From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 11 Nov 1993, part 3
Precedence: junk
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Brithini, Illumination, Empires and Slaves
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Nov 93 23:16:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2276
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 2259 saying Blwrm Blwrm in poetic stunned silence
>Sandy said:
>> And the (other) Malkioni claim likewise. The other Malkioni didn't
>> appear until after the Dawn. Just about that time (A.D. 1), the
After the Dawn, or after the end of the Chaos Wars? Dawn is a period
of unknown length, see the date for the LBQ in KoS, p.270.
>> prophet Hrestol had a vision of Malkion, who taught him the New Way.
>> This appealed to a lot of former Brithini, and led to the great
>> secession movement.
>Did Malkion teach anything about Solace (continued existence after death,
>anathema to Brithini) or any morality based on not Tapping (Brithini do it
>all the time)? Did he believe in and preach the existence of the Invisible
>God (the Brithini are called atheists)? These appear to be the key elements
>of his message. Agreed, (almost) all modern sects of Malkionism derive
>their teachings from Hrestol's revelation: but I find it hard to accept
>that before Hrestol the whole population of the West were "pious" Brithini.
So do I. The Brithini may acknowledge the Creator, but the only form of
worship they know is existance. In Arolanit worship of the Invisible God
alone is tolerated, but apparantly not practised by the inhabitants.
>In Gloranthan terms, the Brithini live in a debased "Golden Age" of perfect
>obedience to the law rewarded by unchanging existence and immortality. The
>Malkioni were founded in an "Age of Doubt" / "Ice Age" / "Great Darkness"
>when (per Cults Book p.10)
>: The ancient Kingdom of Logic is beset by creeping ice walls which
>: destroy cities and nations. Despair sends people to the Devil, so
>: Malkion the prophet is born amid conflict and renews the truth of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sounds like Storm Age to me.
>: the Invisible God in the world. He protects his people and the
>: sacred city of Malkonwal throughout the long night.
>Now, I've been assuming that the Kingdom of Logic equals the non-theistic
>Brithini, and that Malkion's revelation of a personal, loving deity (and
>the consolation of Solace in Glory) is what heartens the more despairing
>among the Brithini to resist the travails of the Ice Age.
Up to here I agree with Nick 100%.
>Having the
>Brithini founded in the Golden Age by one Malkion, then having some of them
>rescued in the Darkness by a second Malkion (whose message is rejected by
>the more strictly orthodox Brithini, led by the first Malkion's children
>Zzabur etc.), seemed to make sense of the weirdness that otherwise
>develops.
Obviously Malkion was changed by the revelations, so that part of his own
people didn't recognize him (or his authority) any more. The Lawgiver who
installed the caste system may well be the same (immortal) individual who
received the new message of the Creator.
>In Greg's original Hrestol story, the "revelation" to Hrestol by the god
>Malkion is far less far-reaching: he validates Hrestol's already-conceived
>notion that combining the powers of all the castes will be permissible now
>Time has started and the Old Way isn't necessarily the best any more. Since
>Hrestol, in the story, has already made up his mind that this is so...
What better prophet to choose?
Ed Wallman Re: Illumination in X-RQ-ID: 2261
>Once in a late night duscussion, a friend and I also decided that asking
>questions is too obvious. Players who have an inkling how illumination works
>will not bother answering strange questions and will not become illuminated.
How about the notorious riddle to open a door/avoid a supernatural guardian?
Graeme Lindsell in X-RQ-ID: 2262
>Nick Brooke writes:
>>I disagree completely about New
>>Pelorian. This is a language of lies and insane blasphemies: *nothing*
>>written in it is untainted by Lunar notions.
> It is also the script of a very large empire of very successful
>enemies to the north, with an equally large body of writing. I'd
>think they'd have to learn New Pelorian; know thine enemy and all
>that.
And of course one has to counter Lunar lies with Orlanthi truths, and to
recover knowledge stolen by those filthy Pelorians. (Lunars, Solars, all
the same hassle.)
>[Quoting Yours Truly]
>>> I think [agrarian slavery] must be fairly widespread in the Lunar
>>> Empire: look at how many slaves the Polas have.
The Polos (best known: Niccolo, Maffeo and Marco "Millione"), I assume,
with their saffron plantages around Venice.
>>Yes, I'd go along with this, and recommend a look at late Roman Republican
>>latifundiae (huge slave-farmed estates) for a possible model. A vast social
>>problem in the making...
> That's what I was thinking of, though I didn't rmemeber the name. As I
>recall, the latifundiae were made possible by the vast numbers of slaves
>made available by the conquests of the late Republic .
