From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 14 Mar 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: Agimori and mori Message-ID:Date: 12 Mar 94 08:52:28 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3298 Greg Fried here. I have been trying to send a letter to Nick Brooke, but for some reason (probably my incompetence), I can't get it through, so I will expose myself to you all.... --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: more Agimori Message-ID: Date: 12 Mar 94 09:00:01 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3299 Argh. OK. Here's what I wanted to post: Nick, Just wanted to let you know that I thought your post about a week ago on the Agimori was spot on. You did something which I found rather refreshing: you gave a critical socio-cultural reading of a Gloranthan construct from _outside_ of the Gloranthan 'perspective'. Now, it's not that I want the RQDaily suddenly to transform itself into a lit-crit journal whose subject matter is fantasy worlds. But I do think this particular topic was due for a little airing out. Given the gender and ethnic profile of most gamers, the depiction of fantasy 'races' can get a bit hairy sometimes, and I think we owe it to ourselves to check in on our overheated imaginations every now and then. BTW, do you think it is simply an accident the 'men and a half' are children of Lodril the phallus god, from the land of the proud Pamalt rune? Or, an _unconscious_ accident, but a _subconscious_ intention? I guess I would hate to think of ye olde beloved Glorantha creators _deliberately_ cooking up an array of symbolism like that. I do use Agimori in my pseudo-Gloranthan campaign. They have red hair and are generally taller than average humans; they do well in heat and hate the cold, but are otherwise toned down. The question of race in gaming would make an interesting sociological study, come to think of it! With few exceptions (Land of the Ninja, Bushido), fantasy (and other, for that matter) RPGs are marketed to a white crowd. The campaign 'worlds' are pretty much always inhabited by white-folk -- at least as the central narrative group. Even Glorantha focuses on the Warerans (or however it's spelled). I think I always felt a tinge of discomfort, even back in the late '70's when I first began playing AD&D (tm, copyright), when there in black and white were listed the various humanoid 'races', with their range of acceptable 'stats' so neatly set out in charts. Elves just can't _possibly_ have an INT or CHA of less than 9, oh no, and half-orcs, those beastial brutes, are terribly strong, but mighty ugly and certainly incapable of the sophistication needed for magic. And of course they are described as "fecund". Wonder who they're a substitute for.... If you think about the Real World of the last 100 years or so, with its various manias for racial categorizations, and then the recent political suppression -- at least in public discourse and 'polite society' -- of such taxonomic obsessions (ie, since the fall of the Third Reich and its 'Rassenkunde'), the gaming world's interest in a 'fantasy' statistification of race might just begin to look like the contorted reemergence of a suppressed urge in a format (ie, a 'mere game') which _masks_ the Real World socio-historical context of and for that urge..... Still, if you wanna play a hobbit in a game that requires the quantification of all kinds of attributes, what can you do? In my pseudo-Glorantha campaign, provisionally set in the East Isles, I tell my players when they begin they look something between Dravidian and Pacific Islander, with the hint of a bluish tinge to their black hair. This raises eyebrows sometimes, but something in me just doesn't like it that players simply _assume_ that the characters they role-play look just like them. So what about it: are RPGs an engine of Revolution or Reaction, or just (a)pathetic Recreation?! Anyway, thanks for inspiring me to drone on like this. Hope it wasn't too much of a bore! -- Greg Fried PS: As to that very last point, it seems to me, without knowing him at all, that Greg Stafford IS attempting to use Glorantha as a way to think about our relation to Myth and Story in RL. (Among other things, I think of his remarks at the Con on HeroQuesting -- to the effect that if you want to understand what HQing is in RuneQuest, then you need to realize how each of us here [that is, there at the Con, in that room] can and may, with the proper consciousness, be involved in a heroquest.) Whether this is revolutionary or delusional on his part, I do not know (yet). Any thoughts? --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: Eastern Magic Message-ID: Date: 12 Mar 94 09:58:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3300 GF here for the third time. Loren: You make many good points in your posting on Kralori magic. In general, I agree that the ideal we should have before us in thinking about magic systems of the East is that they should really be DIFFERENT. What you say about a civilization that combines dragon magic with more local 'skill' ("Ki") magic seems to me an excellent example of what we should hope for. I have never used the Ki system from LotN. I do use something which may be like it. I call it 'Disciplines'. Every cult teaches 'disciplines' in those skills appropriate to the god. Frex, a cult analogous to Chalana Arroy would teach a discipline in First Aid. The character records his or her disciplines in 'points', usually in the range of 1 to 4. To use a