From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 22 Mar 1994, part 3
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: Races, from a biological and anthropological perspective
Message-ID: <9403211839.AA16080@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 21 Mar 94 08:39:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3364
Okay, just a few definitions to permit people to start thinking of things;
When a biologist speaks of "race" these days, it does not have the same meaning
that it does in common speech.
When an anthropologist speaks of "race" these days, it has a meaning closer
to modern usage, except that no self-respecting modern anthropologist would
use the term "race" nor tolerate its use by others.
First, an elaboration of the biological use:
"Race", in the biological sense, refers to a distinctive breeding population
within a species. This population can be distinguished by gross phenotypic
traits (as opposed to only being distinguishable via DNA markers). It is
nearly INVARIABLY tied with geographic location, and is considered to be
mostly a marker of convenience to permit biologist who SPECIALIZE in a
particular are to track specific groups within a species. Now, the precise
boundaries of "race" are widely variant. What one biologist would
characterize as two different races, another would consider to be a single
"race". What complicates this is that "race" is not of universal usage, and
many younger biologists prefer terms like "geographic variety", "local
variation", or other, more precise terms. I believe that the only place where
"race" is used much at all anymore is the study of fungi.
Now, applying the biological usage of "race", I could make an excellent case
for the existence of at least five "races" withink the confines of Europe,
NOT counting those who have ancestors from Asia, Africa, or the Pacific.
In other words, all of these "races" would be of the "white race".
Now, the anthropological use:
"Race" is not often used in anthropology today. It is considered to be
an inaccurate, badly-defined, and all-around useles term. Those who
seriously use the term "race" are accorded somewhat less respect than given
a random dog turd. The terms used instead are "society", ethnotype, language
group, ancestry, etc. These terms do not have only a few categories, and
they are not mutually congruent. This is to say that a single group
according to ancestry and language could be split into two or more groups
by society. Witness Croatia: I bet nobody in the West even knows that the
"Muslims" are ethnically every bit as "Serbian" as any "Serb" or ethnically
as "Croatian" as any "Croat". However, there are extremely important
differences in cultures that are a result of history. Another way of
looking at it is to look at England. Ethnically, many Northumbrians have
much more in common with Norwegians than they do with Wessexmen, but
culturally, they have more in common with the Wessexmen than with the
Norwegians.
Thus, the entire concept of "race" can be demonstrated to be pretty much
silly.
But where does this leave us with fantasy games, specifically RuneQuest?
It's very simple: Trolls are NOT a different "race" from Humans, they are
a different SPECIES!!!
---------------------
From: LAIDLAW@draco.rutgers.edu
Subject: RQ 3 cacodemon writeup?
Message-ID: <01HA8L5ZSB1K9QUQZP@draco.rutgers.edu>
Date: 21 Mar 94 11:15:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3365
Does anyone know if there has been an RQ 3 writeup of cacodemon?
A friend of mine asked were he could find one. I have gone through all
the RQ 3 stuff I have, I felt sure I had seen one but all I found was an
old RQ 2 writeup. I could have sworn that I had seen on for RQ3 but may
have been mistaken. Also there was an old cult index listing cults and
where there full writups were for RQ2, does anyone know of/have such a
beast for RQ3?
Angus Laidlaw
laidlaw@draco.rutgers.edu
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: re: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <9403212102.AA07601@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 21 Mar 94 09:02:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3366
Edward Ott asks:
>in griffin mountain there is an enlightened chimp named scree. does
>any one know where he comes from are there more of them.
In Glorantha, every species of animal has at least one sentient
member. Most have many more. The enlightened chimp probably came from
Fethlon or Trowjang. I know that gorillas and other great apes have
been used in various campaigns, and this implies to me that they live
somewhere in Genertela.
It's not clear to me yet whether great apes are native to
Fethlon, or whether they were imported there from Pamaltela. (I don't
even know whether there are chimpanzees in Pamaltela.)
Harald Smith asks:
>One issue that came to my attention after running a scenario
>recently was the extent of literacy in Glorantha.
I generally assume that primitives and nomads are illiterate, and
that only "educated" barbarians can read .. i.e., wise men, nobles.
Among civilized urban types, I assume literacy would be common among
anyone wealthy or at least middle-class: healers, scribes, magicians.
In my current campaign, not one PC can read. They're all
ygglings, though (except for the snow troll). There's talk of adding
a sorcerer to the mix, and he'll no doubt be able to read.
In my former campaign, lasting six years, I think at any one
time I only had one literate PC (again, usually a sorcerer).
>Sandy, what about literacy in Pamaltela?
I think in Umathela, it follows the Genertelan pattern. In
Fonrit, slave-holders or at least their accountants are literate. The
folks along the coasts of Elamle & Onlaks are urban and doubtless
have some literate folks.
I don't think there's any real literacy among the Doraddi.
