From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 23 Nov 1993, part 2 Message-ID:Precedence: junk --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Mountains, the universe, and everything Message-ID: Date: 22 Nov 93 18:09:35 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2395 Mountains: Steve Gilham in X-RQ-ID: 2383 >Height of Wintertop >I'd got the impression that the 4000' figure was the *base* of >Wintertop, i.e. the height of the col of (the real) Dragon Pass. >Or maybe I was just trying to rationalise the two figures >together. Certainly Orlanth's Mother deserves to be more >impressive than the little hills dotting the British Isles. Yep, this goes hand in hand with the height of 5000 ft for most of Balazar south of the Elf Sea (which must be at approx. 4800 ft). Mark Sullivan in X-RQ-ID: 2390 >While poring over my recently purchased copy of River of Cradles I noticed >on the Common Knowledge section of the RoC map - >:The Block >:This giant rectilinear block of rock, 500m on a side and 2km tall... >This would seem not to overshadow earthly mountains, but it still ought to >be seen from pretty far off. >If it is two kilometers tall it doesn't compare with Wintertop's 12 >(please say it's a typo) kilometers [from p61 of Genertela Book, GoG]. I >mean just how high *is* the atmosphere? That there middle air must go up >pretty damn high or those Shakers are breathing with oxygen tanks. The Middle Air reaches up to where the Red Moon currently rests - that's how the rivalry between Orlanth and the Red Goddess _really_ started, Castle Blue was just a prelude. How high is the sky? I'd assume that it has perfect spherical shape (the solars being possessed with symmetry, and there's notthing more symmetric than a sphere) stretching over the earth and sea of Glorantha. At the gates of Dusk and Dawn it has its axis for the north-south movement during the year; these seem to lie on the far side of Sramak's river (which must be circular on the outside, to fit into the sky, and rectangular on the inside, where Gloranthan earth begins). It would be nice to think of the sky as the upper half of a sphere, and the realms of darkness (i.e. hell, or wonderhome in trollish legends) is the lower half. There must be two concentrical spheres, BTW, because the upper world lies outside the inner sphere, but hardly borders directly on the void (not my idea of a paradise, at least). (This model would "prove" that the Lunar Rune comprises the wholeness of the (outer) world. Any Irrippi Ontor takers?) All of the upper sphere is filled with air, since Umath has filled the space between his parents. It must be coldest a bit less than half way between earth and sky, between source and reflection of the heat (sky). (We know that on Glorantha it gets colder the higher one moves up the mountains, but hotter the close one gets to the sky - see southern Pamaltela.) So the height of Pole Star above earth level must be about half way between the Gates of Dusk and Dawn. The way the Blue Moon travels in one cycle would be twice this radius for the fall, plus Pi times this radius for the climb along the sphere. (The climbing time might be dependent on how close to the Blue Moon Plateau the moon rises - the closer the faster.) >Now if the Block casts a shadow that blocks the Red Moon's glow it would >seem that the umbra would lie across the Devil's Marsh. What can we >deduce, if anything, from this? Maybe Lunar priests are no more likely >than anyone else to want to visit the Marsh? This brings me to a heretical (to whom?) idea: In the description of the Silver Shadow Sultanate/Satrapy it is mentioned that the region basks in the silver shine. Does this mean that tne Red Moon is translucent, and focusses the stars' light onto the crater, after filtering out the red glow it sends out? Is this light pressure the force htat keeps that ole chunk of rock up? And how high is the Crater, how high above it is the moon? -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Nomads abroad Message-ID: Date: 22 Nov 93 18:10:17 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2396 Nomads Abroad MOB in X-RQ-ID: 2386 >David: >>1. How hated _are_ horses? (Would a band of Praxians attack someone just >>because he rode a horse?) >Yes! (Unless there's more of you than them, you're under the walls of >Pavis, or whatever) They'd