Bell Digest v940303p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 03 Mar 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


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From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Stages of Initiationb and other bits and bobs.
Message-ID: <9403021038.AA20840@Sun.COM>
Date: 2 Mar 94 09:36:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3222


Hi All 

	My views on the stages of initiation are that there is a significant 
advantage to the culture that harnesses the power (MPs) of its children for 
its religious ceremonies.  Thus it is to the benefit of the clan if all the 
children who are at a ceremony also participate fully.  This not only helps 
renew the priests spells but also helps to bind the children fully into the 
religious culture of the clan.  

	There is of course the problem that children cannot be initiated too 
early or they will not be able to cooperate and participate in the ceremony.  
This I regard as vital since membership of a religion must be a voluntary 
act, although the cultural pressure to sign up would be over whelming to a 
child.  

	Thus, among the Orlanthi I would think that the first initiation 
would be at age seven and the child would join the entire pantheon.  This 
would have a number of benefits:

1) The childs MPs now help the community, which in turn helps the child. 
2) As they get older children of richer parents or priests might receive 
   some simple instruction in magic including 1 or 2 childrens spells.  
3) The child is magically bound to the clan and while I would hesitate to 
   allow children to have conscious DI it would allow their God(s) to 
   keep an eye on them, especially if asked by the priest of the clan.  

	Thus if a child was lost or kidnapped they could be located via 
their bonds with the gods, whereas if they were not initiated they would 
be invisible the their god, except during holy ceremonies IMHO.  

	So I would see the normal progress for an Orlanthi child to be 
*low initiation* (can't we find a better name, come on you catholics) at 
age seven.  Then later they have the choice of either initiation into 
a specific religion (requiring another point of POW) or merely cultural 
initiation (ie. staying the same religiously, but being promoted to an 
adult which would allow them access to a wider range of magics and also 
conscious DI).  

	Thus specific initiation would now cost 2 POW, however since the 
child has been attending worship ceremonies since the age of seven they 
should have regained the POW and be even at age 14.  Thus PCs start out 
with their rolled POW at age 14 and progress normally using previous 
experience (if applicable), this assumes that they have also joined a 
specific deity, in addition to their cultural one.  

	Thus Orlanthi children will all be members of the entire pantheon 
and of course spend quite a bit of time singing "All things bright and 
beautiful,  All creatures great and small,  All things wise and wonderful, Ernalda made them all!"  Going on to talk about Voria making the spring flowers 
and Orlanth ruling, thundering and protecting, Barntar plowing and feeding
at harvest time etc.  

	On reaching adulthood many Orlanthi would also join a specific 
deity depending on their social station, but would also retain their links 
with the rest of the pantheon.  Humakt is the obvious exception to this as 
joining Humakt severs ties with the other gods.  Thus Orlanthi can DI for 
ressurrection via CA but Humakti CAN NOT even if they wanted to.  

	Other cultures might well approach this from a different perspective 
(which is well and good IMO) but generally I think that specific initiation 
should not replace initiation into a pantheon, but should complement it and 
give it a sense of direction.  For an example, why should the future chief 
be cut off from Ernalda's bounty (Fertility for himself and his crops) just 
because he chooses (rightly) to specialize in Orlanth Rex.  The Humakti, is 
on the other hand making a conscious decision to cut himself off from life 
(fertility) when he joins the ranks of his gods somber warriors.  


DRAGON NEWT SKIN

	The tattoos should stay with a dragonnewt until they progress.  
Remember that if you skin a dragon newt when they are reborn they will 
be without the skin you took!  How this works is beyond me, just another 
example of dragon newt wierdness, but it explains why they will track any 
skin takers to the ends of Glorantha.  

ALDRYAMI WRITE UP 

	Mike I loved it.  

YELORNA AND UNICORNS

	I do not believe that they form a tribe in the normal Praxian sense.  
However, they seem to be a practical grouping of two minor forces who have 
found that they have a greater survival chance when teamed up.  I believe 
that without this grouping both would have virtually died out in Prax, due 
to lack of intertest as well as physical competition.  

	Lewis

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From: SMITHH@mr.mgh.harvard.edu (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: Jord/Yolp
Message-ID: <01H9HMN04LNAPMRFQV@mr.mgh.harvard.edu>
Date: 2 Mar 94 02:45:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3223

          In my continuing efforts to catch up on the Daily, I came across 
          some material posted about the Yolp and Jord mountains a week or 
          so ago.  At first, my inclination was to say "no, the dwarfs have 
          always been in the Jord mountains" and was going to refer to the 
          old Mostal article in Different Worlds.  After looking at that 
          article, though, the only reference to the Jord mountains was 
          that the dwarfs occupied a Krarsht complex and did not indicate 
          when that occurred.
          
