Bell Digest v940201p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 01 Feb 1994, part 1
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Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: mleseth@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (Mike Leseth)
Subject: Address change
Message-ID: <199401311427.IAA11816@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Date: 31 Jan 94 02:27:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2951

Hello, I have changed my account, and would appreciate it if my address could
be changed from
		mleseth@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu
to
		mleseth@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu


		Thanks
		   
 		    Mike Leseth

---------------------

From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: re: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <9401311427.AA03674@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 31 Jan 94 02:27:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2952

Jonathan Eyre asks:

>LANDS of DAWN/DUSK...Where can I find info about these parts of  
>Glorantha? 


Hardly anywhere. Luathela is the land of Dusk, and Vithela is the  
land of Dawn. The inhabitants of Luathela are the purple-skinned  
Luathelans who are known to be violent and dangerous, plus they are  
all fairly recent descendents of the Gods. One shipful of them  
managed to destroy the whole Seshnela peninsula. Vithela is a  
mysterious place where Kralori go when they die, if they're lucky. 


>Are they one >of the places where the Hero Plane touches the real  
>world?

Vithela, definitely, since you can sail by it and see it and still  
known you're in the real world. Luathela maybe a bit less obviously,  
since you actually have to sail for some distance, and maybe use a  
magical boat to reach it. 


Robert MacArthur sez: 

> Now, looking at the nomad gods counters the Founder is 10-11-10-*   
>(or something close since I am at "work" :-)  Recalling Cults of  
>Prax Waha writeup we have the Summon Founder spell summon a spirit  
>with power 40-110, and strength+size = 10* the summoners.

I strongly recommend against reading too much into the Cults of Prax  
writeup re: Nomad Gods. The two groups of stats described weren't  
ever meant to be used together -- Summon Founder was supposed to get  
a spirit that would be impressive to RQ players, and the Nomad Gods  
Founder was intended to provide a counter useful to the boardgame. 




---------------------

From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: cannibalism
Message-ID: <9401311549.AA12084@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 31 Jan 94 05:49:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2953




Okay, here's one to put a flame up somebody's nightie:

Are the Praxian tribes cannibalistic?  Now, I do NOT mean dietary cannibals.
However, do they practice ritual cannibalism--eating portions of a dead
foe to partake of strength, bind the spirit, etc.?

I know that several sources state that the Praxians are not cannibals and that
apprehensions of cannibalism are due to the mistaken identification of Herd
Men as Humans, but could not these statements be those of pro-Praxian
apologists or taken from simple outright lies?  

The reason I ask this is that the Praxians are based, to some extend upon
Amerindian cultures--or so it appears, and several of these cultures were
cannibalistic.  

(Example:  The Ottawas practiced ritual cannibalism, which was heartily
disliked by their allies, the Eries and the Delawares.  The Delawars also
disliked the Mohawks for the same reason--calling them "Maqua", which means
"man-eaters")


---------------------

From: ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de (ngl28)
Subject: "THE JOERG STRIKES BACK
Message-ID: <5492*_S=ngl28_OU=rz_PRMD=uni-kiel_ADMD=d400_C=de_@MHS>
Date: 31 Jan 94 19:10:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2954

Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 2936
(Joerg nitpicks at Sandy, part 5)

>NAME FIX NEEDED:

>Some people persist in spelling the dominant Genertelan racial type  
>"Wareran". Despite possible misprints of which I am not aware, the  
>name is "Wereran". I am in hopes that this misspelling can be  
>corrected before it reaches the level of "Pharoah/Pharaoh", "Lhankor  
>Mhy/Lankhor Mhy", or "Kahn/Khan". 

Are you sure? The spelling I used appears consistently in the Genertela Box, 
and as well in a fragment of an old Wyrms Footnote Nick Brooke provided.
There the name is derived from Warera Triolina, mother of Malkion.

>The Vadeli are considered racially Wereran, as are the Brithini. The  
>skin color does not reclassify them any more than the near-black skin  
>of the Dravidian Hindus makes them a non-Caucasian group. Other  
>features, such as characteristic facies, hair texture, etc. clearly  
>show that the Vadeli are "true", if aberrant, Wererans. 

Then does this race have anything to do with descent from Wrera 
Triolina? or did the Westerners call it after their myth of genesis?

