Bell Digest v940315p1

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 15 Mar 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (alex)
Subject: Initiation.
Message-ID: <9403141652.AA13597@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 14 Mar 94 16:52:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3310



Joerg:
> [Alex, after stating that adulthood initiation needn't be religious 
> initiation]

Let me clarify my position: I believe the vast majority of adulthood
initiations _do_ include initiations, to a specific cult, and almost always
one's parent's.  The objections to 'having' to choose a cult at this stage
seem to be pretty feeble, when set against the patterns of worship (and
occupation) in any number of pre-Modern societies.

> I'm defending Glorantha against RuneQuest, so to say. 

This is fine to a point, but RQ is one of our main sources on Glorantha,
or at least the main vessel for such.  If you can convince me cultic
initiation is just a rules artifact, I'll gladly kiss it goodbye.

> An initiate of Humakt the noble warrior as worshipped in the Holy Country 
> would have serious identity problems in a Carmanian Humakt temple.

Undoubtably, but I think he'd still be an Initiate as far as Magic and
The God were concerned:  whether the local yokels would _let_ him act
as an initiate is a different matter, of course.

In fact, I believe Greg has said it would be possible for priests to regain
spells in a temple which worships an _utterly_ different aspect of the
same god, one that doesn't even grant the same spells, etc.  I think he's
mildly out to lunch here, however.  I mean, it almost sounds as if he thinks
the Gloranthan gods are _objectively real_, or something silly like that.
(Optional smiley.)

> I proposed the local significance as a drawback to low initiate state, none 
> the local initiates notice as long as they stay at home.

Ah, I misunderstood your point, I think.  As I don't think Low Initiate
status should exist anywhere, I'm perhaps not qualified to express an
opinion on whether it should be transferable. ;-/

However, I would say that if one worships some group of deities,
collectively, after the fashion of the Seven Mothers cult (say, if there
were a Orlanth's Hearth cult), one wouldn't generally be recognised as an
Initiate of any given member of the group (say, Orlanth) in a area where
that group is not so worshipped, nor as an initiate of some different
group including the same god (say, the Lightbringers), worshipped in the
same manner.  But if one encountered worship of (substantially) the same
group, Initiation would be 'transferable'.

Notice the careful distinction I attempt between 'group of deities'
and 'pantheon': I'm prepared to grant that there could be some form of
'collective' worship of _smallish_ groups of gods, but the idea of
worshipping a _whole bleedin' pantheon_ is stretching credibility.
(Has anyone _counted_ the bleeders?  (From KoS, say.)  Lots of 'em.)

My argument is that a particular group, of four or six associated deities
_may_ be worshipped together, if locally particulary important, but
generally less so than the 7M, which I'd rather see as a limiting case
than as a dangerous precedent for worshipping dozens of gods in a single
religion.  Other such worship would be on a much more local scale, and
would be even more markedly `introductory' worship, perhaps for a
particular number of years only.  I think there should also be some sort
of 'attachment' to a particular (sub)cult, as the 7M writeup indicates,
to some extent.  (I'm toying with the idea of a Brother's Ring 'cult' on
these lines.)  If someone really wants to worship fairly unrelated deities
(not considered to be associates in his neck of the woods), say Lhankor Mhy
and Yinkin, he can darned well join both, say I.  (Or worship both as a
lay member.  (Or join Orlanth, conveniently an associate of both.))

> When travelling 
> farther than the next two cities, why not let them experience scenes like:
> "What do you mean, lay member? Can't you see I'm an initiate?" "My son, 
> what your priest led can hardly be called an initiation [...]

This implies an ability for a priest to perceive initiatory status to a finer
degree than I would play, but it sounds like good clean player-mucking-about
fun to me. ;-)

> The existing fuzzy link to all mothers would be redirected to YT. The other 
> deities would remain associates, and a few more associates would enter the 
> picture.

Okay.  This seems reasonable, and I'm certainly happier with this particular
case than the whole generality of the proposed changes.  (But what new
associates?)

> I don't know whether it would be possible to fade out of one cult (e.g. 
> Danfive Xaron), become a "general" 7Mother initiate, and then move on to YT 
> without resacrificing at one point, and at least talking to DX's spirit of 
> reprisal.

