From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 23 Feb 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: s.manning@ic.ac.uk Subject: Malkioni - again Message-ID: <9402221818.AA10931@milli> Date: 22 Feb 94 18:18:37 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3159 Well, I guess I've appeared a pretty rabid monotheist, have'nt I. In that case, I apologise and I'll quiten down a bit, especially because of Sandy's comments in X-RQ-TD: 3147. However, I can't resist adding my own comments to some of Sandy's: >I suspect that more than any other Gloranthan religion Malkionism has >suffered from revisionist history (I mean by Gloranthans, not by >Greg). OK. I guess I tend to credit history with too much objectivity and empiricism. >First we just have sorcerers, as evidenced in some real old >works (the Vadeli may be survivors of this day). My personal opinion is that pre-Zzabur the westerners used what is best described as a proto-sorcery. Given this, I have imagined that when, as part of Malkion's revelation, Zzabur invents the sorcery known today, the people of the KoL etc. would have gone "wow", this chap really knows his stuff. If sorcery pre-dated Zzabur, then could the use of it by the Vadeli have been an ingredient in the Old Malkioni (Brithini)-Vadeli schism? >Then Malkion comes and sets up the Brithini. YES, YES, YES! This is great and confirms that the Brithini, i.e. the Old Malkioni, were not pre-Malkion and that the Old Malkioni were of only one sect, at least those of Malkion's Kingdom, later Seshnela, Brithos and Akem. If they worshipped Malkion, great, but I still think that the ESSENTIAL feature of Malkionism is recognition/worship of the IG. >Then Hrestol comes and provides a new >interpretation of everything Malkion said. Yep! I would go a little further. At Gamesday '86 (?) (Halcyon days), you said that alll Malkioni, bar the Brithini etc., have Malkion as a patron saint. To me, (WARNING: VAGUE IDEA AHEAD) this suggests that the Malkioni would say that he stands between created beings and the Creator. Solace then follows as the result of the (realisation of the) link of the worshipper to the IG, via Malkion. (Aside (just thought of this): this is a little reminiscent of illumination - a "mystical" peace through a teacher/Gbaji/Nysalor. We know that the riddlers had difficulties in the West, could it have been Solace vs. Illumination?) Hrestol's revelation is then to learn how to approach Malkion and from him continue to the godhead, which for most post-Hrestol Malkioni would be at death. However, this personal relationship could be experience prior to death through DI and divination, which Sandy said was possible for Malkioni, too. The Joy of the Heart would then be something they would believe in, as opposed to experience, as with Solace. Personally, I see Old Malkionism as being a "war-time" society, established under emergency conditions so that the people and the arts of their civilisation could survive. In this way, people had to specialise so that nothing would be lost. I can't help but see it as akin to the biblical ark, only instead of a physical ship in which Noah etc. where confined in order to survive, we have a confining social order, the purpose of which was to preserve the people and their culture. (I had the ark idea whilst watching a documentary on the supposed site of the Ark in Turkey) I think this puts a nice spin on Dawn age Malkionism. >Then, a few hundred years later, (~ 1000) >the Rokari claim that the Hrestoli are misinterpreting Hrestol >(and vice-versa). I imagine every tiny sect of Malkionism has a >completely different interpretation of what Malkion said and what >Hrestol said. OK, but isn't there a Malkioni Bible? A wizard's bible is mentioned in Dragon Pass. If there is, I like to think of it as addressing only moral issues and leaving most of natural philosophy out of it, except an account of the Creation. (Aside: I like to think of the people of the KoL huddled around fires, facing the end and still discussing questions of natural and moral philosophy! This adds a nice twist to Malkion's revelation, as when he tells his people of the Creator and creation, they would not only be in awe of him for his status as a prophet, but they would be moved by his knowledge of cosmology! So there would have been along with "hail the prophet" as many, "blimey, that's how He did it, I'd have never though, always had my money on the theory of ..."; well, kind of). >Solace only knows what the Malkioni believed in the Great >Darkness. Certainly the Malkioni themselves can have no idea. What about the above, plus histories like the "Book of Parables", mentioned in Genertela, Bk. I ? Wouldn't they cast some light on the Great Darkness (no pun intended)? > I suspect that the modern gulf between deism and Malkionism >may not have been so great during the First and Second Age. The God >Learner Empire certainly had both wizards and priests working in >happy cooperation. Perhaps the God Learners' destruction is one of >the reason that the wizards are so hostile to the so-called "False >Gods" today. Also the Serpent Kings' clear ties to the Earth gods >indicates a possibility (to me), that the rulers of the Seshnegi were >god-worshipers, though their subjects may not have been. Post Hrestol, I think that fitting other gods into the Malkioni scheme of things is fine. As I said yesterday, Malkion had dealings with the gods (e.g. Britha?) and viewing gods as saints, aspects of the IG etc. is OK. I just don't think that you can really be a Malkioni and not have the IG up there, at the top, number one big fella etc. I like the idea of the 3rd age state of affairs being due to the Malkioni thinking they got