>Joerg Baumgartner sez:

>[I said that the only native Genertelan earth culture was the  
>Praxian]
>>You forget the Tarshite and Saird native earth cults.

>I don't view these as "real" cultures, but as aberrations from the  
>norm. There's no doubt such earth-oriented groups all over Peloria  
>and Kralorela, but I think all of them stem from from an original  
>Storm or Sun culture. Of course, I know that the Storm and Sun cults  
>themselves are Godtime "conquerors" of a pre-existing Earth culture,  
>but I still maintain that the Praxian culture is the only earth  
>culture in Genertela that stems right from the Godtime without having  
>been "conquered" by some other dominant way for generations of time. 

The way I look at it, in the Golden Age Prax and its earth deities were 
conquered by Storm Bull (and his sons, if he had any from intercourse 
before meeting Eiritha, which I think most likely in light of Morak's 
existence). He was tamed by earth later (as was Orlanth). His now minor 
role in society is due in part to the fact that the eternal battle still 
rages on and that his attention is somewhat diverted by that. 

>Waha is manifestly an Earth God, and Storm Bull, far from being a  
>kingly leader, is in a more-or-less subservient role -- much much  
>less important and valuable than his mate Eiritha. 

To me this sounds exactly what the Esrolian queens tell about Barntar, 
Orlanth, and Eiritha, respectively.


>Brief Notes on Gloranthan Races:

>The Brithini are sometimes claimed to be the only "pure" humans, and  
>philosophers that buy this theory sometimes put them apart and  
>categorize them as a different race. The Malkioni of Jrustela and  
>western Genertela are clearly just Wererans, and were not dissimilar  
>to the barbarian inhabitants of Ralios at the Dawn. No doubt they'd  
>interbred with the locals, which might be one reason they were so  
>willing to rebel with Hrestol against the oppressive Brithini faith. 

There seem to be myths (not of _my_ making) that Malkion came into the Kingdom 
of Logic and was educated by the humans there.  Since most Malkioni regard 
the prophet also as their distant ancestor (the Stygians may be an 
exception to this, but compare Wreran as name for the race), these 
must be somebody else. Note that by marriage with the children of Malkion 
these became the ancestors of Brithini and Malkioni as well.

The Brithini ability of staying alive indeterminately if denying to reproduce 
seems to me as the heritage of the KoL inhabitants, which is barely 
thinned in the Brithini, but thoroughly thinned in conventional Malkioni.


>>How come there are apparently Agimori Hsunchen? (seeing as they were  
>>made by Lodril and Trickster)

>Reason One -- cynical) because all the tales of human origin in  
>Gloranthan mythology are false false false. 

Nah, I don't like it. They might have got certain parts of it wrong, but I 
don't think they are outright false.

>Reason Two -- Doraddi) because the beast-mothers that wanted to spawn  
>humans naturally emulated the local variety (i.e., Agimori). 

And she got Trickster's mold?

>Reason Three -- God-Learner) because the Hsunchen folk of Pamaltela  
>have interbred with the Agimori over the years. 

Unlikely if the Telmori rules for interbreeding with outsiders apply.

>Someone (no name given) says:
Joerg again...
>The Giant Cradle:

If the girl is Gonn Orta's child, who is the mother? Sa Mita?

(I had enough trouble imagining the mating of Sa Mita with Boshbisil, who 
has twice her height. BTW, what are the giants' views of privacy?)

>The magic "good" giants, like Gonn Orta and Thog who raised the walls  
>of Pavis, are a different species, and they are the guys who send out  
>the giant cradles. They are almost extinct, now, or turned into  
>mountains or hills. (remember the Nine Good Giant Mountains?) The  
>disappearance of the Gold Wheel Dancers in the First Age pretty much  
>put paid to their breeding opportunities, though they were able to  
>keep up some breeding into the Second Age. 

Are they the firstborn children of Annilla (and the unnamed husband from 
whose dead body she bore the Blue Moon)? The giants who fought the fought 
the dragons of old?

Then they might have the same powers as those dragons: to go sleeping as a 
feature of the landscape, and to be awakened by those who know the rituals, 
similar to Orlaront Dragonfriend's performancce at the Sartar temple of 
the Reaching Moon. "Those are not dead who eternally lie..." sorry, wrong 
myth 

>I'm not sure whether Sa Mita or Hen Cik are "tame" "bad" giants, or  
>young "good" giants. In the latter case, despite the claims of  
>Griffin Mountain, they are obviously much much older than 80 years,  
>and must be at least 700 years old. Or more. 