"Erm, hello?" ;-)

This makes less sense, and I share your doubts as to whether it should be
possible.  However, I suspect that rune levels in the individual cults
becoming 7M Lords or Priestesses is not uncommon, though almost always
remaining as at least initiates or acolytes in the original cult.

> > This sounds good so far, since resurrection and teleportation are deemed
> > legitimate uses for DI for (almost) everyone.  But by this rationale, a
> > worshiipper should be able to appeal for a DI which any member of the
> > pantheon could do.  E.g., an Orlanthi cultist calling for "a hole to be
> > made in the earth", as Greg's original counterexample went.

> It would be unusual to ask Ernalda (or other earth deities) for other 
> things than protection (shielding) or healing.

Well, I just happened to cite the particular example from the WF article.
My general point is: if associate  of god  can do , but  can't,
do you necessarily want to let all initiates of  do  be DI, if by the
normal rules/guidelines they couldn't?  Note than Ernalda does have the
power to Command Gnomes: is this a reasonable sort of effect for an
Orlanth worshipper to able to DI for?

> Often one obscure Hero-cult would have the means to accomplish such feats.

And the more cults you include in the picture, the more the should-this-
person-really-be-able-to-do-this argument applies.

> > Boris:
> >> Ah, there's the rub.  According to King of Sartar, initiation into the
> >> culture (i.e. passage into adulthood) is a religious initiation.

> pp.239 and 242.

Reference appreciated: I don't think this is conclusive though.  In fact,
notice the use of the term 'desanctified'.

Furthermore, on p. 239:
"Individuals among the Orlanthi are defined by their age, [...], initiatory
status [...]."
This suggests that 'age' (non-adult, adult, etc) are not necesssarily
coincident with 'initiatory status' (non-initiate, initiate, etc).
Thus it would be possible to have an adult non-initiate.  (Or a non-adult
Initiate??)

And on page 245:
"Initiates [...].  This includes _almost_ every Orlanthi adult."
(Emphasis mine.)

And on a pragmatic note, if cultural initiation of 15 years olds
necessarily includes a religious initiation, and the youth desires to
join a cult other than his parents', this 'ups the stakes' considerably:
if he or she fails the initiation procedure, as is quite likely, are they
then exiled from the tribe?  (Doubtless this issue is intended to be
finessed by the Low Initiate rules, with presumably automatic acceptance
to this status.)

I don't dispute that the ritual has religous significance, but I contend
the initiation into the clan need not involve initiation, necessarily,
though in practise it usually would.

> Among others, I think Greg himself once stated that catholic saints cults 
> resemble a polytheistic religion more than a monotheistic religion.

I think you can really only claim it to be `henotheistic', after the fashion
of the Stygians or Aeolians, rather than full-blown polytheisism, and often
not even that.

> The way RuneQuest presents cults, each is a monotheistic religion which 
> happens to acknowledge other deities besides it.

Nope: you can (fairly) freely be a member of more than one cult, and each
cult includes the worship of others.  This sorta stuff gets you shot through
both lungs in monotheistic religions.

> > The `culture's religion' is Orlanth/Ernalda: they worship other gods
> > principally as associates.  I think this is pretty clear from KoS, and
> > elsewhere, myself, and see no deep problems with it.

> The only hints how associate worship works I remember are from Biturian's 
> travels, the Paps and the Aldrya scene, where Norayeep is allowed to 
> participate in the inner rites while Biturian isn't.

Rereading this (in CoP), Norayeep is in fact an Initiate, and cetainly would
be in RQ3 terms.  (Of Eiritha, I suppose, but any Earth cult (or other
associate of Eiritha?) would surely have sufficed.)  And Bituran's cult,
Lhankor Mhy, isn't even an associate of Eiritha (or any Earth cult), so
his exlusion isn't surprising.  (Actually he _isn't_ physically excluded,
though ordinarily he would have been, he just doesn't experience the ritual
in the way an initiate would.)

> A set of fully fledged examples certainly would help.