> This could be a reason for the sudden onrush of the Lunar Empire:
>the demand for slaves, land and income fueling an attack on Sartar,
>the slaves being used to displace the small farmers of Peloria and
>Carmania, the displaced farmers needing land and/or joining the
>army, the armies being used to attack the Holy Country...
Then why feed them to Chaos Horrors like the bat? I know of no incident
where Sartarite captives of war were enslaved and carried off to work the
fields of Lunar Heartland.
Of course I heard that the Lunars kidnap young girls, carry off naughty
kids, and whatever other bad things. So do all other evil people.
> The posited future hisory of the Empire in Dragon Pass seems
>a little strange. Can anyone recall a similar (Earthly) incident
>where an empire successfully (and easily) conquers a region only
>to be kicked out and possibly destroyed within 30 years? I
>know the Romans got kicked out of Germany east of Rhine after Varus,
>and the British had little fun in Afganistan. I can't think of
>many other examples of expanding empires collapsing in pre-modern
>times, though I'm sure there are people on this list who know
>much more about this subject than I do.
Without temporal order:
Alexander the Great's empire, the Romans in Britain (North of Hadrian's
Wall), several short-lived empires in Asia Minor before the Persians took
over, Theoderich's Goths in Italy, Attila the Hun's empire, Outremer,
Geiserich and the Vandals in Carthago, Cnut the Great's English-Norwegian-
Danish kingdom, mythical Arthur Pendragon's Britain, the late Mayan civil
war, Mesopotamia after the fall of the Assyrs ...
And I doubt I know much more than you.
> Relating Sandy's description of Dwarf's senses:
>>He had the sensory
>>'pits' hidden behind the dwarf's beard (thus no problem with wearing too
>>many clothes, etc.), with the hair of the beard itself perhaps acting as an
>>extension of the sense organ
> I don't really think the Mostali need these unusual senses. A lot of
>hive animals get around underground with just touch and a good sense
>of smell. I'd say the Mostali script is Braille, and they can identify
>areas underground by raised markings on the wall and the smell of the
>equipment there. The various castes would have their own smell as well.
Catlike sensory hair to perceive air movement underground, extremely finely
tuned sense of balance, good three-dimensional hearing, although no sonar,
eyes designed for filigran work, thus shortsighted, acute sense of touch and
temperature - did I forget anything?
Smell and taste tend to be underdeveloped - ever tried dwarfen food? Or
tried to breath in Mostali underground complexes? Also alchemical works
tend to produce stifling odours.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: graeme.lindsell@anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: The meaning of "Whinge"
Message-ID: <9311110006.AA24031@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 11 Nov 93 16:06:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2277
Joerg writes:
>IMO the Brithini don't claim to be Malkionists in the sense of following the
>revelations of Malkion, but the laws of Malkion (issued earlier, it seems).
>Malkion to them is the cultural hero who imported the cast system into the
>Kingdom of Logic, but who had to be taught about the Creator. These
>teachings obviously failed, because Malkion spread the illogical news of
>Solace. They didn't fail completely, because (at least some of) his children
>keep the way, most prominently Zzabur.
This makes sense when considering the immortal Brithini: Malkion
the founder of the Brithini and Malkion the prophet may be the
same person, separated by several thousand years. Malkion founded
the Brithini caste system to save the Kingdom of Logic in the
Lesser Darkness; later during the Great darkness he realized that
his system was failing and his people dying, so he heroquested
(ie had a revelation from the Creator) and found a new way. Some
of the Brithini think he's gone mad (I suspect the Talars and Zzaburs
who've been having a good time out of Brithini culture) but most
of the West are converted.
I like the Aeolion myths, especially the Orlanth/Christ angle. Would
the Stygians list Arkat as a son of the Invisible god, or as a prophet?
Sandy: loved the stuff on Doraddi!
The Seven Mothers as a grouping of associate cults: are the Lightbringers
worshipped in a similar way? I notice that there is a temple to the
Lightbringers in Riskland.
From the Australian Concise Oxford English Dictionary:
"whinge (-nj) v.i. (dialect or Australian) whine, grumble peevishly;
whinging Pom (Aust. Slang) dissatisfied English immigrant"
Henk writes in reply to Colin Watson:
>>"Seven Samurai" and "The Magnificent Seven"; same plot, different background).
>Don't forget "Battle beyond the Stars"...
Or "Thrud the Destroyer"! Ahh, the good old days, when White Dwarf was
a decent magazine, and had Thrud the barbarian... (anyone know what happened
to Carl Critchlow? (sp?))
Graeme.Lindsell@anu.edu.au
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