Or they are the lesser breed, due to circumstances, as happened to teh 
trolls?

>>Does Thog still roam the Rockwoods?

>I don't know. I guess I always figured he was killed in battle. 

In the Pavis story we are only told that Joraz Kyrem first takes out one of 
his eyes at Pavis, then rips off his left arm (which still can be found 
just south of the Nine Good Giant mountains as Thogsarm hill or so). After 
that, Thog limps off into the Rockwoods.


---------------------

Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 2934

>Also, in Blessed Torang his Lunar phase, the Dying Moon, comes on Godsday, 
>which I'd associate with the Law rune, which is after all the rune of the 
>Great Compromise (cf. RQ Dailies last summer and "Codex #1" for my thoughts 
>on variable Lunar phases).

I like the philosophical implications of this:

The only way the Red Moon embodies Law is when Dying.

For the Red Moon, the Compromise is to die.



John Medway in X-RQ-ID: 2939

John, my first attempt to reply to you wrt regimental magic bounced. Could 
you give me an address that won't?

>Damn, need to call up Wizard's Attic, I suppose.

Could someone kindly repost how to contact them? I want my GRoY (not MTV).

Carl Fink in X-RQ-ID: 2941

> ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de (ngl28) () writes:

() is Joerg Baumgartner abusing his work account. Lousy system, though, 
can't even remember my name.

>R>There seem to be three major and a few minor variants of the Man Rune
>>(human races): The Wareran, Agimori and Eastern types each spawned a number
>>of Hsunchen races, the minor ones (Veldang, Vadeli [who are listed as
>>Warerans in Genertela Player Book if I remember correctly]) apparently did
>>not.

>   WARNING: THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS KNOWN ONLY TO GOD-LEARNERS
>   AND THE BRITHINI

>  The Vadeli and Veldang are the same race -- note that the "missing"
>caste of the Vadeli are blueskinned.  Greg's unpublished "Lunar Book"
>mentions the conquest of Peloria by blueskins in the God Time.

NICE theory, although conflicting with what Sandy says. Also: How does this 
explain the Reds and Browns?

The Pelorian blueskins might be the Loper people, mentioned in Troll Gods' 
Annilla write-up. The last of these were officially destroyed in the 
Battle of the Lopers by the Seshnegi around 500+.

These might still live north of Blue Moon Plateau, hidden by friendly 
trolls. Dragon Pass has there the Duchy of the Blue Moon and Heretics 
Count(r?)y. Anyone with information on these, step forth!


MOB in X-RQ-ID: 2943

>LIVE ACTION TROLLBALL AT RQ CON, OR HOW I WENT TO VALIND'S GLACIER AND LIVED

Loved the description and the rules. Will there be one at Convulsions?


Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 2948

>>Zzabur
>>is on record as saying that all non-Brithini humans are descended from
>>animals

>  What is the source on this?  I submitted this to TotRM and was told that
>this was not the case, according to Greg.  Then they published it anyway
>in Notes from Nochet...

That's the answer. I regard Notes of Nochet as official Gloranthan rumours, 
which my team of scholars and God Learner heretics may mercilessly exploit. 
Note that neither me nor my scholars apply a truth rating to what we 
ramble...

>  Also, the original (Earth) source, me, quoted a source that said that
>MOST humans were animal descended.  The Tribes of Law and Chaos were 'real'
>humans and included the ancestors of the Brithini and the Vadeli (Law) as
>well as Ogres (Chaos), among others.

Well, I quoted several sources which prove divine ancestry, in some cases 
exclusively (e.g. the Ygglinga, or Malkion's five children).

>  Theyalans are descended from cattle and sheep Hsunchen in this scheme...

Yet the Telmori call the Dragon Pass Orlanthi (or some hsunchen??) the Cat 
people. (Dorastor...)

>  On 'Celtic'  Orlanthi:
>  I tend to think of them as a bit more like the Heroic Hellenes than Celts.
>They have their own cities (Boldhome, etc.) and certain other features as
>well.  I will go into this another time.

