From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 15 Nov 1993, part 4
Precedence: junk
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: And more Dragon Pass
Message-ID:
Date: 14 Nov 93 09:00:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2310
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 2285
>Sandy said:
>[Re: lots o' stuff about Lunar troop strength]
>> Your estimates look pretty good to me. I can't imagine the Char-un
>> ever sending 1/5 of their entire population to help the Lunars fight.
>That was the point of all my caveats.
[...]
>No Way are they all
>going to head off south to fight a war in a country they've never heard of
>(unless the Ice gets real close, the Elves come back, and the Ancestors
>start talking: but that's nomad migrations for you; can't imagine the
>Lunars would *ever* encourage that).
Well, as soon as Charg is freed from the Ban, that's the way I'd send
the Char-un - all of them, and gain another ally from the east to
settle in the Char-un area. est way to deal with trouble-makers is to
use them up, and to split larger groups into smaller ones.
>Mark Sullivan writes:
>> Since the Lunar Sable folk have been a part of the empire since the
>> Assault on Glamour, I think that your 20% max mobilization may be too
>> high. Seems like nearly 350 years of exposure to Lunar culture and
>> luxuries may have softened them compared to traditional Praxians.
>Point taken. They are perhaps a bit more settled than trad. Praxians, and
>have after all had over a thousand years of cultural divergence, usually
>confined to a fairly cramped space. Anyone been to the top of the Hungry
>Plateau to see what the Sables are getting up to?
They rule Kostaddi. Those who do so don't live on the Hungry Plateau,
though, that's a place for traditionalists (and maybe for lowland
youths to receive a classical initiation, but then to return).
BTW: Arkat's Praxian allies were led by a Vorwaha Bisonrider (Uz Lore);
where in Peloria do we find the descendants of the other interim rulers
the arious Theyalan incursions on Dara Happa (Argentium Thri'ile,
Arkat's Gbaji-hunt, the EWF expansion) drew from Praxian nobility and
imposed on the Pelorian natives? Are (or were) there Rhino-, Impala-,
Bison- and Alticamelus- chieftains become nobility?
>> Same goes for the Char-un. Which may help with those *52* counters.
>Not quite so convinced by this: they are a bunch of hairy Cossacks with
>bugger all to do Up North except fight one another and sign on with the
>Lunars' Job Creation Schemes. But as my estimates are (a) crude and (b)
>irrelevant (until the wars reach Kostaddi or Erigia), it doesn't really
>matter, yet...
They're conveniently close to handle trouble in Carmania. And an Empire
that feeds citizens to chaos horrors won't shed a tear at cossacks'
atrocities, committed for the greater honour of the Moon.
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 2286
>>From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
>># Plus receiving considerable help from Maniria, e.g. Goldgotti (FA).
>Goldgotti is Manirian? Do you have a source for this? (I'd love to know
>more about the counters.)
The Dragon Pass rules booklet says on p.31: "The rest of the Free Army
collected gradually. [...] volunteers from elsewhere [...] Goldgotti, a
Merchant Prince."
Merchant Princes are important in Western Maniria. They are found in
the Holy Country (also Maniria) and in Ralios, too, but I think it is
not very probable that Ralian troops participated before the heroes
were gathered for the final battles against the Red Moon (fought on the
Saird/Dara Happan border, if I interpret KoS correctly).
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 2287
>COMMENTS ON JOERG'S DP SUGGESTIONS
>re: Magic fortresses. Having the TotRM give you an infinite magic
>factor seems a big much. How about just doubling it? Ditto for other
>magic sites.
Sounds more sensible, agreed. So these sites gain a magic factor of =.
>re: Telmori. Though the Wolfrunners are generally unfriendly to the
>other Sartarite tribes, they would NOT ally with the Lunars against a
>Prince of Sartar. They are, in fact, fanatically loyal to the House
>of Sartar. If there were a rebellion against the Lunars in which the
>rebel leader was not a Prince or Princess, all bets are off, and
>they'd probably join with the Lunars because of the moon connection.
>The ducks are also fanatically loyal to the House of Sartar. This
>dates back to ancient secret treaties made between these two groups
>and Sartar himself.
So Sandy can be Gregged, too: KoS, p.26: "... the werewolf folk turned
against Argrath, ..."
>Joerg sez:
>>All subjected to random factors, as the Empire is chaotic.
>I really hate random factors in wargames, myself, and would vote
>against this random factor business. Incidentally, the Empire's PR is
>that they can control chaos, and in addition the Empire is NOT
>chaotic -- it combines chaos with the real world. Perhaps the Empire
>should have, to make up for its shortcomings in diplomacy, a bunch of
>points they can spend to "buy" units from their exotic pile, (the
>Vampire Legion, Moon Boats, Arrolians)
Sensible alternative. Maybe randomize the availability of these troops.