I agree.  Worship ceremonies are a bit of a mystery to anyone but Greg at
this point, but I would envisage something like the following, based on
one or two clues from the Gregster, and my own fevered ravings:

A worship ceremony takes the form of the reenactment of a particular myth:
in effect, is a minor heroquest.  Each participant initiate takes the part
of one of the gods involved, usually according to the cult or particular
sub cult they belong to, or at least as close as is possible.  How heavily
involved a particular cultist is depends on the particular myth, and on
what turnout of people there are in that role.

So for example performing The Wedding of Orlanth and Ernalda obviously
requires a decent turnout of both sets of cultists, and is effectively
a ceremony of both cults, equally, and whose temple it's being performed
in, and on whose holy day isn't as important.

If the ritual is The Arming of Orlanth, Ernalda initiates will be involved
much less closely, though I would allow any associate into all but the most
secret of rites.  (Ideally there should be a contingent from one of the
Thane cults on hand to assist (and best of all, a real-life Heler cultist
or ten), though even this is a less important role.)

> >> according to the literature there seems to be a step
> >> beyond lay membership that isn't quite the full "cult" initiate level.

> Expressis verbis in GoG for the cults of Aldrya and Yelm.

The very fact that this status is specifically mentioned for these two,
but not for almost all the others, suggests to me that there _isn't_ this
status in general, and that these are exceptional cases.  (Though inspection
of the full writeups for other cults reveal `lay member' type status not
mentioned in GoG, in some cases.)

"More important than simply being Initiated, which everyone does, is the
particular deity to which a person is initiated." -- Jalk's Book.

> > KoS does indeed speak of initiation of teenagers, but it also speaks fairly
> > emphatically about initiation to a specific deity.  If people think
> > 'initiation into a pantheon' is a great, or necessary, idea, fair enough,
> > but I think you'll find it hard to justify on the basis of published
> > material.

> Again I point to Norayeeps welcome as quasi-full initiate to earth 
> ceremonies.

RQ2 God Learnerism? ;-)

One could argue that the precise structure of the earth religions is a little
artificial: after all, a cultist could easily be a member (or even priestess)
of three or four earth cults in her lifetime, which is somewhat extravagent
on the POW side under the RQ3 rules.  But it makes sense that a cultist
should worship one aspect at a time (and the others by association), however
this is implemented, I think.

I wonder about troublesome cases like Barntar and Voriof too, I admit:
I'm tempted to fudge these by saying they're worshipped as aspects (or
subcults, or associates) of Ernalda or Orlanth, but I'm only half-
convinced, myself.

My votes for Voriof spells: Find Sheep (1pt spirit), Cry Wolf (1pt rune).

> > Since, according to KoS, almost everyone joins Orlanth or Ernalda [--]

> KoS doesn't give account at all to all the Yelmalio/Elmal worshippers in 
> Sartar.

Since the Elmal worshippers occur in whole clans and tribes, I would imagine
that in them, Elmal initiation is approximately as wholesale as Orlanth
initiation is in `normal' clans.  (Ditto Yelmalio, if not moreso.)

> From the information I have seen it appears that almost a full 
> third of the popuation follows the Sun god of the hills, whoever that is

That's a lot: you're including the Alda-churi to arrive at this number?
Even so I confess to skepticism: from what basis do you get this?

> Now (RQ:AiG) it seems a number of lay members can make up for an 
> initiate, and that intensity of worship can make up for numbers.

That makes some sorta sense, though my opinion would be that person without
an `actual' link to the God in question would count for _much_ less.
(Nor do I think you can measure `intensity' purely by the mp tally.)

> A place of worship is held up by constant sacrifice of magic to/in it.

The existing rules base it one the amount of worship on the Holy Days.
(Or is it specificly the High Holy Day?  I forget.)  This seems sensible,
as one wouldn't imagine the sanctity of an area plumetting just because it
hadn't been worshipped in for a week or two.

> Which makes seasonal increase in "temple size" a reasonable thing - if 
> these clanspeople want to sacrifice for special magic, they can do so only 
> once or twice per year.

I would play that temple size as such is fixed, but that there may be more
magic available at Holy Days of whichever sort (in a similar way to rune
magic becoming 'partly reusable' on HHDs).  This may be a case of six and
half a dozen.