their fingers burnt in the past. I think this could be used to argue that the Return to Rightness party were used by the GL. It also shows that if you think that the GL imposed a particular theology of the IG on the Malkioni, then it is just as likely that by 1600, the Malkioni would have done that hardest to shake off any aspects of GL views they could find. This is certainly true of the Rokari, and I would like to think it is true of the Loskalm Hrestoli too, but I can't help but dwell on Meriatan's words. Maybe this is the more healthy Malkioni view of the gods, but I am not sure, especially as he says how the IG combines all the gods in Himself, so he must too. Maybe this is close to the pre-Arkat, post-Hrestol, polytheism? Monks etc.. Thanks for your views. I was influenced by the references to the GL monks and the wizard abbey in Tanisor (can't remember where exactly, sorry). >>Some Saints (first of all Malkion himself) are pre-Dawn. >I agree with this statement. However, they may not have received >proper saintly-worship until after the Dawn. Yep, exactly. BTW, do you know of any other saints, apart from: Malkion, Hrestol, Xemela, Arkat, Gerlant, Talor, Paslac and Valkaro? Waertag is mentioned, but is this a mistake, as well as a St. Madron in Sesnela? Yours feeling a little buoyed up by Sandy's comments and hopefully not such a monotheistic bigot today, Simon Manning. --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 21 Feb 1994, part 2 Message-ID:Date: 22 Feb 94 18:39:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3160 Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 3138 > You _have_ to get a GRoY. Since this is a currently in-print product, I >am reluctant to redistribute info from it; besides, retyping is tedious. >Maybe Joerg can get a copy and permission to recopy and redistribute with a >fee paid to Chaosium (or not), this seems more sensible than mailing endless >copies across the Atlantic. Greg? Joerg? Are you two reading this? Joerg here: I am. I might, although a distributor in Great Britain would do for the rest of us Europeans. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: T.S.Baguley@open.ac.uk (T.S.Baguley Thom Baguley) Subject: Yelm vs. Orlanth Message-ID: <9402221857.AA00745@Sun.COM> Date: 22 Feb 94 18:57:10 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3161 Commenting on Sandy on Yelm and Orlanth > Yelm treats Lodril like a potentially erring child, or like a >big fuzzy dog that's not too smart and sometimes needs correction. In >other words, the Yelm rulers treat Lodril and Dendara followers >paternalistically. While that's hardly an ideal in the modern >Democratic world, there's plenty worse practices in Glorantha and >darn few that are better. I think this is one of the problems. We compare Glorantha to our contemporary Western values and see more similarities in Orlanthi societies than our own (though I suspect that an Orlanthi visiting our society might judge it closer to Yelmic cultures ..). I think that Yelmic culture relies heavily on insitutions, traditions and precedence for its values. A good leader in this culture is one who works within the established framework to aid his people (and the cult of Yelm may make it difficult for that framework to be ignored or changed). A good leader in Orlanthi culture is one who brings his or her personal qualities (intelligence, courage, loyalty, honesty, generosity etc.) to the fore in his dealings with his (and other) people. If the Orlanthi leader isn't up to the job (not very bright, not very honest etc.) his people will be in trouble. However, Yelmic culture protects against this e.g. in the establishing of precedent, the delegation of authority and so on (this is a protective factor because it is very difficult to change the way things are done in Yelmic society). On the other hand, if your leader is good, innovative, exciting and so on Orlanthi culture will provide more opportunity for creativity, better adaptation to changing circumstances and so on. Yelmic society restricts an innovative leaders' ability to improve the way things are done or to cope with change. Of course these are generalizations. Orlanthi do have laws and precedents, just not to the same extent. As Sandy says, both Orlanthi and Yelmic cultures offer happier places to live than many other Gloranthan cultures. [I'm tempted to suggested that Lunar culture is like Yelmic culture without the restrictions against change and without a strict moral code ... an analogy springs to mind with the last 14 years of government in the UK, but I'd better stop before I start to rant.] Thom --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: Gloranthan Post Office Message-ID: Date: 22 Feb 94 19:01:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3162 Greg Fried here. Paul Reilly asks: "Is there a god of philately?" Well, I can't help playing the pedant here! Being an avid stamp collector in my youth, I can tell you that 'philately' is the love of stamp collecting. 