From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 15 Feb 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Hsunchen, Solar and Lunar Gods. Message-ID: <9402131949.AA06855@barren.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 13 Feb 94 19:49:15 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3094 Sandy: > The Vadeli are considered racially Wereran, as are the Brithini. The > skin color does not reclassify them any more than the near-black skin > of the Dravidian Hindus makes them a non-Caucasian group. This could get positively South African. ;-) Coming up with a systematic classification of the Gloranthan human subraces seems somewhat problematic, given the number of wholely contradictory origin myths, not to say the whole of pre-Dawn `history' being a shakey proposition at best. Are these races each of a common `real' origin, or are they classified according to their appearance only? > [[Sandy] said that the only native Genertelan earth culture was the Praxian] > Waha is manifestly an Earth God Only in the same sense Pamalt is. Or was that the point? This doesn't seem very clear-cut to me, after all, Earth isn't a major runic association of either. Even Orlanth is `The Keeper of Earth', does that make _him_ an earth god? Not necessarily a rhetorical question. > Certainly the Path of > Immanent Mastery folk wish they were still Dragon Hsunchen. Do they? They already have a pretty good deal magically compared to Hykim-style worship, and it's not obvious to me that Pathists would be philosophically sympathetic to Hsunchen world-views. We know the Path is a G*d L**rn*r construct, but what bits do we all reckon they used? H&M-style beast-worship; Dragon Magic, pinched from the newts; ancestor worship and/or the magic of the Dragon Emperors? > Precisely Yelmalio's triumph [...] It may seem "bleak" to a simplistic > storm-worshipper, used to seeing things in a rather Hollywood style, > in which the Good Guys always win, but to the more brooding and > introverted Solar cultists, it's thought as tremendously meaningful. I can spot a flip remark as quickly as the next person (well, depending on who the next person is, really), but I'm inclined to take this one (semi-)seriously, at least for five minutes. If Storm worshippers have a Hollywoodised view of Liff, I think we have to drastically rethink these Nordic/Celtic comparisons we've been blithely chucking about. Not to mention the Lightbrigher's Quest. I reckon Yelmalio (and this myth in particular) is pretty atypical of Psolar Psychology. (But I'm losing track, especially as there are now three of him.) Or at least, of the stereotyped Uptight Stifflipped Dara Happan Fuddy-Duddy. Let's face it, the DH characterisation of the Death of Yelm amounts to "Orlanth cheated!" Anyone out there have their own potted theories as to the character and/or psychology of their favourite Glorantha group? > I've always thought of Yara Aranis as an internal Lunar cult But I bet she's a big hit with the (Lunar fundamentalist?) Redland settlers, at least. Maybe we should distinguish between gloragraphical and political notions of things being internal or external: the Empire certainly has enough Enemies Within to be going on with. > Evidently I've driven Alex Ferguson to madness by not giving him what > info he needs on the Lunar military cults. You couldn't do that, as Rolf Harris would say, you're much too late. Actually, most of my followups have been fairly unrelated to what I `need', I'm just wandering off the point like everyone else.In case someone out there still cares, what I need (sic) at this point is mainly any info anyone has on Raibanth (so I can either use said info in my story, or discard it as a setting), and some dirt on the White Moon fan club. If anyone has any data or wild surmise about Pole Star or Dayzatar, though, that would be somewhat handy too. > POLE STAR: this is an officer's cult. In my view, this cult has only > rune lords, no priests or initiates. It does, however, have lay > members, and a Pole-star worshiping officer would normally require at > least his non-coms to worship this cult. I like it. And yet, I'm going to gripe anyway. First, can we clarify what we mean by `Lay Member' in the above? These days, we seem to get cults with no lay members, cults with lay members with no real ties to the god or cult, as with Aldrya and Argan Argar, and ones which are really `Mini-initiates', a la City Gods/Yelm the Youth, the key distinction being POW sacrifice. It would appear to be suspect cult ecology in the RQ3 scheme of things to have only LMs (who haven't sacked POW) and RLs with reusable Rune Magic. I think. Perhaps junior officers or NCOs (I wonder how formal military ranks are in any Gloranthan army? Likely as much so in Dara Happa as anywhere else.) could be a fuller kind of initiate, and `general staff' could fill the priestly role. At a stretch, maybe it could be made to fit the `standard' Solar five-stage thing. (Though Yelm would appear to be the only published cult which does...) > I'm sure his cult teaches some sort of Tactics skill. Battle? > GOLDEN BOW: This cult has initiates and rune lords (who do not get a > 1d10 Divine Intervention). I think I mailed the list about this a while ago, or at least I meant to. What is the thinking behind which cults give `Rune Lord DI', and which don't? There are some real oddities in _GoG_ in this respect, and in the use of classification/title `Rune Lord' in the first place. > Pureshot Is there a published (or even just posted) writeup for this spell? > In Peloria, his worshipers are organized into regiments [...] A regiment is an _awful_ big unit to be missile-specialists. Anyone know of any this size historically? Mind you, if anyone's stupid enough to do this, the DHns are. > YANAFAL TARNILS: The gifts/geases are like Humakt's, > but do not include a "distrust other species" geas Humakt3 doesn't `do' these either. The kinder, gentler 3rd edition? ;-/ > and he has associate cults giving him additional spells. Obviously 7M and the Red Goddess: are there likely to be any more, given the `parent' cult's conspicuous absence of any? Me again: > >The point I was pondering was: is it nececcary (or > >indeed even _possible_) to have a `reincarnation step' between being > >a Yelm guy, and being a D. guy? > I'm not sure what you mean by this. The initiation into the Dayzatar > cult includes a symbolic "death" to your former cult. I meant a _real_ death. The Death Rune, poleaxed by a berserk ZZ ukdo, fatal, fumbled DI, no resurrection kind. The `symbolic death' explanation smacks of Solar sophistry to prop up their rebirth myths. And hence is obviously correct. > Most retirees from Solar cults don't join Dayzatar. It's a very rare cult. By why is it rare, if it's so `easy' to join? Granted it appears to be a remarkably masochistic and pointless thing to do, but if it's a surefire passport to Solar Heaven, why aren't the punters joining up in droves? Or is it not this guarantee for the Lesser Lights? > Yes, other solar cults are elevated enough to supply Dayzatar > with members. Yelm is acceptable, Yelmalio too (as published in > several works -- including those elderly Yelmalio monks who stare at > the sun till they go blind and live in towers -- obviously Dayzatar > worshipers) I can only think of Sun County, myself, and it set off my Bogusometer then, too. My understanding (for which I blame on a brief conversion with one N. Brooke at Convulsion) was that the Yelmalion practise was _modelled_ on the Dayzatar one, but wasn't actually _it_. How did they come up with this trick in Prax say, isolated from all other Solar types? Note that Sun County disagrees with the `dead to your previous cult' idea: Solinthor is a member of -- oops, just looked him up, he's actually in _Yelm the Elder_, not Dayzatar. I'm getting increasingly confused about the Yio/Y/D relationship, especially in a (Gregged) historical sense, and I'm not the only one, I bet. Anyone have a Big Fix explanation? > Ourania is acceptable. Other acceptable cults are: Everyone and his wife, then. Hurm. Is it at least _harder_ for the lowlier cults to supply retirees? Or do they just become Less Important Dayzatar dudes? > >And the _only_ route to D. membership is this, retirement from a > >Solar cult? > Except for divine revelation or finding the Holy Child or something, > yeah. I'm sure there's all sorts of obscure exceptions. Hokay. If it is at least _possible_ to be born into the cult in some way, we can write off the numbers of old Lokarnos farts in it as a purely social phenemenon. Come to that, we can write off everything as a purely social phenemenon, Gloranthan religion doubly so, but ynowotimean. Nick Brookes the following: > Alex Ferguson: [ <-- Das me. ] > Danfive Xaron seems to be the most obvious Lunar God of Justice > ("or what passes for Justice in their stinking Empire"). Tsk. I warned you about the jokes. ;-) My alibi if you get beaten up at Convulsion is crumbling even as we speak. > He is the god of the secret > police, etc. Show trials are probably arranged by the Etyries cult, with > their gift for propaganda. I'm kinda tending towards the view that Justice is _basically_ secular in the Empire, given these various (highly plausible) suggestions from Nick, Sandy et al. about the various judicial functions of different cults, in the sense of being the preserve of no one single cult. Or at least about as secular as things get in a theocracy. I still vaguely hanker after a conspicuous Symbol to hang on a Lunar courthouse with which to annoy my story's fuddy-duddy Yelmic protagonist, though. Perhaps the Goddess herself, or some aspect of