:-)
>re: Trolls. IMO, the trollkin have been rated too high. Argan Argar
>troll spearmen might possibly be worth a 3-2-3-X, but untrained
>trollkin can hardly be better than 1-1-3-X. Maybe 1*-1-3-X.
The Dagori Inkarth warbands are shown as mixed bands. Cragspider's
units seem to be almost exceptional in that they split between trols
and trollkin. And her 6-6-6-X might well be uzdo, not uzko.
>> The Pharaoh would be a hero at least, with the power to return from
>> the dead on 2 to 6 on d6.
>Given my dislike for random factors ("I'd have won that fight if I
>hadn't rolled a '1' when you killed the Pharaoh.") I suggest that the
>Pharaoh always return from the dead unless he is killed in a fight by
>a Superhero or Hero or Dragon.
I didnt think of that alternative, but this (combined with Nick
Brooke's Jar-eel involved in his disappearance rumour) certainly makes
sense.
>re: Fazzur Wideread. Fazzur is no hero, and should not have the stats
>of Ethilrist. At best he's the equivalent to one of the nomad Khans
>from Nomad Gods.
Fazzur might not be a hero (i.e. no heroic escape), but he certainly is
a charismatic and able leader - therefore the (4)!! combat factor for
him and his bodyguard. Maybe leave out the brackets.
>The great Lunar innovation in combat was that they were the first
>people ever to organize magicians into military units. The Lunar
>Colleges of Magic, as portrayed in DP, were a first. The standard way
>that everyone fought in Glorantha was to disseminate their lesser
>priests, sorcerers, and shamans among their military units to provide
>them with "magic support". The Lunars, instead, grouped their
>magicians together.
>Argrath was the first guy ever to respond to this by emulating it,
>with his Magical Union. This is why Argrath was able to face the
>Lunars on a more equal basis than previous enemies. He used their own
>tactic against them.
How come the Exile magicians then? They seem to be an older institution
than Argrath's troops.
>So, you ask, what is a "normal" Gloranthan army like in wargame
>terms? It is composed of ordinary troop counters, with the only
>magic-using troops being Exotics. Special temple units that happened
>to fight together, like the Earth Shakers, might show up as a magic
>unit. Also, of course, Heroes and special magicians like the Nomad
>God Shamans strengthen you magically.
I took the Exiles and the Dragonewts as the model rather than the other
major independents, because in DP they seem normal. For the Esrolites I
already assumed less magician units, while the Hendriki knights would
be similar to Argrath's mounted magicians - individuals with magical
and fighting prowess. The Hrestoli knights of Loskalm would be so, too.
>The advantage of the old-fashioned way of doing things is that all
>your units had a slightly stronger magic factor. A few units, with a
>really high complement of magic-types, might even have a magic range
>of 0.
They also influence morale and fighting power.
>The advantage of the Lunar way is obvious, Imagine a Sartarite army
>with +1 added to all of its magic factors (well, maybe not to the
>Sartar City Militia), but without the bulk of the Magic Union -- only
>exceptional magic units that fight together like the Stormwalkers,
>Wind Children, etc. would be present as separate units. The Lunars
>would, of course, kick butt.
>Now, in Joerg's plans for Kethaela's army, this truth should be
>applied.
>Shadow Plateau is unlikely to have two units of shamans, and one
>sorcerer. Instead, they'd have the Dehori and Shades, as mentioned,
>plus probably one Castle of Lead unit with lots o magic ability
>(representing the Mistress Race and their guards). I'd give them at
>least one Zorak Zoran gang with the power to go berserk and double
>their combat power at the cost of being disrupted after the battle.
>Caladraland might have one separate magic unit of Volcano Priests for
>each major Volcano. But that's probably all, as far as magic support.
These would be less useful outside of Caladraland (where volcanic
activities are high); therefore I omitted them for the Building Wall
Battle.
>God Forgot would actually have a few magician-like units with exotic
>abilities. There's the Flying Machine unit, for instance, composed of
>insane inventors with bicycle-like or flapping-winged devices (I
>actually saw this unit in the old game for this region).
So it existed? What was its distribution? (I.e. how do I get my grubby
hands on it?)
>Rightarm Island -- probably no magicians. Maybe provide the exotic
>magic ability for the Pharaoh to control the tides or something.
>Wenelian mercenaries -- not like the Pol Joni, since more of them are
>on foot and they're wilder/less sophisticated than the Sartar City
>Militia. Maybe modeling them after the Sartar tribal units is best.
