Bell Digest v940311p1

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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 11 Mar 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


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From: jclannom@mathlab.mtu.edu (Joe Lannom)
Subject: Re: Inititation
Message-ID: <9403101437.AA14560@mathlab.mtu.edu>
Date: 10 Mar 94 14:37:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3280

Joerg Baumgartner writes:

|> The way RuneQuest presents cults, each is a monotheistic religion which 

|> happens to acknowledge other deities besides it. That feels wrong to me.
|> 


It only feels wrong when thought of in an earthly theological sense... 


My views on initiation and Gloranthan religion are:  


1)  When you become an initiate of a cult, you tie your personal
    runes (which at a young age are the basic ones for your race,
    i.e. the man rune, man and darkness if you're a troll, or beast
    if you're unlucky enough to be a cheating Morocanth... )
    to those of your god.  I'm currently viewing the gods as
    personifications of elemental forces and groups of forces
    given personality through their runes' interaction with the 

    mundane plane.  I know, this smells like God Learner table
    scraps, and perhaps it is...

2)  In aligning yourself with a particular God (force) you learn 

    about the ways that that God (force) interacts with the rest of 

    the world, and how that God's powers (force) can be used to 

    combat/life that which thwarts that God (force)... as you learn 

    more about that God, their runes become entangled with yours, 

    tying your life force to their force... as you live as a Humakt, 

    Death (as directed entropy) becomes more and more a part of your life and 

    your actions are influenced by it.

I don't feel that worshipping one god, while recognizing several others has  
ANYTHING wrong with it when viewed in this light.  You can study physics all  
your life and spend years 'worshipping' what it stands for (creating a world  
view where physics is the central pillar of the universal machine) and helping  
further the legions of physicists all the while recognizing the fact that  
chemistry is a viable science... you just haven't learned much about that  
'force' or haven't aligned yourself to think about the world from a chemist's  
viewpoint.

The most devout of worshippers will have grasped the basic concepts of their  
God's aspect and strive to emulate them.. basic is best.  The most like a God,  
the further one will go in life...  


Initiation into a pantheon would be like not declaring a major.  You can get by  
with it for a while, but after a short span of time you start getting pressure  
to declare your major.

As for spirits of reprisal... ok, so I'm a little biased from spending so much  
time at a school, but that'd be like switching advisors half-way through your  
masters thesis (initiate level) and having to do a lot of leg work over  
again... or getting kicked out of a department because you broke a basic  
rule... or having to go to the admin to fill out the paper work to change it  
officially.

I view priests not only as clerics ministering to their flocks, but also as  
Philosophers, in a way.  Reflecting at length how their god helps to make the  
world the way it is, how to world WOULD be without god so-and-so who got in the  
way long ago... watch out for philosophers wearing red socks.  


Rune lords are 'research oriented'.  


Um, oh yeah, thats what I was on about.  I agree with Joerg about the different  
types of initiation in different places... credits just don't transfer that  
cleanly.

|> I don't know whether it would be possible to fade out of one cult (e.g. 

|> Danfive Xaron), become a "general" 7Mother initiate, and then move on to YT 

|> without resacrificing at one point, and at least talking to DX's spirit of 

|> reprisal.
|> 


As for jumping from cult to cult in Seven Mothers... only if you're  
illuminated.  Chaos theory would liberate you and allow you to synthesize the  
different mothers to create a more complete (+ly twisted) world view.

Well, I could go on... but I'm already getting a lot of disturbed stares from  
the GL haters... I relinquish the field to the home team.

---------------------

From: gadbois@cs.utexas.edu (David Gadbois)
Subject: Tales #11
Message-ID: <9403101610.AA17385@peaches.cs.utexas.edu>
Date: 10 Mar 94 04:10:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3281


I just received the master copy for Tales #11 and will take it to the
printers' today.  North American and South Pacific subscribers can
expect to get their copies in two to three weeks.

--David Gadbois

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From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Sorcery (again!)
Message-ID: <9403101703.AA28923@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 10 Mar 94 19:03:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3282

Nils Weinander writing.

I saw Greg Fried's posting on sorcery so I thought I might contribute
a summary of my end of that conversation. There are two premisses to
be explained first:

1. Contrary to the prevailing sentiment in the RQ4 mailing list I see
   the runes, or rather the forces represented by the runes as
   universal. This does not mean that all runes are known and used
   everywhere, and the typographics may vary.

2. What follows is the basis for the sorcery rules I plan to use in
   my yet-in-the-planning-stage East Isles campaign. As I am not going
   to use RQ rules I give no exact rule mechanics.

Orthodox readers with sensitive minds are thus warned :-)

Sorcery is based on manipulation of the forces, henceforth referred to
as runes. Thus there is a skill for each rune. A magic spell is made up
of a combination of runes. (Yes I am aware that this has been discussed
on the daily before).

