Bell Digest v940316p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 16 Mar 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: argrath@aol.com
Subject: Race; Heortlings; TEB; ToRM
Message-ID: <9403150800.tn26047@aol.com>
Date: 15 Mar 94 13:00:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3319

Greg Fried writes, apropos of racial consciousness in RPGing:
>So what about it: are RPGs an engine of Revolution or Reaction,
> or just (a)pathetic Recreation?!
Nice pun.  I think the question answers itself.  Some fantasies
are like Tolkien, overtly racist.  Glorantha is more of a
1960's/1970's sensibility, with equality of dignity built in,
even if not equality of power or technology (by which Americans
commonly measure moral worth).

joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) writes:
>Heortlings. Presumably from Heortland, and untainted by Hendriki
>Malkioni practises.
Heortlings are the children of Heort, as the name implies. 
Somewhat vaguely opposed to the Vingkotlings, or maybe the
Vingkotlings are a subgroup, or maybe the Heortlings are a
subgroup.  Anyway, Heortland is the homeland of Heortlings, in
the same sense, frex, that Kosovo is the homeland of all Serbs,
but most of them don't live there.  Anyway, the settlers of
Sartar may not have purged all the Malkionism from their religion
as much as they thought.  Maybe the Aldachuri have a more pure
Orlanthi cultus...?

>I think the Third Eye Blue family in Apple Lane is very exotic,
> and ironsmiths will normally be tied to the cults which provide
> "Enchant Iron".
Frankly, Apple Lane is a myth in my Glorantha.  Spurious. 
Apocryphal.  (Uh oh, now Issaries is going to Confound me for
Criticizing Apple Lane.)  Third Eye Blue families are the least
of it--check out the RQ2-style salamander in the two-sided
fireplace.  Shoot, Sartarites in my world think you're living
high on the hog if you can get most of the smoke to go out the
smokehole in the roof!

>If TEB smiths were comon, they'd be likely to traditionally be
> indented to their place of work and living, simply because of
> their Western Origin which tends to make peasant-class
> inhabitants stay where the are. TEB spread over Peloria through
> Carmania, and these feudal lords will have done their best to
> land-bind them either by grants of land or sheer enforcement.
Well, as someone who has tried to write a TEB cult, I appoint
myself authority on their cultural patterns.  What you say is how
feudal lords would think, but a feudal lord withOUT a TEB smith
would lure one away from his cousin's fiefdom down the road. 
Thus, TEB smiths would tend to become the original bourgeoisie,
accumulating wealth and (therefore) status.  Carmanian sumptuary
laws probably began due to these guys.

I said,
>Tales of the Reaching Moon published a Gagarth cult some time
>back.  

Just to clarify, this is the same as Sandy Petersen uploaded to
the Daily.  

And you guys discussing ToRM #11--CUT IT OUT!  I think Mike
Dawson and David Gadbois are the only people in North America
with copies, and it's not fair to discuss it till the rest of us
get our copies.  :-(

---------------------

From: G.KERSHAW@elsevier.co.uk
Subject: Tolat cult
Message-ID: <_NW-SMF:20B9852D0146D620*_@MHS>
Date: 15 Mar 94 13:31:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3320

Help!

I have recently rolled up an Amazon from Trowjang who I want to
play as an initiate of Tolat.  Unfortunately the only information
I have is that given in the Glorantha pack (ie that the cult is
like a combination of Humakt and Uleria, plus some cultural
background).  Can anybody shed some light on the worship of this
god?  (BTW we play RQ2).

(Duchess Erengazor of Sentanos)

---------------------

From: burt@ptltd.com (Burton Choinski)
Subject: Updated aution info.
Message-ID: <9403151825.AA01703@tonto.ptltd.com.page>
Date: 15 Mar 94 18:25:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3321

I got the stuff from my contact and looked it over to give you a rundown on
what exactly is there.

This message is going out in the next Daily RQ digest, and is being sent
to all bidders prior to tommorrow's mailing.

