Bell Digest v940314p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 14 Mar 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Agimori and mori
Message-ID: 
Date: 12 Mar 94 08:52:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3298

Greg Fried here.

I have been trying to send a letter to Nick Brooke, but for some reason
(probably my incompetence), I can't get it through, so I will expose
myself to you all.... 


---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: more Agimori
Message-ID: 
Date: 12 Mar 94 09:00:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3299

Argh.  OK.  Here's what I wanted to post:

Nick,

Just wanted to let you know that I thought your post about a week ago on the
Agimori was spot on.  You did something which I found rather refreshing: you
gave a critical socio-cultural reading of a Gloranthan construct from
_outside_ of the Gloranthan 'perspective'.  

Now, it's not that I want the RQDaily suddenly to transform itself into a
lit-crit journal whose subject matter is fantasy worlds.  But I do think this
particular topic was due for a little airing out.  Given the gender and
ethnic profile of most gamers, the depiction of fantasy 'races' can get a bit
hairy sometimes, and I think we owe it to ourselves to check in on our
overheated imaginations every now and then. 

BTW, do you think it is simply an accident the 'men and a half' are children
of Lodril the phallus god, from the land of the proud Pamalt rune?
Or, an _unconscious_ accident, but a _subconscious_ intention?  I guess I would
hate to think of ye olde beloved Glorantha creators _deliberately_
cooking up an array of symbolism like that.

I do use Agimori in my pseudo-Gloranthan campaign.  They have red hair
and are generally taller than average humans; they do well in heat and
hate the cold, but are otherwise toned down.

The question of race in gaming would make an interesting sociological
study, come to think of it!  With few exceptions (Land of the Ninja,
Bushido), fantasy (and other, for that matter) RPGs are marketed to a
white crowd.  The campaign 'worlds' are pretty much always inhabited
by white-folk -- at least as the central narrative group.  Even
Glorantha focuses on the Warerans (or however it's spelled).

I think I always felt a tinge of discomfort, even back in the late
'70's when I first began playing AD&D (tm, copyright), when there in
black and white were listed the various humanoid 'races', with their
range of acceptable 'stats' so neatly set out in charts.  Elves just
can't _possibly_ have an INT or CHA of less than 9, oh no, and
half-orcs, those beastial brutes, are terribly strong, but mighty ugly
and certainly incapable of the sophistication needed for magic.  And
of course they are described as "fecund".  Wonder who they're a
substitute for....

If you think about the Real World of the last 100 years or so, with
its various manias for racial categorizations, and then the recent
political suppression -- at least in public discourse and 'polite society' --
of such taxonomic obsessions (ie, since the fall of the Third Reich and
its 'Rassenkunde'), the gaming world's
interest in a 'fantasy' statistification of race might just begin to
look like the contorted reemergence of a suppressed urge in a format
(ie, a 'mere game') which _masks_ the Real World socio-historical
context of and for that urge.....

Still, if you wanna play a hobbit in a game that requires the
quantification of all kinds of attributes, what can you do?

In my pseudo-Glorantha campaign, provisionally set in the East Isles, I
tell my players when they begin they look something between Dravidian
and Pacific Islander, with the hint of a bluish tinge to their black
hair.  This raises eyebrows sometimes, but something
in me just doesn't like it that players simply _assume_ that the
characters they role-play look just like them. 

So what about it: are RPGs an engine of Revolution or Reaction, or
just (a)pathetic Recreation?!

Anyway, thanks for inspiring me to drone on like this.  Hope it wasn't
too much of a bore!

-- Greg Fried

PS: As to that very last point, it seems to me, without knowing him at
all, that Greg Stafford IS attempting to use Glorantha as a way to
think about our relation to Myth and Story in RL.  (Among other
things, I think of his remarks at the Con on HeroQuesting --  to the
effect that if you want to understand what HQing is in RuneQuest, then
you need to realize how each of us here [that is, there at the Con, in
that room] can and may, with the proper consciousness, be involved in
a heroquest.) Whether this is revolutionary or delusional on his part, I
do not know (yet).  Any thoughts?