discipline, the player must state how many points of discipline s/he is using before rolling a skill. Each point used gives a 5% bonus to the roll. If the roll is missed anyway, the PC loses that many points of current POW -- these points MUST be deducted from the PC's POW (ie, NOT from crystals, familiars, fetches, etc). If the PC makes the roll only because of the discipline, the points are still deducted from current POW, but the PC gets a POW check. Disciplines improve Special and Critical chances. If there is interest, I will outline how one acquires points of discipline. However, I think you are a bit hasty in shooting down the notions recently proposed. Granted, the system of 'Runes' may well be a Genertelan phenomenon, passed about by the God Learners. Fine. Let us assume this is so and that the Runes of RuneQuest are unknown in the East. But even assuming this, why can't we also assume that the East has developed its own 'graphics' for depicting, organizing and interpreting what they understand to be the basic forces of reality? If some genius more inspired than I would like to flesh out such an alternative system (as alternative, say, as pictograms are to phonetic alphabets), I would LOVE to see this! Indeed, I imagine the color (chromatic) magic system IS just such an alternative intepretative system. (Sandy! Please dig up your notes! *Slavver! Slavver!*) OK, now assuming that the East has its own (or a plural 'their own') representational system(s), let us -- for the sake of simplicity here -- refer to the notations of such a system (or systems) as 'runes', even if these units of notation are as alien as an 'alphabet' of colors. So, the East has its own runes, then, its own language of magic and power. What still interests me is this: a magic system which allows the sorcerer to play with various layers of interpretative meaning to each 'rune'. So, for all I know, in the chromatic magic system, black might have the obvious meaning of Darkness, a slightly less obvious meaning of Cold, perhaps one of Death or Pain; maybe Blindness; or Isolation. But perhaps also Solace and Contentment and Trust. See what I mean? What I want is a magic system which is 'mystical', as Nils puts it. That is to say, a system which allows for different levels of insight into the language of reality (the 'runes') and which allows for an interpretative play with the resulting power of that language (ie, different kinds and _qualities_ of magical proficiency). This is what I meant by thinking of the runes (however we are to construe these) as 'poems' which may receive 'interpretations' ranging from the crude and easy to the sublime and impossible -- interpretations which then have their magical effect as spells when wielded by the sorcerer! I know this is a lot to ask from a game system, but it's my 'wish list'! -- GF out. --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Runes, One True Wor(l)d, Smiths Message-ID: Date: 12 Mar 94 11:44:54 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3301 Joe Lannom replied to my views on initiation with a Runic concept. While I tend to view the Runes as expressions of the "natural" laws of the bubble in the Void called Glorantha, I think they somewhat fail to describe all the associations a character (or deity) undergoes when using a certain principle. From my write-up of the Aeolian Church of Heortland (still under construction, especially the rules part): "MYTHOS AND HISTORY Glorantha was created when Creator formed Grower and Maker. From both sprang the Spirit pervading the world, Glorantha. Grower and Maker obeyed the Runes Creator had devised, and out of their actions formed the first element, Darkness, from which flowed Water, inside which grew Earth, above which lay Sky. Between these two Air sprang into being, the last and most sophisticated of Elements. ..." Of course this is as much doctrine as it holds "objective" truths, but this somewhat summarizes my view of the Runes in Glorantha. Joe also states that initiation to no specific deity was like keeping on studying without making a Major. I agree, but this is what e.g. 7Mother worship is about - to keep on studying all the facets of the Lunar way. Maybe the Orlanthi are prone to take unconsidered decisions. That the oddness of certain non-mainstream cults in the Orlanth pantheon might be overstated will try to prove with a bit of source criticism. I'll take a favorite quote of this list to show how even the most dualistic among us (led by Nick Brooke) can fall into the trap of "One True World". David Dunham used the much-quoted "Report on the Orlanthi" to refute some of my theses on Sartarite worship, whereupon I reread both the passages and the editorial of Jalk's Book. There I found some of my views backed up by Greg's writing: KoS p.194f "The _Report on the Orlanthi_ is [...] somebody's intensive study and analysis of the Orlanthi culture" - i.e. a Gloranthan literature source subject to Gloranthan view, therefore subject to uncritical views heartless God Learner scholars like me can make Void. "Little betrays its date, internally, except to make it clear this is the way of the Heortlings. [...] The details are for a culture which is agricultural and transhumant, and whch has clans of several hundred adults. We can believe that this is information about the Orlanthi ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ peoples of Dragon Pass during the Hero Wars." First, this introoduction clearly states that the object of observation is but one facet of the