what passes for magic on Earth, though now it is often debased by being termed "psyching out" or "psyching up". Don't get me wrong. I'm no follower of Isaac Bonewitz, but whatever the effect is that "primitive" man called Magic, no matter how obvious the process might be to us, I still think can conveniently be called Magic. Stuff like the Pairing Stone, I believe is a more impressive use of "real world" magic. For example, I'm a Mormon, and we can either be married in one of the fancy Mormon temples, or we can be married like anyone else. As it happens, Mormon temple marriages experience divorce at about 1/10 the normal American rate. Now I don't think that Mormons are any easier to live with than other folks, but the temple marriage ceremony IS touching and impressive, and I feel that the psychological roots from that experience are long-lasting. The "Pairing Stone effect" may simply be something similar. Wow! I just read an article in Science News to bolster my theory. Researchers studying traditional Chinese families (in California) discovered that people born in a "fire" year fare badly when afflicted by heart disease. Birth in an "earth" year is bad for you if you have diabetes, ulcers, or cancer. "Metal" years are bad for lung disease. "Chinese with astrologically undesirable illnesses died 1-5 years earlier than Chinese suffering from the same diseases in the absence of an ill-fated birth year." These effects were drastically lessened in non-traditional families, and were absent among Caucasians. Of course, this only shows the dark side of such beliefs, and I contend it is possible, even likely, that if you got a disease that your birth year was "good" for, your chances of survival may well be increased. Incidentally, what does "whinge" mean? To all: Look, I don't repudiate anything I ever wrote, whether in Different Worlds or elsewhere. I just refuse to defend it. (Weasel words, I know *sigh*) johnjmedway sez: > 1. What ever happened to Androgeus? ( aka Game construct so the > 3-player game can have a Superhero for everyone ) Androgeus goes wandering around Glorantha. In one conversation I had with Greg, he contended that in the Hero Wars he (Androgeus) would only show up once in Dragon Pass. She spends a lot of time wandering around the Hero Plane, too. I've had my players meet some of Androgeus' children in my scenarios. > 2. How the hell do the independants win the "Dousing the Flames" > scenario? ( Historically the "weight of the Lunar Magic proved > invincible", and YOW! I'd have to agree with that one, seeing how > my collective Beastman-Shaker-Pony butts got kicked ) Beats me. I've never played that scenario since WBRM became Dragon Pass. If it's clearly a mismatch, you could try one of the two traditional wargamer fixes. {A} give the weaker side more stuff (Sir Ethilrist? The dragonewts? Cragspider?) or {B} play the scenario twice, once with you as the independents, then again with you as the Lunars, and see who won best as the Lunars. > 3. What percentage of the total forces of the lunars do the units > in Dragon Pass represent? What range in sizes is there between > counters? Unsure what the total percentage is. You could make a guess by noting that there is only one Char-Un counter in the Lunar cavalry, and realizing that the Char-Un are probably at least as numerous as any Praxian tribe. On the other hand, the Char-Un are way far up in the corner of the Lunar Empire, and perhaps proportionally fewer of them are stationed this far south. At my own rough guess, I would surmise that 1/5 of the army faces Sartar, 1/5 is in the Redlands, and the rest stationed around the Empire on police actions, to suppress rebellion, to watch lest Fronela's Ban end prematurely, etc. The counter's sizes are generally around 1000 guys (say 500-2000). Exotics are, of course, an exception. Even the Heroes represent more than one guy, tho. (Argrath being himself plus his cotery of 100-odd followers.) In personal conversations, it has been stated that Androgeus is probably "the closest to being a single person of any unit in the game". --------------------- From: gadbois@cs.utexas.edu (David Gadbois) Subject: Pavis boxed set Message-ID: <9311091936.AA11399@peaches.cs.utexas.edu> Date: 9 Nov 93 07:36:36 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2253 Kevin Knight called to say he has a copy of the Pavis boxed set in excellent condition. He is looking to sell it or trade it for a copy of Borderlands. Give him a call at +1 (812) 426-7532 if you are interested. --David Gadbois --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail) Subject: RQ Adventures 2; Block; broos; Holy Country; tattoos; Harshax Message-ID: <199311092018.AA07254@radiomail.net> Date: 9 Nov 93 20:18:22 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2254 I recently received issue 2 of RQ Adventures Fanzine. This $5 booklet is 36 pages of desktop publishing. The majority is by John Castellucci, with some Duck information by S.P. Martin. This issue contains two scenarios, Gloranthan dice games, duck mythology, the Cult of Quackodemon, a Big Rubble chart, and encounter tables for Duckland. The first scenario, "Dreams Dragons Bring," is set in Dragon Pass, and deals with dragon treasure. "There are no specific cult or nationality requirements," which I consider a big plus. The scenario seems reasonable (if linear), and does a good job making Glorantha come alive, with legends, rituals,unusual plants, and even some Gloranthan swearing. There's a good map of the Dragon's Eye environs, which unfortunately doesn't agree with the unpublished detail map I saw at Chaosium. However, there's also nice detail on the squalid town of Tink. Both