'Numismatics' (from the Greek 'nomisma' -- something sanctioned by law as the conventional 'coin' of trade) is the name for the collecting of coins and medals (not military medals, but rather the commemorative and honorific medals produced largely in the Renaissance). Now, the question of whether there IS a postal service in operation anywhere in Glorantha is an interesting (if incredibly geekly!) one. Of course, there have been messenger services carrying documents around since antiquity. The question is, is there a culture anywhere in Glorantha which would support an official, (semi-?) public communications-delivery service? In other words: Has Issaries ever served as Postmaster General? And does a god have to be dead for ten years to appear on a postage stamp? (Although, technically, there were RL postal systems in operation LONG before the invention of adhesive postage stamps in 1840, so the Lunar "Penny Red" may not yet exist.) I would presume that such a service would require a civilization with a fairly large degree of literacy. Furthermore, it would probably only arise in a culture in which commerce is important enough to require frequent communication of commercial documents. I bet the God Learners had a postal service! Maybe also some of the city states in contemporary (!) Genertela, and perhaps some of the more advanced Western cultures. Maybe the Lunars, given their neurotic love of documents. As for a "god of numismatics" -- just ask Urgggghhhh (or whatever) the Ugly, and his Gold Wheel Dancer! Or, Issaries as the god of trade and communication, might be the god of 'conventional' coinage. I think that an imaginative form of the Issaries cult spirit of retribution (Raw Greed) would 'numismatic mania' -- the compulsion to get your hands on every variety of coinage possible for you 'collection', to amass as many 'duplicates' of each coin as possible for possible future 'swaps', and, of course, to never spend a single, precious clack! (Just remember how you all felt about spending those cool minted lunars in the Home of the Bold LARP at RQCon!) Yours in nerdliness, -- GF (PS: Turned in the last section of my dissertation last week! Now I may have some more time for RQ. [Ha!]) --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) Subject: This and that Message-ID: <9402222100.AA18261@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 22 Feb 94 21:00:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3163 Kralorelan Names ALthough I don't speak any Chinese languages I have occasional access to people who do. Questions to them indicate that Kralorelan is pretty much Chinese. Hence it seems one can easily come up with Kralorelan names for people or things by finding someone to translate for you. Hence: Li Tsao - "Daughter of Light" - a prophetess Lao Ren - "Old Man", founder of a school of alchemical magic and philosophy etc. Lewis writes: > ... Sandy's radical Dragon Magic ... > Further I believe that these other magic systems exist and are totally >different from spirit, divine and sorcery: >Mostali mechanics >Kralori mysticism >Vormain chromancy > There are undoubtably other systems (in Pamaltela?) and also thousands Good points, although I don't know if I'd go with _totally_ different: I think there should be some underlying natural laws, otherwise you might as well be in the Void of Chaos. Other systems that we know about already include: Jelmre emotion magic, Kimos rock magic, Chaos powers (very different), Doraddi sand paintings. I'm sure we can think of more. > It is possible that there is a meta-magic system in Glorantha I might think it even better to say "Glorantha has a set of natural laws." These are quite different from our own but they must be there in order to distinguish Glorantha as a world unique in itself, not part of the Void. > For those who want to tie down all the >possibility in Glorantha look at what happened to the GLs The God Learners get a lot of bad press, it's true. I'd like to hear their side of the story - many of the good things in modern Glorantha are a result of their work. I'm sure that some of them were quite reasonable folks. --------- Scotty writes: >This is what I use. It's also a good way to explain why you never >(okay, extremely rarely) see folks who use both spirit magic and >sorcery: they require a totally different mindset. One's own I agree, different mindsets and even different perceptions. Also, as I run them, the systems are innately hostile in many ways, except perhaps to illuminates of the Lunar way, who are able to embrace apparently contradictory truths without going insane. (Well, ok, with going insane, but in a controlled way.) ------------- Joerg B. asks: > I'd appreciate suggestions on how frequent sorcery is among the > Hendriki, since my campaign in Heortland is going to lift off soon. Sandy replies: >Richard the Tiger-Hearted and his minions were mostly Rokari, if >that's any help. In my campaign there are Richard and his twenty-four Knights, who are supported by their men-at-arms and a small number of good professional Wizards. All of these use sorcery, the Wizards doing most of it. In addition there are Aeolian Wizards, henotheists who follow various saints like St.Orlanth, etc. Practice much air magic. They are fairly rare but a noble might have one or two working for him. Common people use spirit magic, not sorcery. A few others. Sandy writes: >I suspect that more than any other Gloranthan religion Malkionism has >suffered from revisionist history (I mean by Gloranthans, not by ..... >Solace only knows what the Malkioni believed in the Great >Darkness. Certainly the Malkioni themselves can have no idea. It seems strange that the people with extensive written records and long-lived individuals have the least idea of what was going on a long time ago. Did all the Brithini who lived before the Dawn get their memories erased at some point? What does, say, Malcolme Phillipe remember? >with relatives like Vadrus/Ragnaglar, Gagarth and other psychopomps, Is Gagarth a pschychopomp for the Praxians? Issaries is the Orlanthi psychopomp, I believe, and not related to Orlanth. Or should that be 'psychopath'? I endorse (although he doesn't need it!) Sandy's comparison of Yelm and Orlanth. Orlanthi tend to have a double standard between themselves and outsiders, and between their relatives and strangers; Yelm is far more Just. Well, have to go to a Faculty Dinner. More Tomorrow... - Paul