> > The association between the two has to be 'close' enough: this fits in with
> > the first requirement, in that there has to be a _role_ for the associate
> > deity in the HHD ritual of the other.  How close a given association is
> > is likely to be a matter of local importance, as much as anything else.

> For which a set of examples would help a lot. I'm not speaking of a list, 
> more of a set of stories.

I suspect it would vary from place to place in any case.  For rules purposes
a `list' would suffice, but more details would obviously be preferable for
background.  I suspect that the major rituals of the Orlanth cult are
covered by the myths in KoS, and it's fairly evident which associates
would take part in each ritual.  Which rituals are the HDs, or HHD, in a
particular temple, is clearly a pertinent question.

For Orlanth, I beleive the most important associates are his Hearth, and
the Lightbringers.  Which group is the more so will vary, I think: the
Hearth in Esrolia and Heortland, apparently, and I suspect in Sartar,
the Lightbringers.

> > Maybe an associate cultist doesn't count as a 'whole' initiate for these
> > purposes, but as some fraction: perhaps the fudge factor could be related
> > to `degree' of association.

> Which is quite what I had in mind with low initiates.

Okay, this is more reasonable than Boris appeared to be suggesting, to my
mind (assuming he meant that a Low Initiate was `worth' an Initiate of the
God in a ceremony).  I would suggest that if one isn't Initiated to any of
the deities represented, one's contribution is necessarily less than that of
any associate, reflecting the lack of a clear role for that individual.

A further worry I have about the suggestions for Low Initiation is that
it sounds (potentially) like too much of a free lunch, from the point of
view of the people reaping the rune magic rewards: I would suggest that
if someone going to spread himself thinly between several deities, on
the strength of a single POW sacrifice, tithe, and time requirement, then
they'll be worth proportionately (at best) less to each of them, magically
and otherwise.  Rounding up a herd of villagers into the temple and having
them sack lots of MPs sounds great on the face of it, but if they don't
have a fairly high commitment to the cult in question, their contribution
will be that much less valuble.

> The 7M cult is the (civilized, degenerate - choose after your preferance) 
> institutionalisation of all associate praxis. Like a lot of Lunar praxis, 
> it is bending/adapting the rules.

I agree, which is why I think the 7M cult isn't a model which should be
followed overmuch elsewhere.

> >> most orlanthi *do not*
> >> go to cities to worship.  Most *do not* go to tribal gatherings to worship,
> >> or do so only rarely.  Most orlanthi stay at home and worship at their clan
> >> altars and shrines

> > I agree, but don't see that I rule change is needed for this.

> Then your local smith will be cut off his divine magic. (Smiths were 
> rarely allowed to travel, once they had settled somewhere, for fear they 
> might not return.)

Are you quoting Terran or Gloranthan practice here?  I think having to travel
to Holy Day celebrations is a documented occurence in G.  If there's only
one smith in a locality, and no other Gustbran (or whomever) initiates, then
contriving to have a local shrine made up almost entirely of Low Initiates
would be a rather horrible hack.  Many smiths are Third Eye Blue cultists,
of course, sidestepping this argument.  (Or confusing it.)

> > Learning magic isn't an everyday event: most would be prepared to make a
> > short journey to do so, or wait until the High Holy day, when gathering
> > at the tribal temple would be expected anyway.

> This wouldn't work. There is a limited number of priests with Spellteaching, 
> and their capacity would remain unused throughout the time in between.

Knowing spellteaching isn't a `capacity' which one is obliged to use
continually for optimum efficiency, since you'd end up spending huge
amounts of time praying for renewal.  In any case, any temple will have
a `local' population of initiates to service as well as visitors from
elsewhere.  One could also argue that learning magic (rune or spirit)
should be 'easier' at holy days ceremonies in some way (perhaps being
quicker).

> > This sounds as if it would make temples more common, and larger, than
> > published information suggests.  Is this what you intend, or just a side
> > effect?

> It is the same direction RQ4 goes.