Terms:
   MINT: "Jeeze, I can't believe the condition!" 
      like new.
   EXEL: "Wow, that's in great shape!" 
      some creases or marks, but about as good as you can get for something 
      that has been used.
   GOOD: "It's in pretty good shape."
      more marks then above, in actual marks or many page tears.  But still
      in good shape and very usable.
   FAIR: "Not bad."
      A bit beat up in many ways, but still holding together.
   POOR: "Hmmm."
      Starting to fall apart.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   
   RQ2 Rulebook -- Good

      Cover and pages slightly yellowed, binding starting to fail between 
      pages 12 and 13, but otherwise in very good shape.


   Big Rubble   
      Box 		-- Good
      Map 		-- Mint
      Episodes Book 	-- Mint
      Guide Book	-- Mint
      Bribery Sheet	-- Exel

    It appears to be missing the players guide (assuming I am reading the
    back of the box correctly.  Box contains 4 pages torn from some source,
    which may well be the missing book.

   
   Pavis
      Box		-- Good
      City Guide	-- Mint
      Episodes Book	-- Mint
      Insert		-- Exel
      River of Cradels  -- Exel		(map)
      New Pavis		-- Exel		(map)

    Looking at the "what is in this box" I see no common knowledge book.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's the lot.  Those who have bid, feel free to revise your bid. :)
    -- Burton

---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 15 Mar 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <9403151841.AA15895@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 15 Mar 94 18:41:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3322



  Paul Reilly here.  First part of this post prompted by discussion on the
RQ4 mailing list.
  On Divine Intervention:

  Let's go back to actual mythology for  a minute.  I think the Greek 
myths are familiar to the most people, so I will use them as an example.
First, check out the Illiad and the Odyssey: lots of DI, people snatched
from battle, etc. - seems to support the RQ 2 DI, useful for escaping,
etc.

  Now an example that is a little more obscure but perhaps more Illuminating.
Sisyphus (a smooth operator) is the guy who winds up in the Underworld
pushing a rock up a hill; many people know him from this image (which may
be repeated in Dante's Inferno.)  MOre on him another time.  Today, let's
look at his brother Athamas.   He has two sons, Phrixus and Leucon, and
a daughter, Helle.  Athamas has a wife, Nephele, created by Hera  (Mrs. Zeus)
from clouds (in another myth) but he gets tired of her smarmy ways 
(presumably due to being created directly by a major deity) and goes
for another woman, Ino, by whom he has two kids.  Hera
gets angry at Athamas and lays a curse on him and his House, including
the kids of Athamas and Nephele, on whose behalf she was getting angry.

  OK, the curse works itself out like this:  
When the crops fail, messengers are sent to get word on what to do from the
invariably accurate but often obscure Oracle of Delphi.  Ino wants her own
kids to inherit, so she trumps up a false oracular pronouncement
 (by bribing the messengers who go to Delphi) that the famine is due to
the supposed incest of Phrixus (Athamas' son) with his aunt.  Still with
me?  The famine, according to Ino's false oracle, can only be stopped
by the sacrifice of Phrixus as a sin-offering.

  Everyone's convinced, so Phrixus gets dragged off to the mountain to
die.  Heracles happens along and says "My father Zeus abhors human
sacrifice!"  They're prepared to go through with it anyway, but
Hermes is ordered by either Zeus or Hera (stories differ) to send
help.  Hermes sends a flying winged talking golden ram down to rescue Phrixus.
The would-be sacrificers are dumbfounded, and Phrixus climbs on board.
His sister Helle is there, and asks him to take her with him.
Phrixus pulls her on board and they fly off.  However, she gets tired 
and falls off while they are over the straits dividing Europe and Asia,
now called the Hellespont in her honor.  The ram flies Phrixus to
Colchis (on the Black Sea) and he promptly sacrifices his rescuer in
Zeus' honor (some thanks, huh?) and its fleece stays there, prompting the
expedition of the Argo some time later.

  The point is: Gods can send other gods on missions of Divine Intervention,
and it can take strange forms.  Glorantha may be different due to the
Great Compromise.

  I'd go with the Gods can pretty much do whatever to rescue a worshipper
(flying Golden Rams included) but if the DI is to be at all offensive,
has to stick within his department as dictated by the Compromise.

