From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 12 Nov 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: scenarios
Message-ID: <9311111751.AA11791@condor>
Date: 11 Nov 93 17:51:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2284
___________
Nick Brooke on scenarios:
>I dare say you know we aren't going to agree.
I had an inkling of suspicion that this might be the case. :-)
>If all scenarios are generic, there's no easy
>way to break into the complex Gloranthan background.
Ok, but I think one or two context-free scenarios would be nice amongst the
heavy Gloranthan stuff. These scenarios could still have a Gloranthan flavour,
cults etc. just with fewer constraints of setting and (player) characters.
Smaller, self-contained stories which would fit in a variety of locales.
>A scenario written to fit a specific part of the world is at least going to
>be instantly usable in that location.
Agreed, but how specific do you really have to be? Gaumata's Vision has a
wonderful idea for a plot but it also has pages of introduction used to
shoe-horn the scenario into a few square kilometers on the map. Granted,
you can ignore this and run it anywhere, but one feels obliged to make use
of all the info provided (having paid for it). Given the choice between 3
padded scenarios and half a dozen lean, stripped-down scenarios I would
rather fork out my cash for the latter. I have my own ideas about my campaign
which can be used to flesh them out myself.
>"Seven Samurai," after all, came out
>in a non-generic form, and was subsequently pillaged/emulated by others. I
>would not like to see a write-up of the plot of "Seven Samurai" in terms of
>Fighters, People, etc. All the variations on that theme have local colour
>splashing out all over.
Local colour yes, specific details no.
Consider "The Magnificent Seven". We can infer that it's set in northern Mexico
or thereabouts. It doesn't say exactly where; nor when; nor who the bandits
really are; nor where the gunmen really came from. Because it *doesn't matter*.
There are no external influences. The scope of the plot is extremely localised.
The story is made by characters, age-old motivations & action. It is not
bogged down in historical & cultural pedantry.
Likewise, in a Gloranthan version we don't need to be given the details
of where & when & why. We just need to know that it's a village somewhere
in or near Prax (or wherever); the farmers are persecuted by bad-guys; the
PCs sort it out.
>Gloranthan lore belongs in Gloranthan games. You can't really divorce the
>two, and it would be a terrible shame if you tried: a sterile thing to do.
I can and I do. It can be very creative. But it's also very time consuming. :-(
>I'm not sure how you distinguish a "major" fragment from any interesting
>mention or use of stuff: to make such a value judgement, you have to read
>the source first! And new Gloranthan material can and should be presented
>*anywhere* -- even on this Daily.
You give Glorantha greater priority than RQ. I respect that viewpoint but
disagree with it. Too much lore can obscure the story IMHO. Conversely, I
also find that Lore presented in a scenario can be obscured also. This is
why I'd prefer to separate the two.
>At the end of the day: who else publishes Gloranthan stuff we can use?
Who publishes non-Gloranthan stuff for RQ these days?
>I am dead set against the de-Gloranthification of RuneQuest materials:
>there are any number of non-Gloranthan games, books, movies, etc. out there,
>if that's what you want to play or convert. But leave the real thing alone!
Ah well, I think we'll just have to agree to differ on this one... :-)
_________________
Joerg Baumgartner highlights:
>Combat scenarios: Aren't these out of vogue?
Maybe on Planet Reebok, but not where I come from. :) I'd say 50% of the gaming
sessions I play involve combat of some sort (regardless of the game system.
The only exception is CoC, where the combat ratio is probably 25%).
Conflict is at the heart of any good story. In RPGs the most obvious form of
conflict is physical combat.
[...]
>This is an expensive pasttime :-(
Indeed it is.
___
CW.
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: One Prophet
Message-ID: <931111194654_100270.337_BHB38-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 11 Nov 93 19:46:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2285
_________________
Joerg and Graeme:
OK, I'll come quietly. Your new consensus on Malkion, where the Brithini
reject the second spurt of teachings by their original Lawgiver, looks to
be far more entertaining and less confusing than my original "solution" to
the inconsistent roles apparently played by the same character. In fact,
you can get loads of fun out of this. Well done, guys. It's also
interesting that Malkion's sons Zzabur, Horal, Talar, presumably connived
at and agreed to banish their father: like the first Brutus in reverse, and
very much unlike what you get in traditional patriarchies...