---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Eastern Magic
Message-ID: 
Date: 12 Mar 94 09:58:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3300

GF here for the third time.

Loren:
You make many good points in your posting on Kralori magic.  In general, I
agree that the ideal we should have before us in thinking about magic systems
of the East is that they should really be DIFFERENT.  What you say about a
civilization that combines dragon magic with more local 'skill' ("Ki") magic
seems to me an excellent example of what we should hope for.

I have never used the Ki system from LotN.  I do use something which may be
like it.  I call it 'Disciplines'.  Every cult teaches 'disciplines' in those
skills appropriate to the god.  Frex, a cult analogous to Chalana Arroy would
teach a discipline in First Aid.  The character records his or her
disciplines in 'points', usually in the range of 1 to 4.  To use a
discipline, the player must state how many points of discipline s/he is using
before rolling a skill.  Each point used gives a 5% bonus to the roll.  If
the roll is missed anyway, the PC loses that many points of current POW --
these points MUST be deducted from the PC's POW (ie, NOT from crystals,
familiars, fetches, etc).  If the PC makes the roll only because of the
discipline, the points are still deducted from current POW, but the PC gets a
POW check.  Disciplines improve Special and Critical chances.  If there is
interest, I will outline how one acquires points of discipline.

However, I think you are a bit hasty in shooting down the notions recently
proposed.  Granted, the system of 'Runes' may well be a Genertelan
phenomenon, passed about by the God Learners.  Fine.  Let us assume this is
so and that the Runes of RuneQuest are unknown in the East.  

But even assuming this, why can't we also assume that the East has developed
its own 'graphics' for depicting, organizing and interpreting what they
understand to be the basic forces of reality?  If some genius more inspired
than I would like to flesh out such an alternative system (as alternative,
say, as pictograms are to phonetic alphabets), I would LOVE to see this! 
Indeed, I imagine the color (chromatic) magic system IS just such an
alternative intepretative system.  (Sandy!  Please dig up your notes! 
*Slavver! Slavver!*)

OK, now assuming that the East has its own (or a plural 'their own')
representational system(s), let us -- for the sake of simplicity here -- refer
to the notations of such a system (or systems) as 'runes', even if these
units of notation are as alien as an 'alphabet' of colors.  So, the
East has its own runes, then, its own language of magic and power. What still
interests me is this: a magic system which allows the sorcerer to play with
various layers of interpretative meaning to each 'rune'.  So, for all I know,
in the chromatic magic system, black might have the obvious meaning of
Darkness, a slightly less obvious meaning of Cold, perhaps one of Death or
Pain; maybe Blindness; or Isolation. But perhaps also Solace and
Contentment and Trust. See what I mean?  

What I want is a magic system  which is 'mystical', as Nils puts it. 
That is to say, a system which allows for different levels of insight
into the language of reality (the 'runes') and which allows for an
interpretative play with the resulting power of that language (ie,
different kinds and _qualities_ of magical proficiency).  This is what
I meant by thinking of the runes (however we are to construe these) as
'poems' which may receive 'interpretations' ranging from the crude and
easy to the sublime and impossible -- interpretations which then have
their magical effect as spells when wielded by the sorcerer!

I know this is a lot to ask from a game system, but it's my 'wish list'!

-- GF out.

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Runes, One True Wor(l)d, Smiths
Message-ID: 
Date: 12 Mar 94 11:44:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3301



Joe Lannom replied to my views on initiation with a Runic concept.

While I tend to view the Runes as expressions of the "natural" laws of 
the bubble in the Void called Glorantha, I think they somewhat fail to 
describe all the associations a character (or deity) undergoes when 
using a certain principle.

From my write-up of the Aeolian Church of Heortland (still under 
construction, especially the rules part):

"MYTHOS AND HISTORY

Glorantha was created when Creator formed Grower and Maker. From both 
sprang the Spirit pervading the world, Glorantha.
Grower and Maker obeyed the Runes Creator had devised, and out of their 
actions formed the first element, Darkness, from which flowed Water, 
inside which grew Earth, above which lay Sky. Between these two Air sprang 
into being, the last and most sophisticated of Elements.
..."

