From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 26 Nov 1993, part 2
Message-ID:
Precedence: junk
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From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: Then again ...
Message-ID: <9311252012.AA15801@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 25 Nov 93 20:12:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2445
charles gregory fried in X-RQ-ID: 2391
was helpful with:
>> Someone (John?) asked about shield designs. What I did for this one was to
>> go to the library and get out some books on Greek and Near East art. A lot
>> ...
>> far is a dophin that I pulled off pretty well. There are some fantastic bull
>> designs to be found. Others include Gorgon's head (the Greek gorgon, not
>> AD&D!), crabs, birds, cups... try it!
I was ungrateful with:
>> Sure, but the question was what belonged on a *Lunar's* shield, or on a Sun
>> Domer's, ...
>>
>> I don't figure many of them have ever heard of a dolphin, let alone seen one.
>> Likewise, the trident, also popular in Greek art would look out of place. Now
>> for Esrolians, however...
Then again ...
Snake Pipe Hollow (AH), p.35, box entitled "The Boat"
"carved with a river-dolphin head, like the statues."
OK, so dolphins are cool, then.
Thanks.
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| john_medway@zycor.lgc.com | Landmark Graphics Corp | 512.292.2325 |
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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Cross my palm with silver...
Message-ID: <931125213714_100270.337_BHB39-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 25 Nov 93 21:37:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2446
_____________________
Graeme Lindsell said:
> Though some people say predictive magic is impossible in Glorantha
> due to the effects of Time, obviously the Gods and Heroes who are
> outside Time can see the future with ease.
A lot of people have trouble with this. I think you're confusing fortune-
telling "predictive" magic (which is, of course, impossible) with finding
unusual ways of telling what the Great and Powerful intend to do to the
world. So Prince Snodal sneaked a look at Zzabur's Master-Plan (or at the
Altinelans' copy of a leaked version of it). That isn't telling the future,
any more than the assassins lying in wait by the roadside have pierced the
veil of time by finding out in advance their victim's planned itinerary.
After all, it didn't happen that way, did it?
The Roman practice of Augury is entirely reasonable for Glorantha. You
aren't asking, "Will we win today?". You are asking, "Have we done all we
can to get you Gods on our side?". And that's a question the Gods can
easily answer (per standard RQ3 definitions). Similarly, Astrology might
amount to little more than determining what magical forces were most potent
-- a more sophisticated version of "Don't go climbing Condor Crags on
Windsday".
Nobody in Glorantha can "see the future". But a lot of people can recognise
the way things are tending, spot mythically-determined patterns reenacting
themselves, or work hard to implement their own part of the Great Design.
Like, it doesn't take a genius to predict the poisoning of King Glyptus in
Elkoi as soon as his Lunar wife straightens out the succession... Like, if
a cult of millions starts wanting a White Moon, it's a fair bet one will
come along sooner or later, given Glorantha's tendency towards
wish-fulfilment.
_________________
Ed Wallman had a:
> QUERY ON BLUE MOON
> I have never seen anything in print on the length of time between tides
> other than to say they occur now and then and what happens. Could some-
> one give a description of this?
Apparently there's an entirely random, one to six day cycle between high
tides. In a game, roll a D6 every high tide to work out when the next one
will come. [Source: Elder Secrets, p.44]. How this cycle relates to the
height of the tide is described there, in the Prosopaedia, and in Troll
Cults. Presumably sailors can make World Lore rolls to "guesstimate" what
the speed of the next tidal cycle will be (i.e. low to high in one day or
six), based on the speed with which the waters are rising -- assuming all
high tides to be of roughly similar height (though we know of course that
there is some variation).
Some doubt in this interpretation: Elder Secrets says it takes "one to six
days to climb to the centre of the sky", but doesn't make it clear if this
is days counted from nadir to zenith, or counted from when the Blue Moon
reaches the edge of the sky after a (lengthy?) transit of the Underworld.
I suspect the former: it's simpler by far. Though a 2D6 day tidal cycle
(averaging seven days) has obvious numerological attractions...
Perhaps Sandy could clarify this?
Speaking of whom,
___________
Sandy said:
> Your article impelled me to give one of the more important reasons
> for climbing Wintertop, beyond a number of Heroquests that start or
> end here -- if you go up the right (magic) way, it looks DOWN on the
> Red Moon, and you can jump over to it.