I'll go along with Graeme's formulation, i.e:
> Malkion the founder of the Brithini and Malkion the prophet may be
> the same person, separated by several thousand years. Malkion founded
> the Brithini caste system to save the Kingdom of Logic in the Lesser
> Darkness; later during the Great Darkness he realized that his system
> was failing and his people dying, so he had a revelation from the
> Creator and found a new way. Some of the Brithini think he's gone mad
> (I suspect the Talars and Zzaburs who've been having a good time out of
> Brithini culture) but most of the West are converted.
We now need to sort out the Trial scene, the Exodus myth, and the ultimate
fate of Malkion: presumably he was bodily assumed into Solace in Glory at
some point...
> The Seven Mothers as a grouping of associate cults: are the Light-
> bringers worshipped in a similar way? I notice that there is a temple
> to the Lightbringers in Riskland.
And the Lightbringers' Hall in Balazar. I think this is extremely possible,
and perhaps common outside of more "civilised" Orlanthi regions: remember
that the spread of Theyalan Lightbringer culture was originally a
civilising missionary movement (in the First Age), still suited to that
role.
I divert myself by thinking of a twin temple somewhere in Sylila: "Seven
Fathers of the Sun, Seven Mothers of the Moon".
___________
Sandy said:
[Re: lots o' stuff about Lunar troop strength]
> Your estimates look pretty good to me. I can't imagine the Char-un
> ever sending 1/5 of their entire population to help the Lunars fight.
That was the point of all my caveats. I was trying to estimate the total
strength of the Lunars-plus-Allies; I threw in the towel for the insanely
tricky ones, but the Char-un are straightforward enough to work out. 20% of
the population is everyone young enough to ride and carry a sabre: that's a
heck of a lot of Cossacks, but most of them spend all their time riding
around hassling other Cossacks back home in Erigia. No Way are they all
going to head off south to fight a war in a country they've never heard of
(unless the Ice gets real close, the Elves come back, and the Ancestors
start talking: but that's nomad migrations for you; can't imagine the
Lunars would *ever* encourage that).
> The fact that the Brithini, today, are a cold and repellent folk
> does not mean that they were always so. The Brithini during the
> Darkness carried the torch of civilization and did many important,
> even ennobling things. The Malkioni still respect them for this,
> in much the same manner as Americans still have some respect for
> the cold, repellent British from whence our culture sprang (joke).
And we, the Brithini/British, for our part, feel amusement mingled with
contempt for our inferior, half-animal, childlike descendents (also joke).
_____________________
Mark Sullivan writes:
> Who/what/where are the Lismelder tribe, Greydog clan, etc.?
> I am a fairly new subscriber, so if you have already answered
> you could just tell me what Digest it is in and I can look it up.
Try finding "Tales of the Reaching Moon" issues 5 and 6, or stay tuned for
more occasional unplanned snippets from David Hall's Sartarite campaign.
The Lismelder tribe are a bunch of Sartarite hicks who live between the
Starfire Ridge and the Upland Marsh, mostly along that road that runs south
from Runegate Fort. The Greydog clan are the most indomitable clan in the
Lismelder tribe (except for those no-good Gorinds, and the peculiar Osgosi
with their strange notions), and therefore in all Sartar. And the Hodirsons
are the most intrepid, valiant, thrusting band of brothers you could ever
hope to meet, with more cows than you could shake a stick at and more sheep
than you could count.
If you've not heard of "Tales", ask again and I'll tell you all you need to
know about the best Gloranthan Magazine in town.
> Since the Lunar Sable folk have been a part of the empire since the
> Assault on Glamour, I think that your 20% max mobilization may be too
> high. Seems like nearly 350 years of exposure to Lunar culture and
> luxuries may have softened them compared to traditional Praxians.
Point taken. They are perhaps a bit more settled than trad. Praxians, and
have after all had over a thousand years of cultural divergence, usually
confined to a fairly cramped space. Anyone been to the top of the Hungry
Plateau to see what the Sables are getting up to?
> Same goes for the Char-un. Which may help with those *52* counters.