Her personifying Balance? (The name `Libiris' sprung to mind for said Aspect, but is fairly corny, and going around inventing cults is a habit I'm trying to give up). > I'd assign Danfive Xaron's cult the Law / Stasis rune I'm not convinced about the alleged equivalence here: Is it a Greg yet? ;-) Not that it isn't confused enough, especially the Acos -> Mostal -> Lhankor Mhy progression, to say nothing (or at any rate, not very much) about the Invisible God. Isn't Statis an association of Deezola, or do I misguess entirely? > He gives these concepts > a prison-house gloom inside the Empire, associating them with punishment and > restriction, which is all good stuff for Lunar philosophers. Is any Other Mother (what a phrase) given the association of Law or Chaos? Full Moon : Chaos :: Dying Moon : Law is weird, but plausible. > Also, in Blessed Torang his Lunar phase, the Dying Moon, > comes on Godsday, which I'd associate with the Law rune By contrast to Wildday : Chaos, I presume. Is there any other evidence for this? The Gods having Godday as a Holy Day aren't an spectacularly Lawful lot (7M, for one), and if Law = Stasis, what's Magasta doing in there? > which is after all the rune of the Great Compromise The compromise is hardly Pure Law. Surely it, and Time, are precisely a _fusion_ of law and chaos? > (cf. RQ Dailies last summer and "Codex #1" for my thoughts > on variable Lunar phases). Oh. I missed this before writing my message on the subject. > > Yanafal Tarnils: what _is_ the structure of this cult? > Use Humakt. Rune Lords are called "Scimitars". Okay. Makes sense. Someone Greg everyone using all the other titles (cf _RoC_) accordingly. Or are they local colour, references to the (distinct?) 7M subcult, or, well, what? > Seven Mothers is *like* an associate > cult of all the individual Mothers' cults. Yeesh. I just had a nasty vision of meeting a Scimitar of YT/Acolyte of 7M in well-Moonlit alley. > Its structure etc. are different to theirs. But there are various references to _subcults_ of 7M, generally stated or implied to be cults of each Mother. Life could get very confusing if their is a subcult of the Seven Mothers `specialising' in YT stuff, distinct from, and organised differently from, the `real' YT cult. Yes, I know, life already is... Should these references be regarded as referring to the appropriate _associated_ cult? And if so, does joining one require re-initiation? And what about transferring at later stages? Going by the letter of the rules, becoming a Priest of the YT 7M aspect would disqualify one from becoming a Scimitar of YT proper, and vice versa. Almost as big a cock-up as the dreaded RQ3 Light Captain situation. ;-) Fergus Windbag, coming to a RQ con near (some of) you. --------------------- From: mabeyke@batman.b11.ingr.com (boris) Subject: Cultural Initiation Message-ID: <199402131712.AA12131@batman.b11.ingr.com> Date: 13 Feb 94 17:12:06 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3093 A while back there was some discussion about what it meant to be to be an Orlanthi initiate; not so much an initiate of the cult of Orlanth, but to be a member of the Theyalan culture who has just gone through initiation. There were several ideas batted around, but nothing that seemed satisfying to me. After some of thought, I have come up with the following, some (perhaps most) of which was mentioned in that previous discussion. It can stand a lot of going over, so if anyone has ideas that seem germane, please comment. (Note: In the following I will use the term "Theyalan" when referring to the culture or the pantheon, and Orlanthi when referring to just the cult(s) of Orlanth, to save confusion.) When a Theyalan youth or maiden comes of age and is initiated, at first they become what is referred to in the RQAG draft as "Low Initiates". What this is is not defined in the draft; I assumed (and the authors probably intended) it to mean low ranking initiates in the cult, more a matter of "time in grade" (so to speak), than any real degree of initiation. Well, I intend to define a Low Initiate now as follows: a Low Initiate is someone who has been initiated into the basic mysteries of a pantheon. What cults the pantheon consists of varies from clan to clan; in KoS p239, it says "Children become adults after a formal initiation ceremony, parts of which are the most closely held secrets of the clan." In some of the Lismelder clans, for instance, the pantheon may include Humakt as an associate of Orlanth and the Ernaldan household. This is not an initiation into any of the cults of the pantheon, just to the pantheon itself. This allows one to take part in cult worship to any of the deities as an initiate. This may or may not allow one to sacrifice for divine spells; at most only those spells which are offered to associate cults would be