  Note Helle gets offed, I'd say she actually made the POW sacrifice to
save her brother and happened to roll exactly her own POW.  Oops.

  Story from Grave's The Greek Myths.

-----------------------

  Alex writes:

> I agree.  Worship ceremonies are a bit of a mystery to anyone but Greg at
					      ^^^^^^^

  Is this a conscious play on words?

>A worship ceremony takes the form of the reenactment of a particular myth:
>in effect, is a minor heroquest.  Each participant initiate takes the part
>of one of the gods involved, usually according to the cult or particular
>sub cult they belong to, or at least as close as is possible.  How heavily

  Agree.

  I like to use India as a model for central Genertela, and this is one
reason why: Indian ceremonies are much like this, with temple dramas, and
with festivals where people have religious/traditional parts to act out.
We are lucky to have a Hindu temple in Pittsburgh that is very kind about
letting outsiders attend.

  The principle of Identification is very important in Glorantha; I will
probably post something about this from Finula (which I sent to a magazine
and am waiting for a reply on).  Rune Lords take this to the extreme,
they _become_ their god.  (Priests mediate between the people and the god,
Rune Lords embody the god in a display of sympathetic magic.  More primitive
cults will have Rune Lords only in many cases, or rune lords and Shaman
priests who mediate between people and the spirits, including Gods. )

>, a cultist could easily be a member (or even priestess)
>of three or four earth cults in her lifetime, which is somewhat extravagent
>on the POW side under the RQ3 rules. 

  I have played for many years under the assumption that Vorias turn
into Ernaldans (or switch to Voria's other Side, Babeester Gor) who
become Asrelians (or switch to Maran Gor).  Asrelians may switch to
Ty Kora Tek.  Babeesteri may mature into Maran Gori, thence to Ty Kora Teki.
Don't know if anyone ever switch back from Chthonic to Earth; it's rare.
The switch to the 'dark' side is often induced by trauma.  Rune magic
already bought may mature or switch; if no equivalent it may become
1-use or remain as an Associate spell if that is part of the local cult
structure.  Flowers, for example, can mature into Bless Crops; this can change
into Blast Earth.

>I wonder about troublesome cases like Barntar and Voriof too, I admit:

>My votes for Voriof spells: Find Sheep (1pt spirit), Cry Wolf (1pt rune).

  I have a Voriof writeup sitting around partially done.  It of course
included Find Sheep.  Voriof the Youth bears the same relation to Orlanth 
that Voria the Youth bears to Ernalda.  Voriof also offers Call Sheep, a
rune magic exactly analogous to Call Followers, and which can "mature"
into it, if you are lucky enough to be in Orlanth Rex.  Young princes
are set to watch the sheep, and thus learn to be good providers and
protectors (and how to shear their followers, some say).  Cf.  Tristan,
one of the three great Pig-Keepers of Britain.

  Barntar is a bit troublesome.  He is as much or more Ernalda's son as
Orlanth's.  I have developed his cult a little but have no formal writeup;
should do at some point.  One thing we know is that adult Orlanthi can
'switch' to his cult, so it's not a developmental stage like Voriof
(unless they are regressing)



   ----

  I do like some of Nils Weinander's Eastern suggestions.  I can accept
Runes as Basic (The Spike was in the center, after all) or not as you please.
The skill based suggestions are good; we run Kralorelan stuff a bit like 
this but systemless.  On the other hand, we don't entirely restrict
such things to Kralorela; True Art (rare) is _magical_ in itself; the
artist puts a piece of his soul into it, but with no formal enchantment
process.  This is the basic process from which Enchantment was derived;
it is a formalized skill based on enhancing and controlling the natural
creative process that artists go through.  Enchantment can be painful
and unnatural, though. (I suppose Art can also...)

>East Isles, which have divine worship and sorcery according to GoG.

  I have less objection to East Isles magic being described as "sorcery"
but feel that as Vithelan offshoots they may practice mysticism.  Unsure.