Not quite so convinced by this: they are a bunch of hairy Cossacks with
bugger all to do Up North except fight one another and sign on with the
Lunars' Job Creation Schemes. But as my estimates are (a) crude and (b)
irrelevant (until the wars reach Kostaddi or Erigia), it doesn't really
matter, yet...
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: tribes; Block
Message-ID: <199311112000.AA04607@radiomail.net>
Date: 11 Nov 93 20:00:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2286
>From: sullivam@mlc.lib.mi.us (Mark Sullivan -- Michigan Library Consortium)
> (1) What size file do you mean for the Sun Domer's?
Presumably based on the information in Sun County: 16 men per file.
> (2) Who/what/where are the Lismelder tribe, Greydog clan, etc.?
More details are in Tales of the Reaching Moon, to which you should
subscribe if you're interested in Glorantha (as opposed to the RQ rules).
Sartar's tribes include the following:
Amad
Aranwyth
Bachad
Balkoth
Balmyr
Cinsina
Colymar
Culbrea
Dinacoli
Ducks
Dundealos
Enstalos
Kheldon
Kultain
Lismelder
Locaem
(Maboder is now extinct)
Malani
Princeros
Sambarri
Telmori
Torkani
Tovtaros
Tres
Vantaros
>From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
>> how far can you see the Block?
>
>Hmm. I always assumed you couldn't see it from Sartar, but I never
>really considered it before. It seems to me that, since the Block
>produces no light of its own, and is (I think) over 100 miles from
>Boldhome, the haze in the air must block it from view except maybe
>from high mountains on a very clear day. I've seen mountains that
>were over 50 miles away over flat terrain on a very clear day in
>Utah, but they were mighty empurpled.
I've seen Mt Rainier (14410 ft) from Othello, WA, a distance of around 168
mi (270 km). It stuck up from the Cascades, and looked almost like a cloud
(it's snow-capped) if you didn't know what it was.
The Block is only about 120 km from Boldhome (300 km from the Temple of the
Reaching Moon in Tarsh). I think if it's tall enough, it could be seen from
Tarsh, given good cloud conditions, and the Quivin mountains not being in
the way. So the question is, how tall is the Block? Hard to tell from the
cover of Pavis (which is also around 120 km away, though with fewer
mountains in between).
Related question: how high is Tada's High Tumulus? From the RQ2 map, it
looks taller than anything else. (Wintertop is 4000 feet above sea level.)
>From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
># Plus receiving considerable help from Maniria, e.g. Goldgotti (FA).
Goldgotti is Manirian? Do you have a source for this? (I'd love to know
more about the counters.)
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: cts: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <9311112307.AA26125@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 11 Nov 93 11:07:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2287
Sandy Petersen here.
COMMENTS ON JOERG'S DP SUGGESTIONS
re: Magic fortresses. Having the TotRM give you an infinite magic
factor seems a big much. How about just doubling it? Ditto for other
magic sites.
re: Telmori. Though the Wolfrunners are generally unfriendly to the
other Sartarite tribes, they would NOT ally with the Lunars against a
Prince of Sartar. They are, in fact, fanatically loyal to the House
of Sartar. If there were a rebellion against the Lunars in which the
rebel leader was not a Prince or Princess, all bets are off, and
they'd probably join with the Lunars because of the moon connection.
The ducks are also fanatically loyal to the House of Sartar. This
dates back to ancient secret treaties made between these two groups
and Sartar himself.
Joerg sez:
>All subjected to random factors, as the Empire is chaotic.
I really hate random factors in wargames, myself, and would vote
against this random factor business. Incidentally, the Empire's PR is
that they can control chaos, and in addition the Empire is NOT
chaotic -- it combines chaos with the real world. Perhaps the Empire
should have, to make up for its shortcomings in diplomacy, a bunch of
points they can spend to "buy" units from their exotic pile, (the
Vampire Legion, Moon Boats, Arrolians)
re: Trolls. IMO, the trollkin have been rated too high. Argan Argar
troll spearmen might possibly be worth a 3-2-3-X, but untrained
trollkin can hardly be better than 1-1-3-X. Maybe 1*-1-3-X.