>Graymane needs to be there, too, of course. If Graymane is killed,
>probably all of them would leave, possibly pillaging as they went.
Rereading p.31 of the DP rules, I'm not so certain whether the
Barbarian Horde is Praxian or Orlanthi from Barbarian Town. Any offers?
>Esrolia has plenty of crappy militia (I think the right mix here is
>15 3-3-2-X, 25 2-2-2-X, and 20 1-1-2-X units -- mostly only good for
>garrison duty.)
Why so slow? Even Esrolites ought to be more agile than Zombies.
>For specialty troops, I suggest one each of the six
>Earth cults.
RQC names several strange Earth deities for Esrolia (one even male).
Wouldn't these be present, too?
>Wolf Pirates probably make a bad ally for the Holy Country, seeing as
>they sacked the City of Wonders at one point.
So did Harrek with Boldhome, and the Wenelians in Esrolia. They are a
powerful, but likely illoyal ally. If victory is counted after cities,
the side allying them would take two cities less into account.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: re: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <9311131648.AA28298@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 13 Nov 93 04:48:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2311
Nick Brooke, in a private message, enquired about Extension and lunar
cyclic magic. Here is how it was done in my campaign:
An Extension cast on the Full Moon lasts twice as long. However, if
the Extended spell lasts into a Crescent phase, then it (not counting
the Extension) cannot be more than 2 points. If the Extended spell
lasts into a Dark or Dying phase, it can only be 1 point (again, not
counting the Extension). Thus, a Yanafal Tarnils rune lord could
Extend his Truesword indefinitely, but Chaos Gift (2 points) could
not be extended more than 3 days if cast on the Full Moon.
Of course, none of this matters so long as you stay within the
Glowline. Then you just get your Extensions for half-price.l
But outside the Glowline, Lunar magicians cannot Extend huge spells
for exceedingly long periods. Doctrinally this makes sense, as for
them, nothing lasts forever.
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From: mcarthur@fit.qut.edu.au (Mr Robert McArthur)
Subject: Number of Lunar troops
Message-ID: <199311130641.QAA10067@fitmail.fit.qut.edu.au>
Date: 13 Nov 93 21:41:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2312
Re: Joerg's and Sandy's comment on troop strengths in DP et al
In the scenarios in DP, it states that over half of the *entire* Lunar army
was wiped out by the dragon at Old Wind; and that it took many wanes (ie. 100+
years) to restore the troop numbers. This tends to imply that
1. Sartar was an important gain and important to hold that half the lunar
army was present.
2. The lunar army is mobile across the empire so that half the army could
actually *be* there.
3. I assume the Red Emp. was there (given half the army was!) and made his
heroic escape.
4. Dragons are pretty good at destroying lunars!
5. It may explain the lack of peltasts in subsequent scenarios...gobble gobble!
or
that Greg(?) was off with fairies again translating from some Eurmal document
and that it really meant half the lunar army currently occupying the north-east
corner of a apprentice alchemist's store in Quackford. The section about the
restoration of the numbers dosen't help as, if the words are true, didn't
Argrath dismember the empire before that long (100+ years)?
Robert
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From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: New HQ for TotRM Down Under
Message-ID: <01H5BNNPEZVK95MWQ0@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 15 Nov 93 10:37:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2313
G'day all,
Tales of the Reaching Moon's Australian HQ is soon to be located at
48 Barcelona Street, Box Hill 3128 Victoria.
Upwardly mobile MOB is moving a suburb or two closer to town...
The big move takes place on November 26th. Please address any forthcoming
mail accordingly. Unsure of my new phone number yet, but e-mail address
remains the same.
Cheers
MOB
P.S. And just so this posting has some RQ/Glorantha content, I recently
received a letter from someone claiming that they had figured out the
Secret of the God Learners (with a little help, apparently, from an
unpublished document) and that they could explain it in 5 or 4 words! He
says that it is "relatively simple". Hmmm, maybe if he gave us just
a few consonants and a vowel we could play "Wheel of Fortune" (is another
name for the White Goddess Vanna?)
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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Lunar Troop Strengths
Message-ID: <931114123938_100270.337_BHB38-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 14 Nov 93 12:39:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2314
__________________
Paul Reilly wrote:
> Nick writes some nice speculations on the Lunar military.