          It seems quite possible that if chaos was there, trolls were 
          there fighting it (particularly since the Jord mountains lay 
          along the southward path taken by Gore and Gash.  Perhaps the 
          trolls left around the time of the Red Goddess' birth (or even 
          before leaving only a few people behind) having eaten up 
          everything they could.  Or as was mentioned the dwarfs wanted the 
          access to the minerals there.
          
          One of the ongoing plans of the Imtherian dwarfs that I have 
          developed is to continue raising the mountain range running from 
          the Hungry Plateau down through Imther, all the way to Dragon 
          Pass (as well as northward towards the Blue Moon Plateau).  This 
          is to be the first leg of the rebuilt Spike.  So to continue 
          their plans, the dwarfs chased out the trolls and set up there 
          own cities and mines, driving out the Krarshtkids as well.
          
          As for Jakaleel, I tend to think of her as Subere instead of 
          Zorak Zoran, too, especially in her role as Keeper of Secrets 
          (not one of Zorak's strong points).
          
          Harald Smith (SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU)



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From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: RQers meet at the Temple of the Winds
Message-ID: <01H9IKYP4W8I8WYM8P@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 3 Mar 94 11:25:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3224

G'day to all Melbourne, Victoria, Australia RuneQuesters out there.
As a sign of the reviving fortunes of RQ, the once seasonal meetings
of Glorantha fans is again taking place, at the Temple of the Winds
in the Royal Botanic Gardens.  This Sunday, about 1pm.  Hope to see
you there!
MOB

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From: Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz
Subject: Names, names, names
Message-ID: <199403011916.AA01376@rata.vuw.ac.nz>
Date: 2 Mar 94 20:19:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3225

Henk - thanks for forwarding the elf stuff. Could you do the same for this?

---------------------

Here's something that's been bugging me for years. Why do the Agimori
(African analogue inhabitants of Pamaltela) and the Agimori (men-and-a-half,
Praxian hunters) have the same name? Surely they can't be the same thing --
men-and-a-half are children of Lodril with fire-resistance and other special
powers, whereas Pamaltelans are I believe just normal Gloranthans with
darker skin. Aren't they? Will this be in the next issue of Tales, or can a
resident Rune Guru enlighten me?

And another nomenclatural problem. Who are the Hsunchen that live in
Pralorela? The Genertela book says they're deer people (damali), but the
name of the place (and the listing of Hsunchen tribes in the player's book)
would suggest they are elk people (pralori). Not that it's critical, I'd
just like to know.

And a contribution to the etymology thread. Delecti of Upland Marsh must be
from the Latin delict/um -i (n., offence or wrong). And pertaining to the
Indus/Harappan observation that started this all off, who else has
noticed that the ogre in MOB's Melisande's Hand scenario in Sun County 
is called Mohenjo Daro?

On the subject, I have to admire Greg et al for coming up with so many cool
names amidst the more dodgy ones. (Has everyone heard how Nochet got 
named?) That's one of my hardest GM jobs, trivial as it sounds -- making 
up non-dorky names for ship captains, wandering barbarians, and villages. 
How do other GMs do it?

Mike Dickison
adzebill@matai.vuw.ac.nz




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From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Yu-Kargzant; Earthshakers
Message-ID: <199403022048.AA07514@radiomail.net>
Date: 2 Mar 94 20:48:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3226

>From: SMITHH@mr.mgh.harvard.edu (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
>In regards to the Kargzant discussion, there is a comment near 
>the end of GRoY which indicates that (in the Dara Happan view), 
>Kargzant is now the steed of Lightfore and would thus be part of 
>the planet seen at night.  This view is reinforced where it 
>states that day and night were reversed after the nomads were 
>driven out of Peloria.
>          
>Would the Grazers have this same view, or would they think that 
>Kargzant is still the orb in the sky?  How about the Pentans?  Do 
>they still revere Kargzant or did they substitute Yelm worship 
>when Kargzant was defeated?