I think that's "Top of the World" you're thinking of. But then again, these
big mountains are all much of a muchness, magically speaking...
COLEMAN: "Well, Broyan, you're obviously on Top of the World right now."
BROYAN: "Certainly am! And as for Argrath 'Gazza' Dragonspear, I imagine
in a little while he'll be over the Moon..."
{apologies for my quirky Brit humour}
Your earlier point about the distinction between the magical (12 km) and
mundane (*far* more reasonable) height of Wintertop was well made, IMHO. It
appears from this and the mountain-heights printed in Elder Secrets that,
speaking "magically", the Red Moon must hang somewhere between ten and
twenty kilometers above the world. With the Sky Dome having a radius of
circa 20,000 km (guesstimated from large-scale maps of Glorantha), this
isn't all that impressive. (Another proof of the folly of the Lunar Way).
___________________
Ian McCreery asked:
> If I was interested in starting a RuneQuest campaign, what books/
> supplements would I need... which ones should I get...??
I hope you are!
If you have nothing else (other than the rules), get "River of Cradles" and
"Sun County" for a good grounding in Gloranthan culture, religion and
magic. The setting of Civilised Prax is described well enough for campaign
purposes (the Nomads may pose problems, but hopefully Sandy will keep
leaking useful details), while there are scenarios in both those products.
If you want an *excellent* starting scenario, get "Shadows on the
Borderlands" too and try running "Gaumata's Vision". Yelmalion Sun County
is a good background for players who are new to Glorantha, as it's highly
parochial, xenophobic and isolated: you don't need to know anything about
foreigners other than how horrible and ignorant they are, and you always
follow orders (which can lead into easily controllable scenarios).
Not knowing your background, players, or previous campaigning experience,
this is of course just a suggestion. But Prax is the best-described setting
for RuneQuest Glorantha. Any problems you have with it, post them here.
____________________
Colin Watson opined:
> Mountaineering with bronze-age equipment seems close to madness IMHO..
Seconded. Though I belong to the Robert E Howard school of plausibility...
______________________________
Frederic Moll spread the word:
> Wonderful news for DP Fans... The French version of Dragon Pass is out
> in French stores under the name "La Guerre des Heros".
I've seen the draft counter art for this, and by rights it should be a
beautiful product. Soon as I can get on a ferry, I'm off for my copy!
(Please, does anyone know any good Paris/Calais/Boulogne games shops, or
have a mail-order address for these people?). *Everything* I've seen by
Oriflam has been lavishly, lovingly produced: they put Avalon Hill's older
(paper book) stuff to shame, and still shine alongside the new
"Renaissance" products. If only they could do English translated
versions...
_____________________
David Dunham queried:
> What's the meaning of Humakt Geas #10 "accept no magical healing at
> all?" Can the Humakti cast healing on himself? Can his allied spirit
> cast it? What happens if he's unconscious and it's cast on him?
Heh, heh, heh... Here's a suggestion. Same thing as happens if he's dead
and someone raises him... the Humakti goes all out against the guy who
brought him back / unwelcomely healed him, and then (after killing /
wounding his "benefactor") he takes the damage again.
No, you're right: I don't like Humakti much. But twisting and wriggling in
order to be Healed is grotesque, and would certainly invite a visit from
Swordbreaker in my game. As gamemaster, decide whether "accept" will mean
"at all" or "from other people" in your game, tell the players, then
enforce it harshly. Ignorance is no defence: an unconscious Humakti can get
himself into *real* trouble.
====
Nick
====
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From: sullivam@mlc.lib.mi.us (Mark Sullivan -- Michigan Library Consortium)
Subject: Questions and still more military stuff!
Message-ID:
Date: 25 Nov 93 15:04:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2448
Sandy asked for questions. So...
How about more information on (in order):
Praxian tribal culture and customs.
From Nomad Gods: More information on the following
Bolo-Lizard Folk, Cannibal Cult, Basmoli Berserkers, the Spirit of
Darkness called the White Princess, and Hyena.
That would be a nice start. Also don't totally forget Palmaltela.
A few posts ago I asked if there was anything we could do to expedite the
publication of Prax pack. If you wrote it and someone publishes it, I'll
buy it. Who do I tell?
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Nick Brooke about Gloranthan stuff in X-RQ-ID: 2433
> Mark Sullivan asked:
>> Nick, could you explain why you are certain of this. Where does
>> Dara Happan use of ten come from?