Western sorcery, as used by the wizards is based on scientific research
and learning of formulas. In game terms a wizard casts all his magic
as predefined, separately learned spells. A wizard cannot use his rune
skills directly to do 'spontaneous' magic. To create a new magic effect
a wizard needs to succeed with a skill roll with all component runes,
and with a Sorcery skill roll. This research process takes a long time.
The base chance for a new spell learned is determined by the wizard's
skill with the component runes. It is possible to learn spells using
runes the wizard doesn't know, but the base chance is very low.

Eastern sorcery is based on insight and spritual training like meditation.
I will call the practitioners mystics to differentiate them from wizards.
A mystic never uses pre-learned spells. All his magic must be attuned
to the conditions of the casting moment. The mystic decides on a magic
effect and rolls for the component rune skills directly. In addition to
these a focusing skill is needed to catalyse the magic. To continue the
oriental earth influence, common focusing skills could be poetry,
calligraphy and origami. All in all the mystic has a greater range of
magic than the wizard since he can combine his runes arbitrarily as the
situation demands, but the wizard, needing only one skill roll for
each spell has a better chance to actually getting his spell started.

I really like Greg's idea that runes have hidden meanings in addition
to the obvious ones, but I haven't manage to create a mechanic for
this yet.

Another tricky part is which runes to use for what effects.

Finally I apologize to all who take offense at the exclusive use of
the male pronoun in this posting. It is used for convenience, not as
a display of misogyny.

/Nils W

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From: s.manning@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Miscelleneous
Message-ID: <9403101733.AA00498@mega>
Date: 10 Mar 94 17:33:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3283

Just a couple of unrelated comments.

Way back in X-RQ-ID: 3207, MOB said of Sandy Petersen
>I challenge Sandy, while cherishing his starry-eyed idealism:
Well, given that we have in Glorantha a world where magic works, that's pretty 
idealistic to begin with.  I guess I'm a bit of a "starry-eyed idealist" myself 
and I like to try to work that into my thoughts and ideas concerning Glorantha. 
Sure, people aren't perfect, and thank goodness for that, or we'd never get to 
enjoy the likes of Griselda, but Glorantha is a big place and there is room for 
everybody.  Mind you, I'm probably just naive.

I received ToTRN yesterday and, in the words of Dave "Stimpy" Hall, "happy, 
happy, happy.  Joy, joy, joy".  I just want to say that I really enjoyed MOB's 
editorial, especially the bit about Greg's ideas maturing.  Equally, the two 
letters on "One True Worldism" (OTW) struck a chord with me, particulary Paul 
Reilly's.  I've never even thought of submitting material to Chaosium, but I 
could still sympathise with Paul.  If Chaosium/Avalon Hill were releasing 
products at the rate of TSR, or even 1/10 th of that, then OTW would pretty much 
be limited to specifics of geography, small things like that.  I assume that 
that was the original motivation for designating Blank Lands.  With the current 
release rate the chance for OTW to be a serious problem is magnified greatly.
	Personally, apart from the map of the First Age in TrollPak (I only got 
this in RQ3 form) with a large chunk of Loskalm-to-be missing, I've never felt 
myself to be Gregged by new material, but, as I demonstrated a few weeks ago, I 
have been Gregged by old material!  From what Paul wrote concerning Greg's ideas 
on wizards and runes, then I suspect I will be Gregged whenever that appears.
	I don't know what the answer is though.
	Also from ToTRM, the questionnaire results.  I don't think I started 
back in '82 :(, though I may have known about RQ then, but I do remember, with 
great fondness, the glorious Game Days when Greg and Sandy were the guests of 
honour; these were '85 and '86, I think.  Just to give a taste, when Greg gave 
his seminar, there were so many people in the room that some had to be moved out 
as the fire-regulations were being breached; they all came back in again as soon 
as possible though!  Oh happy days!

Simon.

---------------------

From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink)
Subject: the Block and the Devil
Message-ID: <199403101738.AA10473@panix.com>
Date: 10 Mar 94 07:38:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3284

devinc@aol.com writes:

>Thought I'd throw out an off the wall question for some ideas.

>What would happen if the Block suddenly disappeared?

---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Elmal; Nomadic smiths
Message-ID: <199403102058.AA27710@radiomail.net>
Date: 10 Mar 94 20:58:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3285

Joerg said
>KoS doesn't give account at all to all the Yelmalio/Elmal worshippers in 
>Sartar. From the information I have seen it appears that almost a full 
>third of the popuation follows the Sun god of the hills, whoever that is, 
>and more so among the Volsaxi (see the Nightjumpers).

KoS.246: "The bulk of Orlanthi society considers their initiates to be
eccentric, strange, exotic, or dangerous. ... These deities include ...
Elmal."

KoS.255 lists Elmal _last_ as "the most common of these specialized deities."

The Night Jumpers "were able to fly easily at night." [KoS.174] This sounds
like an Orlanth power.

So I think you're wrong on all counts: there is information, Elmal worship
is rare, and the Night Jumpers have no special affinity for the Sun.

>(Smiths were 
>rarely allowed to travel, once they had settled somewhere, for fear they 
>might not return.)