My view of Grazer mythology: For a long boring time Yelm hangs in one
place. Oralant kills Yelm. But Yelm was too cool to die like Grandfather
Mortal, and instead splits into pieces. This leaves Kargzant to rush around
helping everyone. Kargzant marries Ungariant (daughter of Arandayla) and
has 4 sons. Finally Kargzant decides he can't be everywhere at once, and
prepares to make the supreme sacrifice for his followers. He appoints his 4
sons to be in charge of the appropriate age groups, and goes dashing off to
Hell. He rescues the principal bits of Yelm. Oralant and his followers show
up to beg forgiveness. Yelm grants this, then Kargzant carries him out the
Gates of Dawn and forever more across the sky.

Kargzant, now known as Yu-Kargzant, has given up much of his Mobility. But
the sun now moves, which is an improvement. And Yu-Kargzant can help all
his followers at the same time.

One of my Grazer players summarizes this as "Kargzant hauls Yelm's sorry
ass across the sky."

Don't believe all that Dara Happan propaganda. After all, it was written
down, and thus can't change with reality.

>From: malcolm109@aol.com
>Just what are the Earthshakers? A unit of them exists in
>the Dragon Pass game. The illustration shows a hulking man-shaped creature.

Worshippers of Maran Gor. The counter itself probably consists of many of
the priestesses and acolytes from the Shaker's Temple. I imagine it
portrays an earth elemental.


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From: SMITHH@mr.mgh.harvard.edu (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: RQ Con
Message-ID: <01H9GQMF0JYEPMQSF6@mr.mgh.harvard.edu>
Date: 1 Mar 94 11:35:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3227

          Might as well go for two messages in one day while I'm starting 
          up.  I forgot to mention in my earlier post that I really enjoyed 
          the RQ Con and thought that the organizers (particularly David 
          Cheng) did a great job pulling it together.  The storytelling and 
          RQ discussions were certainly highlights for myself.  As an 
          outside observer I also enjoyed HOTB, even to the point of 
          acting as part of the rioting mob burning Moontown.
          
          I also wanted to let Michael O'Brien know that the Live Action 
          Trollball was quite fun.  Although I did not plan to go out onto 
          Valind's Glacier, I did.  As the Xiola Umbar healer for the 
          victors, I know they couldn't have won without me ;-).
          
          Maybe with some luck I'll get to RQ Con 2.
          
          --Harald Smith
            SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU



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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Earth Shaking News
Message-ID: <940302213956_100270.337_BHB92-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 2 Mar 94 21:39:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3228

Malcolm X asked:

> Sandy... I direct this question towards you as the the expert on
> Gloranthan creatures and races. Just what are the Earthshakers?
> A unit of them exists in the Dragon Pass game. The illustration
> shows a hulking man-shaped creature.

Spot the One True Worlder!

Out of injured pride, I shall answer this question as best I can.

The Earth Shakers of Old Tarsh are priestesses and devotees of the Shaker's 
Temple, known to God Learners as Maran Gor (the Barren Earth Goddess). Her 
full cult write-up is in Tales of the Reaching Moon #6; a short form only 
can be found in Gods of Glorantha. The best way to understand her place in 
the Six Earths is: if Ernalda is the "Mother Goddess", Maran Gor is the 
"Mother-in-Law Goddess". She is a fat, stroppy, argumentative woman who 
stomps around and breaks things. An archetypal figure, of course.

From the "Dragon Pass" rulebook:

: The Earth-Shaker's cult worshipped a native Tarsh deity who was the
: daughter of the Broad Earth and an incarnation of the Great Mother in
: her destructive aspect. It was a crude but fulfilling religion, and
: well-suited to the harsh ways of the Exiles. The High Priestess was
: so ponderous she had to be pulled around in an oak cart drawn by six
: oxen. She was attended by forty-seven male and female cannibal virgins.

Many people would connect her cult to the Old Tarshite sacrificial kingship 
rituals (ploughing the old king into the soil to fertilise the earth, etc). 
I don't see why they shouldn't. She isn't a very nice deity, though. The 
Prosopaedia (from memory) says statues show her as an angry woman with 
clenched fists, stamping on the ground to shake it. That would explain the 
posture on the Dragon Pass counter.

The French painted counters for "Dragon Pass" show an inhuman creature, but 
I believe they've missed the point. She's a fat, ugly lady, not a member of 
some unique, inhuman race. A cultic archetype, not a monster.


> The only other reference to these creatures that I have found in
> my admitedly incomplete reference library comes from KoS p 103
> describing Dragon Pass after the Dragonkill War. "In those days
> the world was like before humans were made. The old people, and
> the nature beings, throve without the cutting plow or the racket
> of bells to drive them off. The Earthshakers multiplied, sometimes
> tended by dragonewts."