> The Pharaoh would be a hero at least, with the power to return from
> the dead on 2 to 6 on d6.
Given my dislike for random factors ("I'd have won that fight if I
hadn't rolled a '1' when you killed the Pharaoh.") I suggest that the
Pharaoh always return from the dead unless he is killed in a fight by
a Superhero or Hero or Dragon.
re: Fazzur Wideread. Fazzur is no hero, and should not have the stats
of Ethilrist. At best he's the equivalent to one of the nomad Khans
from Nomad Gods.
IMPORTANT GLORANTHAN INFORMATION ABOUT MAGIC USE
Apparently this information hasn't been disseminated widely, and I
think it is interesting and useful for would-be gamers of Glorantha.
The great Lunar innovation in combat was that they were the first
people ever to organize magicians into military units. The Lunar
Colleges of Magic, as portrayed in DP, were a first. The standard way
that everyone fought in Glorantha was to disseminate their lesser
priests, sorcerers, and shamans among their military units to provide
them with "magic support". The Lunars, instead, grouped their
magicians together.
Argrath was the first guy ever to respond to this by emulating it,
with his Magical Union. This is why Argrath was able to face the
Lunars on a more equal basis than previous enemies. He used their own
tactic against them.
So, you ask, what is a "normal" Gloranthan army like in wargame
terms? It is composed of ordinary troop counters, with the only
magic-using troops being Exotics. Special temple units that happened
to fight together, like the Earth Shakers, might show up as a magic
unit. Also, of course, Heroes and special magicians like the Nomad
God Shamans strengthen you magically.
The advantage of the old-fashioned way of doing things is that all
your units had a slightly stronger magic factor. A few units, with a
really high complement of magic-types, might even have a magic range
of 0.
The advantage of the Lunar way is obvious, Imagine a Sartarite army
with +1 added to all of its magic factors (well, maybe not to the
Sartar City Militia), but without the bulk of the Magic Union -- only
exceptional magic units that fight together like the Stormwalkers,
Wind Children, etc. would be present as separate units. The Lunars
would, of course, kick butt.
Now, in Joerg's plans for Kethaela's army, this truth should be
applied.
Shadow Plateau is unlikely to have two units of shamans, and one
sorcerer. Instead, they'd have the Dehori and Shades, as mentioned,
plus probably one Castle of Lead unit with lots o magic ability
(representing the Mistress Race and their guards). I'd give them at
least one Zorak Zoran gang with the power to go berserk and double
their combat power at the cost of being disrupted after the battle.
Caladraland might have one separate magic unit of Volcano Priests for
each major Volcano. But that's probably all, as far as magic support.
God Forgot would actually have a few magician-like units with exotic
abilities. There's the Flying Machine unit, for instance, composed of
insane inventors with bicycle-like or flapping-winged devices (I
actually saw this unit in the old game for this region).
Rightarm Island -- probably no magicians. Maybe provide the exotic
magic ability for the Pharaoh to control the tides or something.
Wenelian mercenaries -- not like the Pol Joni, since more of them are
on foot and they're wilder/less sophisticated than the Sartar City
Militia. Maybe modeling them after the Sartar tribal units is best.
Graymane needs to be there, too, of course. If Graymane is killed,
probably all of them would leave, possibly pillaging as they went.
Esrolia has plenty of crappy militia (I think the right mix here is
15 3-3-2-X, 25 2-2-2-X, and 20 1-1-2-X units -- mostly only good for
garrison duty.) For specialty troops, I suggest one each of the six
Earth cults. Voria would provide a magician unit 1-4-4-(4) with the
exotic power that it could not harm enemy troops, but could add its
magic strength to that of one guy within range. Babeester Gor would
be a strong military unit, Ernalda & Maran Gor would each be a
regular magic unit, Maran Gor with the exotic power of the Shakers in
DP, then Ernalda getting the power to turn troops into a fort (not a
Wall, give me a break). Asrelia and Ty Kora Tek would be two more
special units; Asrelia represented as a pile of wealth that could be
used to buy off enemy troops, with Ty Kora Tek having the ability
that units killed by Ty Kora Tek's stack cannot be used as
replacements. Just suggestions here. But the Esrolits should'nt
possess a bunch of earth magicians. I repeats -- instead many of the
troops have a slightly boosted MF. The few suggested here are about
it. Oh yes, and they should have the Serpent Guardians as represented
in Nomad Gods.