do this to anyone not riding a mule, a zebra, or one of their own mounts, if the odds are good, you mean? (To the above mentioned they'd talk first, attack then...) >>2. If Praxians see someone riding their herd animal, do they automatically >>assume it was stolen? >The Bison Tribe believe that all bison in the world belong to them as >a natural right, which gives them free reign to take bison from anyone. >Of course, just like the above question, it all depends on numbers and >the situation. A band of bison riders might ask for a "present" in >return for letting you use one of their bison, if they are otherwise >well-disposed to you. Would be interesting to have one of those bison-riding Lunar nobles Sandy mentions visit Prax... >>4. What keeps Praxians in Prax? Is it the Guardian Hills? (The Six Sisters, >>seen in Troll Realms, are supposed to contain wards set up by the >>Grazers... But they don't seem to have stopped Argrath's allies, or the >>raids on Tarsh during the interregnum.) Is it the inhabitants? I imagine >>that Sartar is more fertile and full of good grazing, and the Praxians >>would want to use it. >The Praxian plains and the wastes (once you get past Vulture's Country) >contain sufficient grazing for the tribes. There would be two reasons >why the Praxians don't move into Sartar/Dragon Pass. First, the terrain >and climate does not suit their nomadic way of life, and second, it's better >just to ride in and out of place on periodic raids, taking stuff you >can't get in Prax (ie. metals, luxury goods) than trying to take over >the place permanently. Jaldon Toothmaker occasionally appears to lead the >Praxians in to Dragon Pass on great raids, but they are not mass migrations. >A mass migration might take place if something happens to the nomads in >their homeland (just like the various barbarian movements in >the dark ages), but the nomads seem more likely to move east into the >unpopulated Wastes than try to crack the tough nut that is Sartar. Traditionalism keeps most in Prax. Those not so tradition bound do not hestitate to settle elsewhere, as did a lot of Praxians in Peloria after the Gbaji-Wars. These were land grants, though, issued by Arkat. If anyone is ging to grant a Praxian tribe lordship over some native farmer folk, I'd bet that about 80% of that tribe would accept - this is not different from how they trade the oasis folk, only the oasises (sp?) are bigger, and wealthier. >Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 2326 >> I know for a fact that there is at least one Lunar dynasty of nobles >> who traditionally train bisons to ride. However, they're good Lunars, >> and only the Irrippi Ontor sages in town know why that dynasty has >> that custom. I'm sure there are other traces of such activity. >Which town/city? And does anybody have information about more Lunar settlements than those shown in Genertela Book? Dara Happa must be full of smaller cities, and Peloria will have its share, too. Mark Sullivan in X-RQ-ID: 2388 >> I reiterate my question of a few days ago: does anyone >> know how living near (rich, fertile) Peloria has changed >> the Sable Tribe of the Hungry Plateau? Especially since >> they became rulers of Kostaddi and took over the City of >> Two Towers. >Maybe they have become dichotomous. Wealthy, decadent rulers >inundated with the luxuries of empire ruling from the City >of Two Towers while they maintain a core of tough, hardened >warrior/herders on top of the Hungry Plateau. The HPers serve >as soldiers acquiring wages to send home (from which the ruling >nobility takes a healthy cut, oops just taxes). The Kostaddi >rulers may use the HPers as a sort of Praetorian guard (actually >maybe more of a Varangian guard) to maintain their control of >the lowland farmland. >The rulers control the HPers through two means: >1) by the use of bribes, I mean gifts, to the HP clan chiefs >consisting of the usual gold, jewelry, et al along with >arms, armor, and foodstuffs. >2) by controlling the strategic location of Two Towers they >have a lock on trade and can shut off the transport of food >which the HPers population has grown to need. >All this is merely speculation on my part and has no imprimature. Some more speculation: The nobility keeps its young people "different" from the other courtiers by sending them to their wild cousins on the