Orlanthi peoples in/around Dragon Pass, the Heortlings. Presumably from Heortland, and untainted by Hendriki Malkioni practises. THEREFORE THIS TEXT DOES NOT COVER THE PARTS OF SARTAR WHERE OTHER DEITIES LIKE ELMAL (e.g. among the Enhyl Clan of the Colymar, p.206) OR HUMAKT (like among the Lismelder and Ducks) ARE SIMILAR OR EVEN GREATER IN FOOLOWING THAN THE DESCRIBED ORLANTH WORSHIPPERS! (calming down, catching breath). The whole text scrutinizes just one facet of the multiple Theyalan societies in and around Sartar, and to make his point clear, the author has chosen a "pure" Orlanthi example. Consequently, his comments on less pure practises among these people will be grossly oversimplified, and therefore only of limited value when discussing tribes or clans with clearly deviant practises, like the Lismelder tribe Humakt worship, like the Enhyl Clan Elmal-worship, like the Vantaros tribe Yelmalio worship, like the Hendriki Stygian/Aeolian practises, like the Kitori darkness ties. Maybe the Night Jumpers had Orlanthi associated Fly spells, but the very same Jalk's Book which David uses to counter my argument provided the source for my speculations: on p.196 Tarkalor "sought allies [in a feud against Kitori clans] among the enemies of his father, and promised the disgruntled Elmali that they could have their own lands, and the chance to make their own rules, if they would help him in his task against darkness.They did, and as a result [...] The conwuered lands were divided among the victors. [...] The Volsaxi tribe was begun, and the Sun Dome Temple too." The Night Jumpers are mentioned on p.174 in "An Earlier Argrath", giving the Tarkalorsaga as source. No cult affiliations are explicitly stated, and the magic used for the "jumps" sound suspicously like Mastakos' Teleport spell, which is common Orlanthi associate magic (the "steps" are mentioned in the Mastakos myths as well, with very similar phrasing). The ability to easily fly at night involves two spells: Flight from Orlanth (or Aeolian sorcery? ), and Catseye from Yelmalio/Elmal. (They are mentioned in CHDP as a military unit giving a decisive success against Queen Penelori, who had a troll bodyguard, at the Battle of Dwernapple, too.) Why all these quotes? For one thing, my ego asks me to defend my position, for the other thing, IMO it needs pointng out that the texts in KoS are not the last and single truth on all Orlanthi, let alone all of Sartar. The much used "Report on the Orlanthi" describes just one facet of their complex culture, highlighted at one time in one place, but this does not mean that the customs in other tribes or clans cannot differ strongly from these, even if close by. The Colymar Book in the same Jalk's Book that gives the "Report on the Orlanthi" conflicts in several major points with the Report. I think Greg did not want to spread One True Wor(l)d, and viewing the sources closely, he succeeded almost completely to give out useful information without enforcing a new creed. David also gave a counter-example to my indented smiths. I simultaneously agree and disagree with him. There are wandering smiths in Sartar, belonging to the Gustbran cult. In Greg's "The Orlanth Pantheon" (I think from Different Worlds) Gustbran "is sometimes portrayed as working the forges within Orlanth's homestead, but any worshipper will say that they are either only visiting or are working temporarily for the other gods." I think the Third Eye Blue family in Apple Lane is very exotic, and ironsmiths will normally be tied to the cults which provide "Enchant Iron". If TEB smiths were comon, they'd be likely to traditionally be indented to their place of work and living, simply because of their Western Origin which tends to make peasant-class inhabitants stay where the are. TEB spread over Peloria through Carmania, and these feudal lords will have done their best to land-bind them either by grants of land or sheer enforcement. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: argrath@aol.com Subject: Religion generally, Gagarth esp. Message-ID: <9403120924.tn12393@aol.com> Date: 12 Mar 94 14:24:37 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3302 Joerg Baumgartner writes: >What do people think about all-round magic users, i.e. people > with memorized divine, spirit and sorcerous spells? Would they > rather accept matrix users of all varieties? I have a real problem with that, both from a game and a world perspective. The game problem (of overgeneralization) tends to balance itself out, since nothing succeeds like excess and generalists don't exceed. The world problem is worse, and Greg Stafford has told me in personal communication that the three forms of magic are mutually exclusive. A person has to dedicate his mind and soul to just one. This is inconsistent with the rules, which present shamans (frex) as mostly having divine magic, too. What I think he meant (to salvage some consistency here) is that a person has to pick a single magical path, whether it be shaman of Telmor, priest of Orlanth in the Aggar tradition, or wizard in the Zorakarkat tradition. Note that none of the published paths use all three of what the God Learners identified as types of magic. There's been lots of fascinating discussion on the whole religion topic since I started getting the Daily, and I'll just comment on one point: I agree that different regions and tribes have very different practices and beliefs. The view of Glorantha that emphasizes similarities over differences is a God Learner mistake. Jim