The Pharaoh makes a fine hero, with his bridges and Lottery-sword
Humakti. He probably has a magic attack like the Lunar Emperor (not
as strong, tho).
Wolf Pirates probably make a bad ally for the Holy Country, seeing as
they sacked the City of Wonders at one point.
Sandy
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: This and That
Message-ID: <9311112316.AA28131@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 11 Nov 93 23:16:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2288
Paul Reilly here.
So much to reply to... most will have to wait until the weekend.
Nick speculates that the Lunar Empire is a means and not an end in itself.
I agree. Around here, we have long believed that the Empire is an
'incubator' for the Lunar Way, and may be discarded once its purpose is
served. To the Lunars, the Lunar Way is the Last Best Hope for Glorantha to
escape the Cycles of Wakboth; without it the world is doomed to diminish
forever.
Nick also writes:
>I like to see Sheng Seleris and High King Argrath as taking over rather
>than destroying the Lunar Empire.
Agree. Argrath acts as an Alexander. Or maybe a Genghis Khan; he
is very genocidal. Perhaps Hitler would be a close comparison. (Anything
which helps to defeat the Red Menace is justified...)
And Nick writes some nice speculations on the Lunar military.
I assume primary (agricultural) production is somewhat more efficient on
Glorantha than it was historically on Earth, due to magical support, thus
I assume a somewhat higher ratio of people in non-agricultural
occupations (such as the military) than that in Earth's history. When
figures are given they support this view, such as the FANTASTIC numbers
of heavy cavalry attributed to Loskalm (Population on the order of 10%+ of
that of France in 1300, but with a somewhat LARGER number of knights??)
However, due to various sources talking about the 'decadence' of the Lunar
Empire, I agree that the Provinces are represented disproportionately in
the military. The Heartland still supplies quality troops but they are
no longer the backbone of the Empire as they once were.
In our campaign the Dara Happan base unit is the 'Millenium', nominally
a thousand warriors plus support personnel. It is composed of ten centuries,
each composed of ten decades. Both infantry and cavalry are organized on
this model but I would think that a cavalry Millenium would be represented in
the board game as two counters. This type of organization is called Solar.
Each Millenium has a certain amount of magical support (Yelm priests, etc.)
and the Dara Happans also contribute to the Lunar Magic Corps.
The Daughter's army and certain other units are organized on a scale
based on 7's: a squad has seven members, seven squads make a platoon,
seven platoons a company (343 men), seven companies a legion (2401 men, two
infantry counters on the board game.) This form of organization was supposedly
introduced by the Seven Mothers as a basis for the cell structure of their
secret society before the Goddess revealed her strength; it was
institutionalized in the military by the Conquering Daughter (Hwarin Dalthippa).
The leader of each group is included in the seven; thus a squad leader
is included in the seven members. (This also dates back to the secret
society founded by the 7M and may have some mythic support if one accepts
certain theories about the relationship of the Seven and the Red Goddess.)
One squad is the command squad and includes
a sergeant; the other six members of the command squad form his staff and
include bodyguards, runners to the other units, and magical support. And
so on up the line; one company is the headquarters company.
The numbers are for a nominal strength legion; many are understrength
and some have attached auxiliaries that bring them above strength. The
Heartland Corps uses this form of organization. We have been using Roman
names for units (Maniple, etc.) but perhaps Persian ones would be better.
The Char-Un have a flexible and powerful organization also based on
tens (the Solar scheme). I use Mongol unit names (tuman, etc.) for the
units as it is pretty obvious that the Pentans (and thus the Char-Un) are
based on Mongols.
The Bat unit includes its cult, which grows during times of war. I believe
there are five priests of the Bat, a variable (small) number of Rune Lords,
and a minimum of about twenty-five Initiates who travel with the Bat. In
wartime I would guess that the number of Initiates grows to at least five
hundred.
There is much more one could say if one had more time...
-----------
Paul
PS I also support Greg's efforts to work on Glorantha, it is just hard
to work in a shifting universe. I don't really have a solution...