> It's prominent in Greg's latest Dara Happan writings. Will that
> do?
I guess so. Of course now I wonder why Greg is sure that they use
tens.
I am actually curious since Cults of Prax assigns this sort of
decimal structure to Humakti units. This structure (for Humakti's)
is a relic of the EWF (see previous response to my question on this
from Sandy P.). It seems odd that the Dara Happans and their
enemies would use decimal military organizations. If the Pentans
are analogous to Mongols and also share their base ten army
structure, we would have three different (and inimical) cultures
with different types of armies all sharing the same decimal
organization. This seems too much of a coincidence to me.
> On flexibility: good point about sevens being indivisible. But if
> your basic tactical unit is a 7x7 square, associated with another
> identical unit (per my 50x2x10 model), you can manoeuvre troops
> in bodies which are half the size of a clunky Dara Happan
> century. I was thinking of the Roman manipular tactics for
> shuffling troops in blocks rather than ranks/files.
True you can maneuver blocks better, but you are *stuck* with
blocks. Well trained troops (Spartans, Macedonians, and *Romans*)
could change the dimensions of the blocks. This option is not
really available to the Lunars. Also how the heck do they march on
roads? Seven wide is a pretty wide column for anything except a
major highway.
> If you want a depth comparable to a thicker phalanx, start
> doubling up those squares.
Again you are stuck with multiples of 7. Seven, fourteen, or
twenty-one deep seems unflexible. Also, you can't make your
formation any thinner than 7 deep without breaking up the blocks or
having uneven files.
> Again, remember that the Roman legions could have beaten the crap
> out of the Lunars in a fair (no magic) fight.
So I hear, but such comparisons seem difficult or irrelevant at
best. Sort-of like saying that Ceasar's Xth Legion would have
beaten WWII British Highlanders in a fair (no gunpowder) fight.
What's important is how the units compare to other units in
Glorantha ... Unless someone is thinking of transporting Crassus'
lost legion to Glorantha (or vice versa). And if this were the end of my
post this would bring to mind a really bad pun about Parthian shots...
> I can think of no evidence that "the Lunar formation is LESS
> flexible compared to the Dara Happan or Sun Domer formations",
> and I would be surprised if anyone thought it was ("More
> inflexible than the Dara Happans..." -- what an accusation!).
I disagree. I think the set up you envision has certain advantages
over a phalanx on broken ground, but seems to be less flexible in
other situations, and very awkward on roads/columns.
> Lighter, perhaps. Compare the counter factors for a Sun Dome
> Templar (with its special defensive factor) to those for the
> Lunar Phalanx.
Sun Dome 5-5* -3-X back {3-3-2-X}
*MgF means Sun Domers double CF on defense.
Phalanx 5-4-3-X back {3-2-2-X}
Well they seem very similar. The Sun Domers have a somewhat higher
(5 vs 4) Magic Factor which I presume is due to the Lunars
concentrating more of their magic in the College of Magic. Attack
and movement are the same. Biggest difference is the Sun Domer's
doubled defence; probably due to their use of the longer pikes. It
seems to me that the units are almost identical. This certainly
doesn't refute my thesis that their organizational structures are
similar.
Also according to DP p30 the Lunar army is "trained to fight in a
phalanx, ranging in depth from ten to sixty men or women." Kind of
undercuts both our arguments. I choose to believe 60 is an
exageration or just for special situations. That seems too
unwieldy unless the Lunars are using assault columns, which I think
is unlikely.
I think the sevens idea is nice for numerological reasons, but I
don't buy it from a tactical/mechanics point of view. I think the
generals decide on units/tactics not the priests and generals are
going to decide based on tradition and pragmatism (in that order).
Much like your use of earth cultural analogies for Glorantha, I
like to use earth military parallels. Since the backbone of the
Lunar army (IMHO) is the Pelorian hoplite, I use the model of the
Greek hoplite.
If one wants sevens in the Lunar army it seems to me that they
would work better at a higher organizational level. Maybe seven
companies to a regiment. Composed of 6 line and 1 headquarters
company. Then you could have a Roman-like organization with either
two rows of 3 companies each or 3 rows of 2 companies each and the
headquarters company as a command element and tactical reserve.
-----------
Note to all:
Thanks for pointing out the irritating =20 errors. I often don't
reread my posts, so I didn't notice these the first time around.
I hope that I have corrected the problem.
* Mark Sullivan *
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