Of course this is as much doctrine as it holds "objective" truths, but 
this somewhat summarizes my view of the Runes in Glorantha.

Joe also states that initiation to no specific deity was like keeping 
on studying without making a Major.

I agree, but this is what e.g. 7Mother worship is about - to keep on 
studying all the facets of the Lunar way.

Maybe the Orlanthi are prone to take unconsidered decisions.


That the oddness of certain non-mainstream cults in the Orlanth pantheon 
might be overstated  will try to prove with a bit of source criticism.

I'll take a favorite quote of this list to show how even the most 
dualistic among us (led by Nick Brooke) can fall into the trap of "One 
True World".


David Dunham used the much-quoted "Report on the Orlanthi" to refute some 
of my theses on Sartarite worship, whereupon I reread both the passages 
and the editorial of Jalk's Book. There I found some of my views backed 
up by Greg's writing:

KoS p.194f
"The _Report on the Orlanthi_ is [...] somebody's intensive study and 
analysis of the Orlanthi culture" - i.e. a Gloranthan literature source 
subject to Gloranthan view, therefore subject to uncritical views 
heartless God Learner scholars like me can make Void.

"Little betrays its date, internally, except to make it clear this is 
the way of the Heortlings. [...] The details are for a culture which is 
agricultural and transhumant, and whch has clans of several hundred 
adults. We can believe that this is information about the Orlanthi 
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
peoples of Dragon Pass during the Hero Wars."

First, this introoduction clearly states that the object of observation 
is but one facet of the Orlanthi peoples in/around Dragon Pass, the 
Heortlings. Presumably from Heortland, and untainted by Hendriki 
Malkioni practises.
THEREFORE THIS TEXT DOES NOT COVER THE PARTS OF SARTAR WHERE OTHER 
DEITIES LIKE ELMAL (e.g. among the Enhyl Clan of the Colymar, p.206) OR 
HUMAKT (like among the Lismelder and Ducks) ARE SIMILAR OR EVEN GREATER 
IN FOOLOWING THAN THE DESCRIBED ORLANTH WORSHIPPERS! (calming down, 
catching breath).

The whole text scrutinizes just one facet of the multiple Theyalan 
societies in and around Sartar, and to make his point clear, the author 
has chosen a "pure" Orlanthi example. Consequently, his comments on 
less pure practises among these people will be grossly oversimplified, 
and therefore only of limited value when discussing tribes or clans 
with clearly deviant practises, like the Lismelder tribe Humakt 
worship, like the Enhyl Clan Elmal-worship, like the Vantaros tribe 
Yelmalio worship, like the Hendriki Stygian/Aeolian practises, like the 
Kitori darkness ties.

Maybe the Night Jumpers had Orlanthi associated Fly spells, but the 
very same Jalk's Book which David uses to counter my argument provided 
the source for my speculations: on p.196 Tarkalor "sought allies [in a 
feud against Kitori clans] among the enemies of his father, and 
promised the disgruntled Elmali that they could have their own lands, 
and the chance to make their own rules, if they would help him in his 
task against darkness.They did, and as a result [...] The conwuered 
lands were divided among the victors. [...] The Volsaxi tribe was 
begun, and the Sun Dome Temple too."

The Night Jumpers are mentioned on p.174 in "An Earlier Argrath", 
giving the Tarkalorsaga as source. No cult affiliations are explicitly 
stated, and the magic used for the "jumps" sound suspicously like 
Mastakos' Teleport spell, which is common Orlanthi associate magic (the 
"steps" are mentioned in the Mastakos myths as well, with very similar 
phrasing). The ability to easily fly at night involves two spells: 
Flight from Orlanth (or Aeolian sorcery? ), and Catseye from 
Yelmalio/Elmal.
(They are mentioned in CHDP as a military unit giving a decisive 
success against Queen Penelori, who had a troll bodyguard, at the 
Battle of Dwernapple, too.)


Why all these quotes?