Hungry Plateau for initiation, say for at least three years. Likewise the old and frail will be sent to Two Towers City to bolster the mass of courtiers. Thus, Kostaddi Sultanate will have a total population of Sable folk somewhere in the 60,000, Hungry Plateau included. Of course there will be traditionalist clans who despise their city-dewlling kin, and vice versa, similar to the Spanish and north-African Moors. The statement that the Hungry Plateau sables moved there in the Dawn Age makes them mercenaries of the Theyalan First Council, participating in the Battle of Argentium Thri'ile (Dorastor p. 7: "Instrumental in the battle were the Praxian animal riders, whose leaders received grants of land in Peloria and began several dynasties of Pelorian animal-riders."), and maybe a second wave in the wake of Arkat's human allies who scoured Peloria while the hero and his troll allies scorched Aggar, Talastar and Dorastor (Vorwaha Bisonlord, Dorastor p.13). This would make most "native" Pelorian nobility Praxian in descent, I'd suppose - Duke Raus has just gone back to the roots. Any takers? Lately I have also reread the information on the horse nomads of Pent, who can be found elsewhere, too - the Char-un are an undisputed case, the Second Age Golden Horse tribe in Prax, too, but their descendants are a bit dubious - I believe that we find them in three places: In Prax the Zebra riders stem from this tribe (see Pavis Box for their history); in Beast Valley the Centaurs seem to be Delecti's transmutation of parts of this tribe, made a real race by divine intervention through Ironhoof, and a gift from the dragons; and the Grazelander tribes tell a tale how they descend from the pain centaurs, remade into their former forms (They might as well be Traditionalist Pentian horse riders who moved in and shrewdly made up this story to be allowed to go where no humans were allowed to go). Any evidence against these speculations? -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: eosgg@raesp-farn.mod.uk (Geoff Gunner) Subject: Moon and Shadow Message-ID: <9311221932.AA09577@raesp-farn.mod.uk> Date: 22 Nov 93 19:32:43 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2397 Who says that the light of the moon has to be visible to the Lunar magician ? Do they loose their Rune Magic when indoors ? Under a tree ? Or even wearing a big, floppy cape ? (' Arrg, it's a Naked Lunar Priest, Run away before he casts a spell !'). Wyrms - I'd have put them at a stage PAST dragonewts; perhaps those dragonewts who have left the Wheel but still have some earthly ties to work off ? Sort of a 'practice dragon' stage. About RQ material - is there any copyright law on collecting stuff to be published electronically ? My thought were - nominate a few people / sites to collect info on certain regions, to edit the stuff to minimum waffle. Submit to peer review, add to general archive. I know - sounds too centralised and orderly. But think of all the RQ material published out there, that are lost / buried for ever. Ideas ? Geoff. --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: I don't know anything about *that*, but... Message-ID: <931122195621_100270.337_BHB78-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 22 Nov 93 19:56:21 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2398 _____________ Newton wrote: > Boggles: a Boggle is a disorder spirit. Beyond that all I know is > (others') apparently unofficial speculations. There apparently is a > strong resemblance to Toon characters. I don't know anything about Toon. But Boggles are a Disorderly race, not "just" spirits (though, given their basic nature, they probably *can* be spirits -- or anything else -- from time to time). There's a Castle of Boggles on top of the Plateau of Statues, but I can't honestly recommend the decor or cuisine. There's a myth of the Boggles in WF#5 (Celestial Court myths), which ought to be in Wyrms Footprints when that happens, and some stuff about them in the Prosopaedia (under Ratslaff, I think). They mostly work for Uleria, these days, but obviously wouldn't be committed to that... > I would like to know more about Tada (beyond the info published in > Griffin Mtn). Also, how big is his tumulus? I don't know anything about the tumulus' height, though being the biggest thing on a basically flat plain can't be all that