If you look at the great oppida of say Gergovia and Manching, you'll find 
that these Celts were a good deal hellenized themselves. The way I regard 
the heroic Hellenes is maybe more like the Balazaring citadel dwellers.

(Now we've got it, I start comparing real earth cultures to Gloranthan ones...)

Joerg Baumgartner
ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de

---------------------

From: guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org
Subject: GODS OF GRAZE
Message-ID: <9401311805.A3679wk@chrysalis.org>
Date: 31 Jan 94 17:05:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2955


Pardon me if this has been addressed here before, but I was wondering why the
gods of the Grazelanders (and presumably the solar-worshipping Pentans) are not
thye standard solar deities such as Yelm, Dendara, etc.
   Are they in fact the same gods, with some differing names and attributes?
Are they associated deities? Something else entirely?
 
On a completely separate note, why do Ducks have an affinity with the Death
rune?
 
--Guy Hoyle
aka Mulborth

---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Lunar and Solar thoughts.
Message-ID: <9402010325.AA14440@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 1 Feb 94 03:25:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2956


  Paul Reilly here.

  Sandy P. has lots of good stuff today.  I will reply to some of his posts,
in no particular order:

  Giants:
  We distinguish several types of giant in our campaigns, often confused
by humans.  Some are descended from the Tribe of Chaos, and were once 
(presumably) human-sized but bent the laws of nature to become larger - 
because they WANTED to be large.  They are more closer related to Ogres
than to other giants.

  THere is Gonn Orta's race, and a race that may be identical up near the
Glacier - the Northern Giants, who live on a very slow life cycle.  One of
them appeared in a storyline of ours; she was thought to be a 'bad', possibly
Chaotic creature, until the villagers figured out that she was the Giant
equivalent of a two-year-old, thus explaining her 'Chaotic' behavior.

  There are some descendants of Mammoth Hsunchen who have lost the Way in
the Grey Mountains - their noses are a bit of a tipoff.  (Elephant Hsunchen,
on the other hand, are pygmies.)

  Other things like Grotarons and Jolanti often get called 'Giants', much
as Wyrms get called 'Dragons'.

-------------------------------

>The Seven Mothers are most common in the Lunar Periphery, and are  
>rare or even unknown deep within the empire. They are a  
>specially-designed Border Cult

  This is in Cults of Prax.  However, we play that the individual Seven Mothers
have important cults in the Empire - it is the fusion that is the artificial
border cult.  Danfive Xaron, for example, must be present where criminals are
bred - notably the big cities of the Heartland.  Etc.

>Yara Aranis as an internal Lunar cult

  I tend to think of her as most important on the Eastern border, actually,
for obvious reasons.

>Lunar military cults

  Good stuff here.  We also use regimental spirit cults, plus some Lunar hero
cults (from later on.)  WHat about Hwarin Dalthippa?  We make her the main
military cult for Sylila and its Marble Phalanx, plus of course goddess of her
Roads, etc.
-------------------

  Replying to Nick Brooke (on Lunar Gods)
DANFIVE XARON:  HIs titles include Night Watchman or something like that,
possibly Savage Guardian as well.  He recruits  criminals into his cult,
putting them through a savage five-year conditioning program.  He has
some way of insuring their loyalty - RQ:AiG gives him Oath and Slave Collars;
we always thought of him having something much more horrible, more to do with
the LUnar Mind powers than the Humakti-like Oath.  Yanafil Tarnils should
already have Oath, why duplicate?

  ANyway, all this leads me to the conclusion that the DX cult is the backbone
of Imperial Intelligence.  Lunar Balance (and Paradox) dictate that the
worst evil-doers who tried to tear down Imperial society become its most
ardent protectors.  These guys believe that the end justifies the means, and
that the Lunar Way is the last best hope to keep Glorantha from dissolving back
into the Void or becoming a fossilized and lifeless husk - thus ANYTHING AT ALL
is justified to protect the Empire and the Way.  (But some may believe the
Way outweighs the Empire).

  I agree with Nick that Law/Stasis is more appropriate than Truth. Besides,
Yanafil Tarnils and Irripi Ontor are already Truth-associated - three of the
Seven having the same Power Rune is distinctly unBalanced.

  Maybe Law, Disorder, and Moon.