the mythology and the cult are paraphrases (of Troll Pak and Elder Secrets). Some people will find them funny; I might if they were much shorter. The second scenario, "On the Trail of Quackodemon," is set in Duck Valley. Assuming the adventurers are already there and aren't hostile to ducks, it should be suitable for most parties. As a mystery, there probably aren't enough clues, but since the villain eventually reveals himself, this isn't a fatal flaw. Again, a good job of making Glorantha come alive. The chart, Treasure Trove Hurbi, has a good rationale for existing (frequently missing in treasure maps). RQA says it's unofficial, and I'd have to agree. But that doesn't mean it isn't good. While I won't use it as Gloranthan reference material (as I do Tales of the Reaching Moon), I will use it both for details and inspiration, even if I don't have a chance to run the scenarios. Contact RQA at grendel@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu. ----------- My players have finally decided to go by the Block on the way to the Old Wind Temple. (RQA3 is supposed to have Block info...) One question that's already come up: how far can you see the Block? Given that Glorantha is flat (and ignoring the scholastic nonsense from Digests of a few months ago), we suspect it's visible at least from as far off as Sartar. ----------- >From: graeme.lindsell@anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell) >My GM allows a simple DI in this case: >"[Insert Deity of Your Choice] Save Me!" I allow this too. It surprised my players when I rolled and succeeded with two Praxians last night -- they had no idea why they'd disappeared. > When we played SotBL one of the broos had skin tatoos (MP storage) on >his chest, and when he died our party Yelmalio decided to get them. Taking broo skin? What a dumb idea -- everybody knows broos carry disease. (And even if they didn't, they smear themselves with dung and filth.) I always enjoy my player's reaction to finding nice magic items on the broos they killed -- all totally unusable (one of the supplements does explain how Chalana Arroy priestesses can cleanse items, but it's slow, costly, and hard to do with organic materials). ----------- >From: sullivam@mlc.lib.mi.us (Mark Sullivan -- Michigan Library Consortium) >The Esrolians always seemed more Minoan to me. I like this model better than Egyptians myself. "Pharaoh" is a red herring. He's a foreign overlord, but shouldn't influence the 6 king(queen)doms of the Holy Country over much. ----------- >From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Steve Gilham Entropy requires no maintenance) >>If you tattoo a >>matrix in your skin, is it usable by anyone else? >I'd say this is *exactly* what the restricted use modifier on >enchantments deals with. I figure nobody's going to want to spend the extra POW to prevent ghoulish PCs from cutting them up after they're dead. And this is ambiguous with "the thing inscribed with... the runes must be destroyed by eliminating all of its hit points" -- a dead person has no HP. I think my ruling will be that if you're alive, the restricted use modifier is effective. After you're dead, the tattoo can't be used (without being restored). >From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) >The Gloranthan Bestiary implies that the skinning of a tattooed matrix >IS possible. That's why the Magisauri have the user restriction that >onyly they themselves may use the enchantments added to the matrices on >their hides. Ouch! But this isn't inconsistent with my proposed ruling. Without the condition, you could spend POW to restore the skin's enchantment, and get 10-20 enchantments without having to learn them. ----------- >From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) >After all, you can meet the (presumed) ancestors >of the Harshax dynasty today in Sartar. Hats off to Dan Barker for finding >a reference even to the tribe they sprang from! I missed this. Which tribe (and where's the reference)? --------------------- From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland) Subject: Re: plot/background - Seven what? Message-ID: <9311092055.AA02881@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM> Date: 9 Nov 93 22:55:11 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2255 Orig-From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) >"Seven Samurai" and "The Magnificent Seven"; same plot, different background). Don't forget "Battle beyond the Stars"... --------------------- From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland) Subject: Re: Harshax Message-ID: <9311092156.AA03107@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM> Date: 9 Nov 93 23:56:29 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2256 David Dunham (via RadioMail): >>From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) >>After all, you can meet the (presumed) ancestors >>of the Harshax dynasty today in Sartar. Hats off to Dan Barker for finding >>a reference even to the tribe they sprang from! >I missed this. Which tribe (and where's the reference)? The Culbrea Tribe. Jonstown Compendium #270,173. Here's the dedication: " M i n a r y t h P u r p l e ' s T r o l l F a c t s N u m b e r T h r e e : T h e G o d s a n d M a g i c o f t h e U z k o ================================================================== As prepared for Lord Harshax, Thane of the Culbrea Tribe of Sartar. Edited and with a commentary by Grey Sage Minaryth Purple. Completed wind/fertility/fire/1622 S.T., Jonstown Knowledge Temple." Greg denies any connections. -- Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun. oK[] | My first law of computing: "NEVER make assumptions"