accessable. One would not have to be bound by the harsher strictures of the individual cults; the Lismelder clansman mentioned above could be resurrected, for instance. Any rules held to by all of the cults would be binding, however. Later, when the Theyalan initiate has seen some of the basic mysteries of each cult, and has had a chance to decide, they may advance to become a Full Initiate. This is when they become a full member of a particular cult. However, they would not necessarily loose the benefits that they had before; an Orlanthi initiate may (and might be expected to) take part in Ernalda services. However since they are not Full Initiates of Ernalda they will never see anything but the basic mysteries of that cult. Some cults, particularly Humakt, may require a severing of the Low Initiate status; this also may vary from clan to clan. Note that when one becomes a Full Initiate one does not sacrifice any more POW; that was done at the basic initiation. One goes to the priest of the desired cult who performs the Initiation ceremony (a new spell added in RQAG, gladly enough). Anyway, I think this is the core of a workable system to reflect the "real world" process of initiation. A youth of 15 may have no idea that he will become a great Storm Bull berserker; why would he be forced to decide yet? But he is still able to participate in the community through worship. In some clans, most of the people may never go past the Low Initiate level; they may view those who dedicate themselves to a single cult as "dangerous fanatics", especially any cult other than Orlanth and Ernalda (and perhaps the household cults such as Barntar, Mahome, etc.). Such is best left for the thanes and lords; common farmers need all the gods' favor, not just one, even if that one is Orlanth. ---- Boris --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Lunar Phases/Glowline Message-ID: <199402132214.AA27591@radiomail.net> Date: 13 Feb 94 22:14:51 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3095 >From: jpolk@opus.starlab.csc.com (James Polk) >I like the idea of the "crimson corona" within the Glowline. >However, I have trouble with the phases of the moon being >different in different regions within the Glowline. If that were >so, it would make communication within the Lunar Empire very >difficult. Think of the difficulties we Americans can have with >time zones. (Was that 9 am Eastern Standard Time, Eastern >Daylight Savings Time, or Central Time?) Now think about letters >written across the Empire. (Were we supposed to meet next week on >your Full Moon or mine?) Why would people put up with this >confusion? I suggest that one of the effects of the Glowline is >to make timing of the lunar phases within the Glowline the same. >That way the Moon is the "same (which was misinterpreted to mean >"always Full") within the Glowline. Outside the Glowline, of >course, the phases would differ according to where one was. This >way a balance would be achieved between the constant phases >within the Glowline and the changing phases without. 1) There's a lack of instant communications -- great empires have problems because of distance, not time zones. 2) The Lunars still use Theyalan day names, probably to avoid such problems. (No doubt common people, who don't deal with distances farther than they can walk, frequently use phase names.) 3) Your suggestion is weird enough it may be right. I think it'd be very odd to step through the Glowline and not only see the corona disappear, but see a different phase. Sandy answers: >>Where did Ethilrist's simple farmers come from? >They are his original Black Horse Troop mercenaries, now retired. >Presumably they also include his BHT's children and maybe >grandchildren nowadays. So do you know _when_ Ethilrist arrived? Sounds like the late 1500s, if some now have grandchildren. --------------------- From: QFF00036@niftyserve.or.jp (QFF00036@niftyse) Subject: Personality Traits, Nirvana, RQ4 Mailing Message-ID: <199402141727.CAA07450@inetnif.niftyserve.or.jp> Date: 14 Feb 94 17:22:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3096 Kuri is here. Sandy's Personality Traits is very good. > Humans that use dragon magic start out with full colorful >human personalities, and gradually degenerate by use of dragon magic, >ultimately lessening their humanity. I think those who lose ALL humanity get nirvana. Krolari Monks seek the True Way to nirvara. Dragon Magic is one of the ways. But nirvana is far, farthest for some. Many monks lose their "humanity balance" and go in mad, or even chaotic. Those who withstand the "humanity crisis" and continue to seek her way can achieve nirvana. May be Godunya is the one who got the True Way to Dragon. ************* How can I join RQ4 Mailing List? Please someone tell me. Regards. // Kuri (QFF00036@niftyserve.or.jp) //