That may be European, but in India, there are nomadic smiths, the Lohar.
They travel in groups of 3-15 carts, and mend tools or take orders for
sickles and plowshares (to be delivered when they return). They pray to
their anvils, and have vowed not to use a light to see in darkness.
[Source: _Nomads_of_the_World_] These guys are how I picture Third Eye Blue
(about which I know very little).

David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206 783 7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net
    "I say we should listen to the customers and give them what they want."
    "What they want is better products for free." --Scott Adams


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From: LOREN@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller)
Subject: Gloranthan slang
Message-ID: <53DC3461599@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 10 Mar 94 19:05:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3286

Has anybody come up with slang for players to use in a Gloranthan 
RuneQuest campaign? I think that such slang would help players to bond 
into a group, and might help make RuneQuest and Glorantha more attractive, 
especially to young roleplayers.

I've read something somewhere with Pavic slang. Have other GMs done 
anything along these lines?


--
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller              LOREN@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
Into the flood again,  same old trip  it was back when

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: traders, iron age
Message-ID: 
Date: 10 Mar 94 22:25:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3287

David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 3275

> When RQ3 came out and took away Issaries Rune Lords, I was sorely
> disappointed. Partly this is because my first RQ character was getting
> really close to becoming a Rune Lady of Issaries.

> But now that I'm reading about Vikings, stuff like "the sea-going merchants
> were armed and knew how to use their weapons" makes me sigh. The Trader
> Prince priest doesn't come close.

You can't take the Vikings as valid example - they could do anything 
they wanted, and which Gloranthan culture would allow that? :-)

I doubt the Viking traders were devoted to any god of trading. They were 
single-minded profiteers who didn't mind if they did not have to pay for 
the wares they acquired, and if any they worshipped spirits like Dormal, 
or major deities like Thor. A lot of them were Christians as well, which 
fits with the Issarian church of Malkionism (indicating a religious practice 
not orthodox with either pure Malkioni nor pure theism) rather than with the 
Orlanthi-style Issaries cult.

Noone keeps your warrior from joining this creed and making profit by 
trade.

> Is this simply because the Orlanthi aren't into trade to any serious
> degree? (I don't think so, because after all, Sartar gifted the Grazers
> with their first Issaries temple.)

Sartar is hardly typical Orlanthi. In fact, I strongly suspect him to be 
a wizard member of the Aeolian Church of Heortland, with a special 
tie to St. Larnste (who has quite a lot of local importance around the 
footprint) and a lesser tie to St. Chalana or St. Issaries Goodword.

> Certainly an Issaries Trader Prince could be a warrior (though they still
> have DEX limits in Gods of Glorantha), but their cult skills and spells
> don't encourage this.

What for? With Path Watch, Create Market and Lock he gets defensive magic 
only. These are spells designed to avoid fighting.

Issaries figured in no myth I have heard about as a fighter. In his herald 
and messenger function, not raising arms was essential.

No Issaries would ever have to offer to fight to prove his weights 
aren't crooked, such as the warrior turned trader in the "Voyages of the 
Red Orm" by Frans Bengtsson had to. Issaries priests are obliged to tell 
the truth in how they describe their wares in the bargain, otherwise 
their deity would react.

> So who is the brave explorer, searching out new trade routes? I suppose it
> still has to be Issaries, but he just doesn't seem that adventerous.

Take Kost the Desert Tracker for the brave explorer. Or take the (nowhere 
described) Lightbringer aspect, the path-finder, which might well be a 
"real" Runelord.

[quoting from RQ4-list]
> Which makes me wonder about my non-Gloranthan campaign. I'd been using
> bronze and iron because I liked the two levels of metal. Would steel be as
> much better than iron as iron is to bronze?

In my campaign I use the term "steel" for alloyed steel, which is quite as 
much a dwarf and secret smith guild secret as is iron in Glorantha. It has 
magic-disturbing abilities because of the magnetism, which hurts the 
approopriate Elder Races also on my world. (I have Orcs as cross-breeds 
between Light-associated Elves and Darkness-associated Trolls which 
tolerate magnetism, bred by a divine race  similar to Greek titans.)

Alloyed steel or damascened hard/soft carbon steel are superior to normal 
iron blades - they keep their sharpness, are way less brittle or prone to 
bending. I've seen people hacking at each other with swords made of simple 
iron, who had to stop every few minutes to recover from fatigue and 
straighten their blades.

> What weapons couldn't be made
> of terrestrial bronze (I disagree with Brandon since Peter Connolly's
> _The_Greek_Armies_ says, "Many bronze swords have been recovered. THey are
> rapier-like weapons with a strong mid-rib.")

16th century impaling swords relying on flexibility, which are NOT rapiers, 
and possibly katanas, also 16th century. Chainmail with sensible 
weight-protection ratio.

All the rest ought to be possible, maybe by applying other techniques - 
iron never is cast, bronze most of the time. As I understand it, Gloranthan 
bronze is usually hammered, not cast; cast copper alloys are called brass.

While bronze items are more easily nicked, they can be repaired more easily 
as well by simple hammering. Try this for iron without losing its temper.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de