For one thing, my ego asks me to defend my position, for the other 
thing, IMO it needs pointng out that the texts in KoS are not the last 
and single truth on all Orlanthi, let alone all of Sartar.

The much used "Report on the Orlanthi" describes just one facet of 
their complex culture, highlighted at one time in one place, but this 
does not mean that the customs in other tribes or clans cannot differ 
strongly from these, even if close by. The Colymar Book in the same 
Jalk's Book that gives the "Report on the Orlanthi" conflicts in 
several major points with the Report. I think Greg did not want to 
spread One True Wor(l)d, and viewing the sources closely, he succeeded 
almost completely to give out useful information without enforcing a 
new creed.


David also gave a counter-example to my indented smiths. I simultaneously 
agree and disagree with him.

There are wandering smiths in Sartar, belonging to the Gustbran cult. In 
Greg's "The Orlanth Pantheon" (I think from Different Worlds) Gustbran "is 
sometimes portrayed as working the forges within Orlanth's homestead, but 
any worshipper will say that they are either only visiting or are working 
temporarily for the other gods."

I think the Third Eye Blue family in Apple Lane is very exotic, and 
ironsmiths will normally be tied to the cults which provide "Enchant Iron".

If TEB smiths were comon, they'd be likely to traditionally be indented to 
their place of work and living, simply because of their Western Origin 
which tends to make peasant-class inhabitants stay where the are. TEB 
spread over Peloria through Carmania, and these feudal lords will have 
done their best to land-bind them either by grants of land or sheer 
enforcement.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: argrath@aol.com
Subject: Religion generally, Gagarth esp.
Message-ID: <9403120924.tn12393@aol.com>
Date: 12 Mar 94 14:24:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3302

Joerg Baumgartner writes:
>What do people think about all-round magic users, i.e. people 
> with memorized divine, spirit and sorcerous spells? Would they
> rather accept matrix users of all varieties?

     I have a real problem with that, both from a game and a
world perspective.  The game problem (of overgeneralization)
tends to balance itself out, since nothing succeeds like excess
and generalists don't exceed.  
     The world problem is worse, and Greg Stafford has told me in
personal communication that the three forms of magic are mutually
exclusive.  A person has to dedicate his mind and soul to just
one.  This is inconsistent with the rules, which present shamans
(frex) as mostly having divine magic, too.  
     What I think he meant (to salvage some consistency here) is
that a person has to pick a single magical path, whether it be
shaman of Telmor, priest of Orlanth in the Aggar tradition, or
wizard in the Zorakarkat tradition.  Note that none of the
published paths use all three of what the God Learners identified
as types of magic.
     There's been lots of fascinating discussion on the whole
religion topic since I started getting the Daily, and I'll just
comment on one point: I agree that different regions and tribes
have very different practices and beliefs.  The view of
Glorantha that emphasizes similarities over differences is a God
Learner mistake.

Jim DeGon writes:
>Where can I get info on Gagarth the Wild Hunter of Prax? 
>Besides these tidbits, I have seen nothing:

>1> I think Gods of Glorantha has some info, but that source is
>never much help.  Effectively Gagarth is the destroyer.  It
>gives the impression that he is the landbound equivalent of
>Gloomshark I think.

Hmm!  

>2> Martin Crim's tribes article proposes a permanent shrine at
>Moonbroth.

That comes from _Nomad Gods_, where you could summon Gagarth at
Moonbroth.

>3> RQ-Adventures' Block issue(#3) says that Gagarth guards the
>east of Prax(Wastes?)  for Stormbull, warding off chaos.
 
>How does a Gagarth band start?  How to join one?  Do they use a
>multitude of Praxian animals?  If one initiates to Gagarth, and
>successfully DI's does the Wild Hunt show up and kill
>_everyone_?  Are Stormbull and Gagarth associated?

Tales of the Reaching Moon published a Gagarth cult some time
back.  Email David Gadbois for the issue.  It answers none of
your questions except the last, however, and the answer to that
is no.  