difficult. As is the case with Wintertop, the apparent height of the "mountain" is enhanced by the lack of surrounding peaks. Tada was a son or follower of Genert (I imagine), and was the leader of the Tada-Shi, first human inhabitants of Prax in the Golden Age. In modern (WB&RM/DP) terms he would be rated as a Superhero. Among his Godtime feats, he slew and skinned Basmol and helped hide Eiritha from Death > Artifacts of Tada's are carried around by Praxian shamans and priests; > what's the relationship? Tada was chopped apart into lots of pieces in the Darkness: some of these, called the Grisly Portions, are powerful mojo on the Plains of Prax, and turned up in Nomad Gods: the Mask, Cudgel, and Sandals spring to mind. NB: his name is pronounced "ta-DAAA!", like the vocal accompaniment to a stage magician's drum-roll. And "Waha" is a war-whoop, "WAAAAAA-ha!". For those who needed to know... > About Jaldon Toothmaker: He was born in a bison rider's tent, accord- > ing to the Pavis book. What's he doing riding a horse (albeit skeletal) > and leading Pol-Joni in Dragon Pass? Although Jaldon must have essentially founded the modern Cult of Waha, he has been exiled from the Plains of Prax for some crime, sin or taboo. Can't remember what that was, offhand. Remembering that exiled Praxians aren't allowed to ride their own tribal animals any more, perhaps a guy thoroughly banished from the Way of Waha and Eiritha can't ride *any* Praxian beast. Hence the peculiar mount. Just a suggestion... I'd take it further, but don't want to be accused of flogging a dead horse. The Pol-joni are the Praxians who live nearest to Dragon Pass, so they are the ones who can summon Jaldon most easily. (Yes, as nomads go, they seem to be pretty constrained in their range, sticking to the Better Place around Jaldon's Point). But Jaldon will accompany any Praxian raiding party. What animals do Argrath's Praxian secret societies (Bullocks, Twin Spears and Sword Brothers) ride? A pan-tribal mix? Or are they all Horse-riders, too, perhaps being banished, rendered unclean, or liberated from prejudice through their association with Argrath White Bull? > While reading the Aeneid I came across a reference to a Horn Gate, > which Aeneas used to get out of the Underworld. Any resemblance to > the Gloranthan Horn Gate? Turn the Prax map in RQ2 or NG sideways, so the East edge is at the top of the page. Then look at the hills and associated place names. There's a description of Horn Gate oasis in RoC p.45f. which says the old gates were ripped down ages ago. But they're probably still there on the Spirit Plane if you're HeroQuesting. I can't think of any Gloranthan myth offhand that uses Dreams (as HeroQuests and spirit journeys seem to cover most of the same territory), but I'd imagine you can do what you like with Horn Gate. As long as you don't make it into another Dungeon Complex... ____________ John Medway: >> Tarshite unit -- as you'd expect, Heartland officers often abbreviate >> and refer to their Native allies as "'shite troops". > Are you sure about that 'e'? Two nations, divided by a common language... Spelling and pronunciation with an "e" is an acceptable variant in the Queen's English (though I can't recall her ever speaking that particular word at our frequent tea-parties), used for emphasis or assonance. > Can Dragonewts & Co. call for Divine Intervention? I hope not: they hardly seem to need it! ___________________________ Mark Sullivan noticed that: > Sun County, which I just picked up, states on page 45: > "Templar units are organized into 64-man units called > 'squares' or 'sixty-fours' like the Lunar armies." > This quote implies that the Lunar Army uses 64 man units. > Is there any particular reason to create a different model > for the Lunar Army? Yup: sheer joi de vivre! Variety is the spice of Gloranthan life. Also, you'll find a different organisational model in the "Cradle" scenario in Pavis; since neither this nor the Sun County one is deeply attractive, I feel no compunction about broadcasting my own. Use whatever you want. > If the Sun County Templar organization is typical of traditional > Yelmic military i.e. Dara Happan organization, perhaps the Lunar > Army (with its Dara Happan influence) has this same organization. > The military mind is typically very traditional and its hard to > see a change in