From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 03 Mar 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK Subject: Stages of Initiationb and other bits and bobs. Message-ID: <9403021038.AA20840@Sun.COM> Date: 2 Mar 94 09:36:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3222 Hi All My views on the stages of initiation are that there is a significant advantage to the culture that harnesses the power (MPs) of its children for its religious ceremonies. Thus it is to the benefit of the clan if all the children who are at a ceremony also participate fully. This not only helps renew the priests spells but also helps to bind the children fully into the religious culture of the clan. There is of course the problem that children cannot be initiated too early or they will not be able to cooperate and participate in the ceremony. This I regard as vital since membership of a religion must be a voluntary act, although the cultural pressure to sign up would be over whelming to a child. Thus, among the Orlanthi I would think that the first initiation would be at age seven and the child would join the entire pantheon. This would have a number of benefits: 1) The childs MPs now help the community, which in turn helps the child. 2) As they get older children of richer parents or priests might receive some simple instruction in magic including 1 or 2 childrens spells. 3) The child is magically bound to the clan and while I would hesitate to allow children to have conscious DI it would allow their God(s) to keep an eye on them, especially if asked by the priest of the clan. Thus if a child was lost or kidnapped they could be located via their bonds with the gods, whereas if they were not initiated they would be invisible the their god, except during holy ceremonies IMHO. So I would see the normal progress for an Orlanthi child to be *low initiation* (can't we find a better name, come on you catholics) at age seven. Then later they have the choice of either initiation into a specific religion (requiring another point of POW) or merely cultural initiation (ie. staying the same religiously, but being promoted to an adult which would allow them access to a wider range of magics and also conscious DI). Thus specific initiation would now cost 2 POW, however since the child has been attending worship ceremonies since the age of seven they should have regained the POW and be even at age 14. Thus PCs start out with their rolled POW at age 14 and progress normally using previous experience (if applicable), this assumes that they have also joined a specific deity, in addition to their cultural one. Thus Orlanthi children will all be members of the entire pantheon and of course spend quite a bit of time singing "All things bright and beautiful, All creatures great and small, All things wise and wonderful, Ernalda made them all!" Going on to talk about Voria making the spring flowers and Orlanth ruling, thundering and protecting, Barntar plowing and feeding at harvest time etc. On reaching adulthood many Orlanthi would also join a specific deity depending on their social station, but would also retain their links with the rest of the pantheon. Humakt is the obvious exception to this as joining Humakt severs ties with the other gods. Thus Orlanthi can DI for ressurrection via CA but Humakti CAN NOT even if they wanted to. Other cultures might well approach this from a different perspective (which is well and good IMO) but generally I think that specific initiation should not replace initiation into a pantheon, but should complement it and give it a sense of direction. For an example, why should the future chief be cut off from Ernalda's bounty (Fertility for himself and his crops) just because he chooses (rightly) to specialize in Orlanth Rex. The Humakti, is on the other hand making a conscious decision to cut himself off from life (fertility) when he joins the ranks of his gods somber warriors. DRAGON NEWT SKIN The tattoos should stay with a dragonnewt until they progress. Remember that if you skin a dragon newt when they are reborn they will be without the skin you took! How this works is beyond me, just another example of dragon newt wierdness, but it explains why they will track any skin takers to the ends of Glorantha. ALDRYAMI WRITE UP Mike I loved it. YELORNA AND UNICORNS I do not believe that they form a tribe in the normal Praxian sense. However, they seem to be a practical grouping of two minor forces who have found that they have a greater survival chance when teamed up. I believe that without this grouping both would have virtually died out in Prax, due to lack of intertest as well as physical competition. Lewis --------------------- From: SMITHH@mr.mgh.harvard.edu (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: Jord/Yolp Message-ID: <01H9HMN04LNAPMRFQV@mr.mgh.harvard.edu> Date: 2 Mar 94 02:45:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3223 In my continuing efforts to catch up on the Daily, I came across some material posted about the Yolp and Jord mountains a week or so ago. At first, my inclination was to say "no, the dwarfs have always been in the Jord mountains" and was going to refer to the old Mostal article in Different Worlds. After looking at that article, though, the only reference to the Jord mountains was that the dwarfs occupied a Krarsht complex and did not indicate when that occurred. It seems quite possible that if chaos was there, trolls were there fighting it (particularly since the Jord mountains lay along the southward path taken by Gore and Gash. Perhaps the trolls left around the time of the Red Goddess' birth (or even before leaving only a few people behind) having eaten up everything they could. Or as was mentioned the dwarfs wanted the access to the minerals there. One of the ongoing plans of the Imtherian dwarfs that I have developed is to continue raising the mountain range running from the Hungry Plateau down through Imther, all the way to Dragon Pass (as well as northward towards the Blue Moon Plateau). This is to be the first leg of the rebuilt Spike. So to continue their plans, the dwarfs chased out the trolls and set up there own cities and mines, driving out the Krarshtkids as well. As for Jakaleel, I tend to think of her as Subere instead of Zorak Zoran, too, especially in her role as Keeper of Secrets (not one of Zorak's strong points). Harald Smith (SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU) --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: RQers meet at the Temple of the Winds Message-ID: <01H9IKYP4W8I8WYM8P@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 3 Mar 94 11:25:59 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3224 G'day to all Melbourne, Victoria, Australia RuneQuesters out there. As a sign of the reviving fortunes of RQ, the once seasonal meetings of Glorantha fans is again taking place, at the Temple of the Winds in the Royal Botanic Gardens. This Sunday, about 1pm. Hope to see you there! MOB --------------------- From: Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz Subject: Names, names, names Message-ID: <199403011916.AA01376@rata.vuw.ac.nz> Date: 2 Mar 94 20:19:24 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3225 Henk - thanks for forwarding the elf stuff. Could you do the same for this? --------------------- Here's something that's been bugging me for years. Why do the Agimori (African analogue inhabitants of Pamaltela) and the Agimori (men-and-a-half, Praxian hunters) have the same name? Surely they can't be the same thing -- men-and-a-half are children of Lodril with fire-resistance and other special powers, whereas Pamaltelans are I believe just normal Gloranthans with darker skin. Aren't they? Will this be in the next issue of Tales, or can a resident Rune Guru enlighten me? And another nomenclatural problem. Who are the Hsunchen that live in Pralorela? The Genertela book says they're deer people (damali), but the name of the place (and the listing of Hsunchen tribes in the player's book) would suggest they are elk people (pralori). Not that it's critical, I'd just like to know. And a contribution to the etymology thread. Delecti of Upland Marsh must be from the Latin delict/um -i (n., offence or wrong). And pertaining to the Indus/Harappan observation that started this all off, who else has noticed that the ogre in MOB's Melisande's Hand scenario in Sun County is called Mohenjo Daro? On the subject, I have to admire Greg et al for coming up with so many cool names amidst the more dodgy ones. (Has everyone heard how Nochet got named?) That's one of my hardest GM jobs, trivial as it sounds -- making up non-dorky names for ship captains, wandering barbarians, and villages. How do other GMs do it? Mike Dickison adzebill@matai.vuw.ac.nz --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Yu-Kargzant; Earthshakers Message-ID: <199403022048.AA07514@radiomail.net> Date: 2 Mar 94 20:48:49 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3226 >From: SMITHH@mr.mgh.harvard.edu (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) >In regards to the Kargzant discussion, there is a comment near >the end of GRoY which indicates that (in the Dara Happan view), >Kargzant is now the steed of Lightfore and would thus be part of >the planet seen at night. This view is reinforced where it >states that day and night were reversed after the nomads were >driven out of Peloria. > >Would the Grazers have this same view, or would they think that >Kargzant is still the orb in the sky? How about the Pentans? Do >they still revere Kargzant or did they substitute Yelm worship >when Kargzant was