>Additionally, what information is there on the multitudes of
>spirit cults in Prax.  Basic skeletal raison-d'etre 's would be
>useful in building your own spirit cult structures.  Has anyone
>built an expanded Prosopaedia which covers these cults?

Chaosium has an unpublished version of all of these, with one-
paragraph descriptions and rune spells.  

I might mention that Stephen Martin and Greg Stafford have
written a top secret Prospectus for _Heroes of the King_, a
planned anthology of short fiction about Argrath.  I'm not
allowed to give out copies of it (no, I'm not kidding), but it
basically says that Glorantha is a lot more like the real world
than the rules say.  The rules imply that, frex, armies that are
in hopeless positions teleport away, since an average group of 10
men will have one who succeeds in DI, and he can take 12 men with
him.  DI is not as common or successful as the RQ rules say, and
neither is magical healing.  

"Let us cross over the river and rest in the shade of the trees."
--Martin Crim

---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 12 Mar 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <9403121740.AA03776@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 12 Mar 94 17:40:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3303

Paul Reilly here.
  Someone suggested using RUnes as a basis for Kralorelan sorcery.  Loren
Miller replies:
>I have a major problem with any attempt to use Runes as a basis for

  Despite my love of Runes, I am in Loren's camp here.  I think that the
practice of calling Kralorelan magic and what Western Wizards practice
by the same name should be dropped.  I'd rather go back to the 'four modes'
in Cults of Terror, where the Easterners practice mysticism.

  Sandy, was the decision to use a combination of the other three magic
modes for the Easterners due to a shift in thinking, or is it just
too hard to write rules for mysticism?  

  I  like Loren's comments; go back and read his article if you missed it.

  On Runic Sorcery, I think this a viable approach for Westerners; can post
more on this if there is interest.  See my article in Free INT #5 (if you
read German)

 - Paul

  P.S.  Nice post on magical protection from Joerg.  Any spell, even Shield,
will have some flaw.  (At least from an Islamic point of view, anything
made by a created being has at least one flaw.)  Without knowing the
mechanics behind the spell, it is impossible to point out exactly what
the flaw is.  Let's pick a couple of mechanics, then I will say
what a ''critical hit'' which bypasses this protection might be.

1.  My idea of helper spirits doing Protection/Countermagic, and a brilliant
attack which confuses them, was already mentioned.  If you want a
rationalization why Protection can get bypassed and Countermagic can't, it
is because it is harder for a spirit in the Otherworld to deal with
material objects than spells, which are primarily in the Otherworld themselves.
(Or allow crits on spells to bypass Countermagic.)

2.  A Wizard places a protection on a Knight.  "All harm" is way to vague to
put in a spell, so he lists every circumstance he can think of, but some
weird combination of events obviates his protection.  Cf. Llew.

  Well, I think people can make up their own examples.  The point is,
nothing is perfect, even magical protection.  The crit rule is a crude
mechanism to model this.

---------------------

From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink)
Subject: Beastmen, The World's Axis and Bandleader
Message-ID: <199403122250.AA26806@panix.com>
Date: 12 Mar 94 12:50:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3304

mds2@ukc.ac.uk (Throatwobbler Mangrove) incants:

R>Any cult descriptions made up by you for cults not in print/out of print.
 >I'm especially interested in any Hykim & Mikyh (or is that Hikym & Mykih?)
 >cults as my players find then rather enjoyable cults to play and I'm always
 >having to think up obscure spells for lots of animals...

  Sandy might have something, but as far as I can tell nothing has
ever been published that isn't in _Troll Gods_ and _Gods of Glorantha_.

jpolk@opus.starlab.csc.com (James Polk) writes:

R>KoS, page 38, states, "The Polestar...sent his favorite lover to
 >help. This was the Starbrow."

  Sandy knows the Truth (this happened in the Chaosium house campaign
which he ran, as I recall) but I believe Kallyr was an Orlanthi (Vinga?)
heroquester who encountered the Pole Star on the God Plane, not a Pole
Star cultist.  The phrase you quote, I think, indicates Pole Star
sending Kallyr back after her death.

        --Carl