"Earthshakers" here is another name for dinosaurs; completely different. 
Another mention is in the Glorious Reascent of Yelm: defined as "Gazzam. 
Beasts, literally 'Shakes-ground,' vulgarly called dinosaurs". Maran Gor is 
said in the Animal Genealogies (in RuneQuest Companion p.9 / Jonstown 
Compendium entry 1476) to be their mother:

: Maran Gor eventually spawned many of the great earth-shaking reptiles --
: the dinosaurs.

There is no other known connection between the cult of the Earth Shaker and 
these Earthshakers, though the thought of vengeful Old Tarshites armed with 
"Command Dinosaur" runespells should keep a few Lunars awake at night.

====
Nick
====

"I'm not saying my mother-in-law is fat, but when she walks down the street 
she's always followed by forty-seven cannibal virgins..."

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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: re: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <9403022345.AA05249@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 2 Mar 94 11:45:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3229

Joerg says: 

>Chastity was proposed for the higher ranks. From a breeder's 

>point of view, this is counter-productive. If the Rokari wizard  
>caste wants to keep a high magical standard, apprenticeship should  
>be a prerequisitive for marriage and reproduction. This way, they  
>would select the strongest magicians' genes.
The celibate Rokari wizards can have hordes of apprentices and teach  
them a "high magical standard" without breeding them personally. I  
can't believe the Rokari know anything about genetics. They're as  
likely to believe that once a lineage has produced a magician its  
"magic power" is used up for a few generations as that magic arts are  
carried from father to son. 


>The first Crusade ended by grabbing the land.
Only a trivial amount of land was grabbed -- all of it obviously  
sacred territory -- and the vast bulk of the crusaders returned home  
having gained no land whatsoever from the expedition. 


Alex Ferguson asks:
>Is it `legitimate' for a 'newt commit suicide (not using this  
>skill), specifically for the purpose of getting reborn as the  
>subsequent stage? Or would that act endanger its chances in itself?
I think it's okay for a dragonewt to kill itself under almost any  
circumstances whatsoever. I don't think any compunctions apply at  
all, which is doubtless one of the reasons dragonewts are creepy to  
other species, because the dragonewts have few qualms about killing  
other species as well. Life just isn't sacred to them. 


MOB challenged my statement that the Crusades weren't a land-grabbing  
venture. He also said I was a starry-eyed idealist. 

	Give me a break. I'm sticking to my guns. The minute amount  
of land conquered does not make the Crusades an imperialist act. I  
won't attempt to deny that  many of the nobles went home with wealth.  
Most crusaders didn't even get to the Holy Land (though most didn't  
die, but simply turned back). 

	I won't defend the Fourth Crusade at all, which is not even  
worthy of the name. But I don't think it was so much a land-grabbing  
attempt, as a ploy by Venice to destroy a mercantile rival. And now I  
won't talk any more about the crusades, because the sources are  
available to everyone, and it's pointless to talk about it here on  
the internet, where it has largely become a "tis-tain't" argument.  
(Much like my defenses of Yelm re: Joerg.)

ANDERS says:
> It is my impression that monasteries were more important in  
>Anglo-Saxon England than in contemporary France or Germany [Spain  
>being occupied by Islam]. 

I was thinking of Visigothic Spain. 


>Btw, how many _Gloranthan_ years does it take till aging sets in?  

The same as Earthly years. But, you say, a Gloranthan year isn't as  
long. That's right. Gloranthans therefore don't live as long as  
Earthlings. It is widely agreed in Glorantha that before the Sunstop  
the year had a different length, and it is also generally agreed that  
post-Sunstop people don't live as long. Put it down to one of the  
ill-effects of Gbaji. 

	Everyone knows Gbaji existed. The debate is over who he was.

Malcolm asks:
>Just what are the Earthshakers?
The High Priestess and staff of the Tarsh exile Shaker (i.e., Maran  
Gor) temple. The High Priestess is so immense that she is normally  
moved around in a wagon pulled by around 50 male and female cannibal  
virgins. The Maran Gor cult animal is a dinosaur. The "non-human"  
portrait on the Dragon Pass counter is doubtless supposed to be an  
icon of the priestess herself, who has been altered physically as  
well as psychically by her grim worship.

The KoS statement "The Earthshakers multiplied, sometimes tended by  
dragonewts." is almost certainly a reference to Dinosaurs. 





	

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