Disorder: cult of criminals, after all.  And pain - pain is Disorder.
Law:  Imposed to control the members, also the members impose Law on others.
Moon:  Source of the mind powers used to reprogram the Initiates.

  Some of the best agents were brought in kicking and screaming.
-----
  I see Nick agrees that the individual Mothers' cults are found in the
Heartland.  Good.

Yanafil Tarnils:  Was Humakt's best student.  I am profoundly influenced by
the example of Rild and Yama in Zelazny's "Creatures of Light and Darkness"
in getting a handle on this relationship.

-------------
Old Carmania:  I am sure that there is a lot of the 'barbarian warlord' strain
left in modern Carmanians - it's just hidden under a clever Lunar veneer
of politeness.  Still nasty down deep.  But even deeper down, you find the
'nice' Carmanians of the Light Side.  However, still deeper down, they're
even nastier than you thought...

----
  Well, it is getting late so I will have to sign off for now,

  Paul Reilly`




---------------------

From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Technicolour Yawns and Splashing Boots...
Message-ID: <01H8DO3AEIR690N1R2@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 2 Feb 94 04:31:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2957

John medway Writes:
>>  MOB in X-RQ-ID: 2913
>>>>  Subject: Back in the land Down Under (where women glow and men
chunder...)

>>Another "divided by a common language" bit: "chunder"?

This is from the mildly successful song  "Land Down Under", by 
Aussie band "Men at Work".  It also mentions "Vegemite sandwiches", which
is where many Americans first heard of the stuff.  "Chunder" is another
word for vomit, blow chaff, Technicolour Yawn, etc.  For an exhaustive array
of alternative terms for vomit (and urination) check out the 1970 classic
Australian movie "The Adventures of Barry McKenzie" - you'll also see
an early appearance of Dame Edna Everage.


>>>>  Well Su and I are safely returned from our 6 week US odyssey, and reeling
>>>>  with shock at the antipodean heatwave we are now experiencing.  Using 
>>>>  the Fahrenheit scale, yesterday it was exactly *one hundred degrees* 
>>>>  warmer here than it was in New Jersey just over two weeks ago, when we
>>>>  were...

>>This is a good thing, yes?

If I was at the beach, yes.  Because I am back at work (in an unairconditioned
classroom with 30 sweaty bodies, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


>>>>  fellow!"  (As he *failed* to light the flame, why bother upsetting 
>>>>  Gordius's Grand Design which was progressing so nicely at that 
>>>>  stage?)

>>Which was?

Ah ha, you'll just have to wait and see at Gordius's show trial!

>>Ah, you *were* apprehended in Casino Town! Err, I mean rescued.

>>Good that you made it out. Hmm, maybe we should coordinate our stories. 
>>Keep us all in decent condition ( un-crucified, not in a Danfive Xaron 
>>Penal regiment, ... ).

I won't be killin
g off or otherwise disposing of anyone in my speech (except
Constable Pugh, who got out with Gordius - always wanted to see Kralorela
I believe, shame he's not around to testify...).  I might smear some
reputations though!

MOB

---------------------

From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: RQ Con Down Under??????????????
Message-ID: <01H8DOIA234C90N1R2@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 2 Feb 94 04:43:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2958

G'day all,
An Australian RuneQuest Convention - RQ Con Down Under - is tentatively
being mooted for mid-1995!  More news to follow!

Now that I've got the RQ stuff out of the way, here's just a quick snippet
of information regarding my school, which, as you may recall, was targetted
for closure by the looney-right renascent Thatcherite buncaneers who we
elected last year.  (They did close over 250 schools, more than 1 in 8, but
as I said in the posting "I Fought, We Won" late last year, we went to the top
and convinced the Minister of Education to rescind the recommendation for
closure).  

Well, the Education Directorate heavy who pointed the gun at us has lost her
designated "high flyer" posting and has been busted back to a school-based
job!  I don't have much sympathy, as she played a number of dirty tricks
to try to get us closed, and we warned her early on that even though we
would play fair, we weren't taking prisoners. (However, what one
ministerial heavy reaps the other sows: her boss, who loaded the bullets,
has been promoted out of the area and someone out of state has been put in
his place).

But hey, this ain't aus.education.flame.facist.flame, so no more
education news till next time!

Now that my school's on safer footing, it's back to more serious RQing!

MOB