defeated? My view of Grazer mythology: For a long boring time Yelm hangs in one place. Oralant kills Yelm. But Yelm was too cool to die like Grandfather Mortal, and instead splits into pieces. This leaves Kargzant to rush around helping everyone. Kargzant marries Ungariant (daughter of Arandayla) and has 4 sons. Finally Kargzant decides he can't be everywhere at once, and prepares to make the supreme sacrifice for his followers. He appoints his 4 sons to be in charge of the appropriate age groups, and goes dashing off to Hell. He rescues the principal bits of Yelm. Oralant and his followers show up to beg forgiveness. Yelm grants this, then Kargzant carries him out the Gates of Dawn and forever more across the sky. Kargzant, now known as Yu-Kargzant, has given up much of his Mobility. But the sun now moves, which is an improvement. And Yu-Kargzant can help all his followers at the same time. One of my Grazer players summarizes this as "Kargzant hauls Yelm's sorry ass across the sky." Don't believe all that Dara Happan propaganda. After all, it was written down, and thus can't change with reality. >From: malcolm109@aol.com >Just what are the Earthshakers? A unit of them exists in >the Dragon Pass game. The illustration shows a hulking man-shaped creature. Worshippers of Maran Gor. The counter itself probably consists of many of the priestesses and acolytes from the Shaker's Temple. I imagine it portrays an earth elemental. --------------------- From: SMITHH@mr.mgh.harvard.edu (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: RQ Con Message-ID: <01H9GQMF0JYEPMQSF6@mr.mgh.harvard.edu> Date: 1 Mar 94 11:35:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3227 Might as well go for two messages in one day while I'm starting up. I forgot to mention in my earlier post that I really enjoyed the RQ Con and thought that the organizers (particularly David Cheng) did a great job pulling it together. The storytelling and RQ discussions were certainly highlights for myself. As an outside observer I also enjoyed HOTB, even to the point of acting as part of the rioting mob burning Moontown. I also wanted to let Michael O'Brien know that the Live Action Trollball was quite fun. Although I did not plan to go out onto Valind's Glacier, I did. As the Xiola Umbar healer for the victors, I know they couldn't have won without me ;-). Maybe with some luck I'll get to RQ Con 2. --Harald Smith SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Earth Shaking News Message-ID: <940302213956_100270.337_BHB92-2@CompuServe.COM> Date: 2 Mar 94 21:39:56 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3228 Malcolm X asked: > Sandy... I direct this question towards you as the the expert on > Gloranthan creatures and races. Just what are the Earthshakers? > A unit of them exists in the Dragon Pass game. The illustration > shows a hulking man-shaped creature. Spot the One True Worlder! Out of injured pride, I shall answer this question as best I can. The Earth Shakers of Old Tarsh are priestesses and devotees of the Shaker's Temple, known to God Learners as Maran Gor (the Barren Earth Goddess). Her full cult write-up is in Tales of the Reaching Moon #6; a short form only can be found in Gods of Glorantha. The best way to understand her place in the Six Earths is: if Ernalda is the "Mother Goddess", Maran Gor is the "Mother-in-Law Goddess". She is a fat, stroppy, argumentative woman who stomps around and breaks things. An archetypal figure, of course. From the "Dragon Pass" rulebook: : The Earth-Shaker's cult worshipped a native Tarsh deity who was the : daughter of the Broad Earth and an incarnation of the Great Mother in : her destructive aspect. It was a crude but fulfilling religion, and : well-suited to the harsh ways of the Exiles. The High Priestess was : so ponderous she had to be pulled around in an oak cart drawn by six : oxen. She was attended by forty-seven male and female cannibal virgins. Many people would connect her cult to the Old Tarshite sacrificial kingship rituals (ploughing the old king into the soil to fertilise the earth, etc). I don't see why they shouldn't. She isn't a very nice deity, though. The Prosopaedia (from memory) says statues show her as an angry woman with clenched fists, stamping on the ground to shake it. That would explain the posture on the Dragon Pass counter. The French painted counters for "Dragon Pass" show an inhuman creature, but I believe they've missed the point. She's a fat, ugly lady, not a member of some unique, inhuman race. A cultic archetype, not a monster. > The only other reference to these creatures that I have found in > my admitedly incomplete reference library comes from KoS p 103 > describing Dragon Pass after the Dragonkill War. "In those days > the world was like before humans were made. The old people, and > the nature beings, throve without the cutting plow or the racket > of bells to drive them off. The Earthshakers multiplied, sometimes > tended by dragonewts." "Earthshakers" here is another name for dinosaurs; completely different. Another mention is in the Glorious Reascent of Yelm: defined as "Gazzam. Beasts, literally 'Shakes-ground,' vulgarly called dinosaurs". Maran Gor is said in the Animal Genealogies (in RuneQuest Companion p.9 / Jonstown Compendium entry 1476) to be their mother: : Maran Gor eventually spawned many of the great earth-shaking reptiles -- : the dinosaurs. There is no other known connection between the cult of the Earth Shaker and these Earthshakers, though the thought of vengeful Old Tarshites armed with "Command Dinosaur" runespells should keep a few Lunars awake at night. ==== Nick ==== "I'm not saying my mother-in-law is fat, but when she walks down the street she's always followed by forty-seven cannibal virgins..." --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: re: RQ Daily Message-ID: <9403022345.AA05249@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 2 Mar 94 11:45:51 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3229 Joerg says: >Chastity was proposed for the higher ranks. From a breeder's >point of view, this is counter-productive. If the Rokari wizard >caste wants to keep a high magical standard, apprenticeship should >be a prerequisitive for marriage and reproduction. This way, they >would select the strongest magicians' genes. The celibate Rokari wizards can have hordes of apprentices and teach them a "high magical standard" without breeding them personally. I can't believe the Rokari know anything about genetics. They're as likely to believe that once a lineage has produced a magician its "magic power" is used up for a few generations as that magic arts are carried from father to son. >The first Crusade ended by grabbing the land. Only a trivial amount of land was grabbed -- all of it obviously sacred territory -- and the vast bulk of the crusaders returned home having gained no land whatsoever from the expedition. Alex Ferguson asks: >Is it `legitimate' for a 'newt commit suicide (not using this >skill), specifically for the purpose of getting reborn as the >subsequent stage? Or would that act endanger its chances in itself? I think it's okay for a dragonewt to kill itself under almost any circumstances whatsoever. I don't think any compunctions apply at all, which is doubtless one of the reasons dragonewts are creepy to other species, because the dragonewts have few qualms about killing other species as well. Life just isn't sacred to them. MOB challenged my statement that the Crusades weren't a land-grabbing venture. He also said I was a starry-eyed idealist. Give me a break. I'm sticking to my guns. The minute amount of land conquered does not make the Crusades an imperialist act. I won't attempt to deny that many of the nobles went home with wealth. Most crusaders didn't even get to the Holy Land (though most didn't die, but simply turned back). I won't defend the Fourth Crusade at all, which is not even worthy of the name. But I don't think it was so much a land-grabbing attempt, as a ploy by Venice to destroy a mercantile rival. And now I won't talk any more about the crusades, because the sources are available to everyone, and it's pointless to talk about it here on the internet, where it has largely become a "tis-tain't" argument. (Much like my defenses of Yelm re: Joerg.) ANDERS says: > It is my impression that monasteries were more important in >Anglo-Saxon England than in contemporary France or Germany [Spain >being occupied by Islam]. I was thinking of Visigothic Spain. >Btw, how many _Gloranthan_ years does it take till aging sets in? The same as Earthly years. But, you say, a Gloranthan year isn't as long. That's right. Gloranthans therefore don't live as long as Earthlings. It is widely agreed in Glorantha that before the Sunstop the year had a different length, and it is also generally agreed that post-Sunstop people don't live as long. Put it down to one of the ill-effects of Gbaji. Everyone knows Gbaji existed. The debate is over who he was. Malcolm asks: >Just what are the Earthshakers? The High Priestess and staff of the Tarsh exile Shaker (i.e., Maran Gor) temple. The High Priestess is so immense that she is normally moved around in a wagon pulled by around 50 male and female cannibal virgins. The Maran Gor cult animal is a dinosaur. The "non-human" portrait on the Dragon Pass counter is doubtless supposed to be an icon of the priestess herself, who has been altered physically as well as psychically by her grim worship. The KoS statement "The Earthshakers multiplied, sometimes tended by dragonewts." is almost certainly a reference to Dinosaurs. ---------------------