DeGon writes: >Where can I get info on Gagarth the Wild Hunter of Prax? >Besides these tidbits, I have seen nothing: >1> I think Gods of Glorantha has some info, but that source is >never much help. Effectively Gagarth is the destroyer. It >gives the impression that he is the landbound equivalent of >Gloomshark I think. Hmm! >2> Martin Crim's tribes article proposes a permanent shrine at >Moonbroth. That comes from _Nomad Gods_, where you could summon Gagarth at Moonbroth. >3> RQ-Adventures' Block issue(#3) says that Gagarth guards the >east of Prax(Wastes?) for Stormbull, warding off chaos. >How does a Gagarth band start? How to join one? Do they use a >multitude of Praxian animals? If one initiates to Gagarth, and >successfully DI's does the Wild Hunt show up and kill >_everyone_? Are Stormbull and Gagarth associated? Tales of the Reaching Moon published a Gagarth cult some time back. Email David Gadbois for the issue. It answers none of your questions except the last, however, and the answer to that is no. >Additionally, what information is there on the multitudes of >spirit cults in Prax. Basic skeletal raison-d'etre 's would be >useful in building your own spirit cult structures. Has anyone >built an expanded Prosopaedia which covers these cults? Chaosium has an unpublished version of all of these, with one- paragraph descriptions and rune spells. I might mention that Stephen Martin and Greg Stafford have written a top secret Prospectus for _Heroes of the King_, a planned anthology of short fiction about Argrath. I'm not allowed to give out copies of it (no, I'm not kidding), but it basically says that Glorantha is a lot more like the real world than the rules say. The rules imply that, frex, armies that are in hopeless positions teleport away, since an average group of 10 men will have one who succeeds in DI, and he can take 12 men with him. DI is not as common or successful as the RQ rules say, and neither is magical healing. "Let us cross over the river and rest in the shade of the trees." --Martin Crim --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 12 Mar 1994, part 1 Message-ID: <9403121740.AA03776@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 12 Mar 94 17:40:54 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3303 Paul Reilly here. Someone suggested using RUnes as a basis for Kralorelan sorcery. Loren Miller replies: >I have a major problem with any attempt to use Runes as a basis for Despite my love of Runes, I am in Loren's camp here. I think that the practice of calling Kralorelan magic and what Western Wizards practice by the same name should be dropped. I'd rather go back to the 'four modes' in Cults of Terror, where the Easterners practice mysticism. Sandy, was the decision to use a combination of the other three magic modes for the Easterners due to a shift in thinking, or is it just too hard to write rules for mysticism? I like Loren's comments; go back and read his article if you missed it. On Runic Sorcery, I think this a viable approach for Westerners; can post more on this if there is interest. See my article in Free INT #5 (if you read German) - Paul P.S. Nice post on magical protection from Joerg. Any spell, even Shield, will have some flaw. (At least from an Islamic point of view, anything made by a created being has at least one flaw.) Without knowing the mechanics behind the spell, it is impossible to point out exactly what the flaw is. Let's pick a couple of mechanics, then I will say what a ''critical hit'' which bypasses this protection might be. 1. My idea of helper spirits doing Protection/Countermagic, and a brilliant attack which confuses them, was already mentioned. If you want a rationalization why Protection can get bypassed and Countermagic can't, it is because it is harder for a spirit in the Otherworld to deal with material objects than spells, which are primarily in the Otherworld themselves. (Or allow crits on spells to bypass Countermagic.) 2. A Wizard places a protection on a Knight. "All harm" is way to vague to put in a spell, so he lists every circumstance he can think of, but some weird combination of events obviates his protection. Cf. Llew. Well, I think people can make up their own examples. The point is, nothing is perfect, even magical protection. The crit rule is a crude mechanism to model this. --------------------- From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink) Subject: Beastmen, The World's Axis and Bandleader Message-ID: <199403122250.AA26806@panix.com> Date: 12 Mar 94 12:50:42 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3304 mds2@ukc.ac.uk (Throatwobbler Mangrove) incants: R>Any cult descriptions made up by you for cults not in print/out of print. >I'm especially interested in any Hykim & Mikyh (or is that Hikym & Mykih?) >cults as my players find then rather enjoyable cults to play and I'm always >having to think up obscure spells for lots of animals... Sandy might have something, but as far as I can tell nothing has ever been published that isn't in _Troll Gods_ and _Gods of Glorantha_. jpolk@opus.starlab.csc.com (James Polk) writes: R>KoS, page 38, states, "The Polestar...sent his favorite lover to >help. This was the Starbrow." Sandy knows the Truth (this happened in the Chaosium house campaign which he ran, as I recall) but I believe Kallyr was an Orlanthi (Vinga?) heroquester who encountered the Pole Star on the God Plane, not a Pole Star cultist. The phrase you quote, I think, indicates Pole Star sending Kallyr back after her death. --Carl