the army structure just to get a seven in the TOE. I'm not so sure. The Dara Happans use tens, I feel certain. If this can be changed to eights-to-sixteens by the Sun Domers, as you point out, I don't see why the Lunars shouldn't whittle it down to sevens. You'd get the same increase/decrease in flexibility as between real world hoplites, hypaspists and legionaries, with the Lunar Army having the most "flexible" units. I enjoyed your thoughts on the corrupt Sable Sultan of Kostaddi, oppressing both his peoples; very good for local colour and politics. You said > All this is merely speculation on my part and has no imprimatur. -- Join the club! _________________ Jim Rogers asked: > GoG states that only a few cults give Lords the 1d10 Divine Intervention > ... I can't see the rhyme or reason for this ... Do you GM with this, or > change? I'm still a closet believer in rolling 1D10 for DI for almost anyone who's in God's good books, including all Rune Priests and Lords. Or maybe 1D10 for Lords, 1D20 for Priests? Or rolling D100 against the POW + RunePower pool of any Priest? ... etc. As it's a while since I GM'd, and I tend to be harsh and sarcastic when those "mechanical" calls for DI come up (if it's not heroic, you can just put the dice back down...), I've not needed to come up with a definite fix for this. Like Jim, I imagine, I started playing RuneQuest under RQ2, and my view of Glorantha is consequently slanted -- I *believe* that the current rules are downplaying the amount of DI available to Priests as compared to Lords and Initiates. Though I was very happy with a suggestion posted here quite a long time ago that Divine Intervention rolls be made on D100 (or maybe a D10?) against your number of years in the cult (perhaps to a maximum chance of POW, or *perhaps* losing points of POW proportionate to the success of the roll). This rewards elderly retainer types at the expense of newly-joined sprogs. A successful roll would also eat up years in "credit" equal to the roll made -- meaning you could make DI far more commonly available, as the mechanics of it would make appeals rare in any case, and repeated successes unlikely. POW gain chances may come and go, but you'll only notch up a year's cult experience once a year... I'll try throwing that one back out to the world at large... _______________ Malkioni stuff: Just came across this in Cults of Prax: : [Daka Fal, p.14] : Other distant lands (such as Seshneg in the Dawn Ages) developed this : form of worship [i.e: Ancestor Worship] until they made their ancestors : surpass the mighty gods in power, or else reduced the immortals into : mere superhuman heroes or multi-national ancestors. Such developments : are outside the immediate scope of this book... That's pretty interesting, sez Nick. Loads of implications. ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail) Subject: Rune Lords; Pol-Joni; Block Message-ID: <199311222009.AA07781@radiomail.net> Date: 22 Nov 93 20:09:27 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2399 >From: JLROGERS@utkvx.utk.edu (Jim Rogers) >GoG states that only a few cults give Lords the >1d10 Divine Intervention - Humakt, Kyger Litor, Orlanth, Seven Mothers, >Uleria [why do they have Lords?], Yelm, Yemalio, Zorak Zoran. I can't see >the rhyme or reason for this, and is a change from all cults advantage to >Lords in RQ2. Any explanations? Justifications? Most cults don't have Rune Lords any more. Uleria probably has skill-based priestesses because there's not a wide variety of rune magic they'd need to have instead? And because the Courtesan skill can be used for more than 15 minutes at a time... >The tribal map of >Sartar in Issue # 6, despite the cryptic "missing tribe" Greg says the "missing tribe" is the Pol-Joni. From: sullivam@mlc.lib.mi.us (Mark Sullivan -- Michigan Library Consortium) > The Block > This giant rectilinear block of rock, 500m on a side and 2km tall... Thanks, Mark! Mt Rainier is about 4.4 km tall, and I could barely see that from Othello. So the Block is probably not visible from anywhere it'd be obscured by mountains (i.e. most of Sartar). --------------------- From: gbailey@aol.com Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <9311221828.tn180001@aol.com> Date: 22 Nov 93 23:28:10 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2401 unsubscribe ---------------------