I meant `more so than published Gloranthan information', not `more than RQ3',
which I personally agree is overrestrictive.  (Though I also think Sazdorf
is seriously topheavy with rune-levels, by _anyone's_ temple size rules...)

Alex, keeper of the RQ3 flame??

(PS, is Pendragon4 worth the £16 for the 40 new pages, of magic rules?)

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From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Eastern sorcery & NameQuest
Message-ID: <9403141526.AA25600@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 14 Mar 94 17:26:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3309

Nils Weinander writing.

Eastern sorcery
---------------

Using runes to describe eastern sorcery is not to everyones liking.
I can appreciate that, it's a matter of how you see the runes. I
prefer to see the runes as expressions of the basic structure of
Glorantha, ie like natural laws. That might be rather unorthodox,
but I won't dwell on the subject. If we ignore the rune part, what
about the other half of my idea? (To recapitulate, the 'mystic mode'
magic is based on an intuitive combination of forces, tailored to
the occasion and the effect wanted, and brought to reality by use of
a focus skill, like poetry or calligraphy). I think this conveys a
more 'mystic' feel as opposed to the normal sorcery rules' formulaic
principles. Comments? suggestions?

I also like Loren Miller's suggestion of eastern magic as 'extensions'
of skills. I will try to merge the two ideas.

I don't quite agree with Loren that Kralorela is that much different
when it comes to divine worship though. It has been stated that the
Kralorelans worship Godunya as a civic duty, and other 'normal'
deities for the benefits of divine worship.

Anyway I prefer to speak about eastern sorcery rather than Kralorelan
since there is more than one eastern land. My primary interest is the
East Isles, which have divine worship and sorcery according to GoG.
Since both the East Isles, Kralorela, Vormain etc are peopled by
Kralori men, whom I see as descendants of the inhabitants of the
original Vithelan continent, I like to think there is some common
ground, like the magic principles.

Speaking of such things I join Greg Fried in supplicating Sandy for
information on Vormainian colour magic. (Or anything at all about
the Gloranthan far east).

NameQuest
---------

Some not-so-imaginative additions to 'What's in a name':

Dayzatar - day star

The Dykene citadel in Balazar - Mycenae, even the origin is similar: the
Balazaring are built by giants and the walls of greek bronze-age citadels
are called cyclopic because they in a later age were believed to have
been built by the cyclopes.

/Nils W

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From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: did anyone see my Teelo Norri writeup
Message-ID: <9403141751.AA23040@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 14 Mar 94 07:51:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3311


Due to an overzealous quota-enforcing program, I had to delete my Teelo Norri
cult writeup from my account.  I had thought that I had a copy on my
micro at home, but I was wrong.

Does anyone out there have a copy of my writeup?

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From: burt@ptltd.com (Burton Choinski)
Subject: Stuff for Auction
Message-ID: <9403141840.AA01130@tonto.ptltd.com.page>
Date: 14 Mar 94 18:40:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3312

Someone I know has asked me to test the waters on the sale of some RQ2 stuff.

   Specifically, "Pavis" boxed set, "Big Rubble" boxed set, RQ2 rulebook.

I have no idea how long I may have access to it, he is checking some other
contacts as well.  email bids to burt@tonto.ptltd.com. I'll try to update
all bidders as best as possible as higher bid come in.  Please be patient --
I am sans auto-reply list or any such nice stuff. :)
        -- Burton

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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Re: Agimori
Message-ID: <940314190931_100270.337_BHL41-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 14 Mar 94 19:09:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3313

Greg Fried asked me:

> BTW, do you think it is simply an accident the 'men and a half' are
> children of Lodril the phallus god, from the land of the proud Pamalt
> rune? Or, an _unconscious_ accident, but a _subconscious_ intention?

The latter, I am sure. Most of the fun of being a Gloranthan Grey Sage is 
inventing those plausible connections that weren't there before and do no 
damage and maybe a little bit of good to the world. (Which is, of course, 
the definition of Arkati creative HeroQuesting).

> I guess I would hate to think of ye olde beloved Glorantha creators
> _deliberately_ cooking up an array of symbolism like that.

And, if deliberate, it would be _far_ less fun to expose...

====
Nick
====