Cheers! I enjoyed your Dara Happan and Lunar troop organisations too: the
structure in the Cradle scenario was all very well but didn't drip with
mythical resonances. Your bunches of sevens are neat, though I'd start
rounding it after reaching the 7x7 basic 'platoon': add one officer, and
you can start counting in fifties. Lunar culture is still very Dara Happan
in some ways -- especially in Imperial and Military areas -- and this way
they could cook up some excuse for why a Dara Happan "century" is split in
two -- base it on Balance, or Phases, or Carmanian Duality, or whatever you
want. (Plus, it makes it easier to justify a thousand-man unit [my
estimate] called "The XXX Phalanx"; though you could assume that all
Phalanx units go to war at half their 'book strength')
> I assume primary (agricultural) production is somewhat more efficient
> on Glorantha than it was historically on Earth, due to magical support,
> thus I assume a somewhat higher ratio of people in non-agricultural
> occupations (such as the military) than that in Earth's history...
> Due to various sources talking about the 'decadence' of the Lunar Empire,
> I agree that the Provinces are represented disproportionately in the
> military. The Heartland still supplies quality troops but they are no
> longer the backbone of the Empire as they once were.
My percentages came from Philippe Contamine's usually enjoyable "War in the
Middle Ages." He described the Barbarian invasions of the Roman Empire
thus:
: On the one hand was a society requiring the employment of all adult
: males from 15 or 16 until their physical strength deserted them, perhaps
: a fighting force of a quarter or fifth of the total population; on the
: other, a rich Empire of several tens of millions of inhabitants, just
: capable, at a ruinous cost, of raising some 500,000 to 600,00 men, of
: whom two-thirds, perhaps even three-quarters, were incapable of fighting
: a campaign -- a ratio of combatants to civilian population of the
: theoretical order of 100:1 and in practice of 400:1.
As Gloranthan practice equates to real-world theory in other spheres, I
thought I'd give the Lunars the benefit of the doubt and settle for 1%.
You've noticed the key consideration: quality. A Heartland infantry unit is
usually a 5-4-3 hoplite, while Provincial militia starts at 3-3-3. Which
would you rather have in a fight?
I agree with the general principle that Glorantha is "smaller but more
extreme" than our world. Lunar decadence rivals the Romans and Byzantines
at their worse, though the Empire is many times smaller and ought not to be
able to afford such a large class of parasites at the top.
> When figures are given they support this view, such as the FANTASTIC
> numbers of heavy cavalry attributed to Loskalm...
It's researchers like us that give Gloranthan authors such a hard time. But
then again, fantastic army sizes are OK in a Fantasy world...
NEW STUFF:
Hate cooking up rules for shield walls? Here's two spells I've cooked up
for the Hoplite Cults of Peloria, probably also available to Yelmalions:
_______________________________
SHIELD WALL: 1 point Rune magic
special range, temporal, stackable, reusable
This spell must be cast by a soldier in a Shield Wall formation. As long as
the formation holds, the soldier standing to his left will receive four
extra armour points of magical protection against any frontal attack. If
the formation is broken and later reformed within the spell's duration, the
spell's effect will resume.
________________________________
STANDFAST: variable Spirit magic
special range, temporal, active
This spell must be cast by a soldier in a Shield Wall formation standing
behind the front rank. If the soldier in front suffers a Knockback, the
distance moved is reduced by one meter for every magic point in the spell.
Naturally, any successful Knockback against a trooper in a Shield Wall will
disrupt the formation (and result in the premature termination of this
active spell).
Range for both the above spells is effectively "touch", but this contact
must be maintained throughout its duration. Of course, nobody in a Shield
Wall is able to Dodge or otherwise break ranks without screwing up the
formation and irritating his neighbours immensely (while falling down is
absolutely fatal!). I've not ruled on a minimum size for a formation, but
common sense says it won't work with much less than a half-dozen or so men
in line. That the Lunars use seven-, the Yelmalions eight-, the Dara
Happans ten-man frontages on their basic tactical units may suggest that
this minimum restriction is cultural and not "mundane" (and, BTW, the
decreasing flexibility of units seems to fit what we know about Gloranthan
cultures).
These rules are suggested for use either in conjunction with or as an
alternative to the "Two-Handed-Spear-With-Shield" rules presented in Sun
County p.43f. and Cults of Prax p.109, which do not reflect the cooperative
nature of the Hoplite formation, in which every man protects his neighbour
and supports the guys in front with a great "push" -- something like a
lethal Rugger scrum!
Comments and criticism welcome. If Morale, Berserk and Fanaticism are
"spells", why not treat other features of military life the same way?
====
Nick
====
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From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: No Saturday Daily. Sorry...
Message-ID: <9311142139.AA03525@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 14 Nov 93 23:39:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2316
This issue is the first since Friday.
Hope you all enjoyed your weekend...
Henk
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