  Nick Brooke has been writing about the phallus god, and Greg Fried asks:
>> rune? Or, an _unconscious_ accident, but a _subconscious_ intention?
...
>> _deliberately_ cooking up an array of symbolism like that.

 >And, if deliberate, it would be _far_ less fun to expose...


  So the question arises:  Why is it that finds exposing the Phallus symbol
in Gloranthan myth?  Is this deliberate or does he just have a subconscious
urge to expose the Phallus whenever possible?  :-)

- Paul

---------------------

From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink)
Subject: the Jrusteli
Message-ID: <199403152046.AA12947@panix.com>
Date: 15 Mar 94 10:46:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3323


ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) writes in part:

>BTW, I think people are dumping too much on the God Learners. They did do
>some terrible things, but they also did good things (e.g. Tradetalk is
>handy both for us gamers and for Gloranthans, as are many of their
>classifications). But they're wiped out, and probably nearly forgotten. I
>doubt most Gloranthans know anything about them.
  
  Actually, almost everyone in Glorantha remembers the God Learners with 
terrible fear.  I don't say that they know many facts about them, but 
almost everyone recalls them as destroyers and desecrators.  See, among
other sources, the Genertela box.

        --Carl

---------------------

From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: A Lunar proposal
Message-ID: <9403152136.AA09628@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 15 Mar 94 11:36:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3324



The question was raised on the RQIV playtest mailing list as to why, with all
their solar elements, the Lunars are all so cyclical.  I present the following
hypothesis:

To submit to the Lunar Way is to, in a way, learn a new magical language.
Now, languages do not all have the same features.  For example, English is
a language with very little inflection, but word order is vital.  Other
languages can be more fast and loose with word order because they use
extensive inflection.

English has also dropped grammatic gender, something that other languages 
still cling to.

So, using this analogy, to enter the Lunar Way is to learn to "speak to the
world" with a "Lunar Tongue".  One of the features of this tongue is its
cyclic nature OUTSIDE OF THE GLOWLINE.  But within the Glowline, BOOM!

---------------------

From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Thanks for the restoration.
Message-ID: <9403152141.AA09696@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 15 Mar 94 11:41:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3325


I got several copies of my Teelo Norri writeup, thanks.  (In fact, I got
so many copies that I jumped over quota--but I caught it before the Terminator
auto-clamped my account this time.)

---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: initiates
Message-ID: <199403152200.AA02687@radiomail.net>
Date: 15 Mar 94 22:00:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3326

Alex said
>"Individuals among the Orlanthi are defined by their age, [...], initiatory
>status [...]."
>This suggests that 'age' (non-adult, adult, etc) are not necesssarily
>coincident with 'initiatory status' (non-initiate, initiate, etc).
>Thus it would be possible to have an adult non-initiate.  (Or a non-adult
>Initiate??)

I don't think so. "Initiatory status" means intiate, godi, priest, etc.

I'm currently playing a character who's not an initiate of a religion. He's
hoping to become initiated soon, so he can be considered an adult (and get
girls). This is probably a bit loose, for gaming purposes (he'd probably
have to go back to his clan along with a priest of whatever religion he
picks to truly be initiated), but I think you can't be an Orlanthi adult
without being a religous initiate (or similarly pledged to a Kolating).

"More important than simply being initiated,w hich everyone does, is the
particular deity to which a person is initiated." To me this implies that
all initiates are initiated to a particular deity (or multi-deity cult like
7 Mothers), not to a pantheon. There are no generic initiates.

>(PS, is Pendragon4 worth the #16 for the 40 new pages, of magic rules?)

Those are about the only changes from the combination of Pendragon3 and
Knights Adventerous, but it's a very interesting magic system. It's not
strictly appropriate for Glorantha, but the idea that time and place matter
when casting spells is taking root in my games. A simple RQ3 version would
be to increase the chance of casting spirit magic to POW*6% if you're in
your home hearth.

Those magic pages will also help your understanding of Pagan Shore, a new
supplement which is definitely worth it. It seems that much of Orlanthi
culture is derived from the Irish Celts (with many differences, I hasten to
add).


---------------------