Ancient lore is kept track of by the old folk who live at the oases,
who keep passing it on from generation to generation. No doubt during
the Six-Legged Empire, a written form of the Doraddi language was
introduced, but I wouldn't expect it to be used in modern Jolar,
Tarien, or Kothar.
I don't know if the Veldang in Zamokil are literate. I
suspect that if they are, it is a secret.
Gerald Bosch sez:
>I believe the only meaningful biological definition of race
>concerns the ability of two organisms to successfully reproduce (am
>I wrong? I'm a historian, not a biologist).
You're wrong. "Race" indicates a hereditary variation within a
species so small that it does not even qualify for the "subspecies"
label. The various nonhuman types in Glorantha are, of course, not
races, but species. Variation within those types are often even
species variation. For instance, the physical difference between a
green elf and a brown elf (different species) is much greater than
the difference between a Doraddi and a Kralori human.
>How real is the influence of biology in determining the differences
>in racial behavior in Glorantha? If a Troll child were raised by
>human parents, how "Trollish" would his behavior be?
Because the non-humans in Glorantha represent mythic
realities as much as physical differences, I have always assumed that
their "racial" differences are largely inherent. No doubt a troll
raised by humans would behave differently than a troll raised by
trolls, but that doesn't mean she'd act like a human!
In my own campaign, I always treat the humans as highly
variable and adaptable, and the Elder Races as much more uniform,
symbolic of their strong elemental ties. When my players encountered
Jungle Trolls in Pamaltela, they soon learned that these skinny
spear-wielding creatures, in the end, behaved very similarly to good
ol' dark trolls. They were still most concerned with food, their
racial curse (not trollkin in their case, but still cursed), crude
social matriarchy, worship of Kyger Litor and other monstrous dark
gods, etc.
One way I explain to my players how to roleplay or understand
the various Elder Races is: Trolls = the Id. Dwarfs = The Ego. Elves
= The Superego. While this isn't exactly a perfect description,
players and GMs running such characters in accordance with that
description are more often right than wrong, in my experience.
>In my game, the phenotypical differences between humans are
>accorded much less weight than observed cultural behavior. A
>Kralorelan who dresses, acts, and talks like a Theyalan would be
>considered a funny-looking Theyalan by most Theyalans.
In my game, too. I think Carl Fink misunderstood what you were saying
here, though, since he said there might be places that were more
"tolerant". I believe that you were putting emphasis on the "is
considered THEYALAN", not the "funny-looking". Right?
I play that racial prejudice vs. humans is generally replaced
by racial fear or suspicion of nonhumans (generally justified).
Though physical characteristics can still be noticed by the locals,
they are of no more significance than hair or eye color.
When our PCs traveled extensively in Pamaltela, eventually
all the players began running Doraddi characters, with one exception.
The exception, a Wareran sorcerer (run by Jeff Okamoto), was
nicknamed "Skin Like A Grub" by another player, and it stuck. It
wasn't racial prejudice, not really, just reference to an unusual
physical condition.
In My Opinion, the only places in Glorantha where racial
prejudice between human of different races exists are:
1) Teleos, the Pirate Island, where the six(?) different skin
colors all hate one another, but are not prejudiced vs. outsiders.
2) Fonrit, where the races are generally ranked Doraddi
(best), Wareren, Veldang (worst). Fonrit is a Bad Place, though.
Of course, prejudice vs. humans of different TRIBES is a
different matter entirely. (Can't stand those Bison riders!)
Gloranthan Slang overheard
Broo-Biting (incredibly dumb, as in "That was one Broo-biting stunt
you pulled back there.")
Lodril's spear (Sometimes shortened to "Lodril" or "Old Lodril".
Vulgar term for male genitalia.)
Duck and Death-Lord (A mismatch. I guess it could be used to refer to
somebody outmatched in combat, but the actual use in the
campaign was in describing a dish combining catsup and
fish, i.e., "These go together like duck & Death-Lord.")
Mad as a duck (very angry, but impotently so.)
Cold as Kyger Litor's c*** (quite cold. Vulgar)
Faithful as Uleria (i.e., not very)
Friendly as a broo on fire (i.e., not very)
Cold enough for Sunspear (the implication being that the
speaker would even welcome a Sunspear to warm up.)
Brains of a Storm Bull (feeble-minded)
Big as a Storm Bull (brawny)
---------------------
From: gstafford@aol.com
Subject: Town users and Magic
Message-ID: <9403211744.tn200778@aol.com>
Date: 21 Mar 94 22:44:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3367
The latest RQ Daily has the article wherein Joel B. asks how magic users in
Hendreikiland towns would be. He askes, would they have combined systems?
I have always thought that there were "combined systems" of magic in
Glorantha. But jthese are particular. In general, the magic system used
reflects the initiate's commitment to/conviction of a world view, AND a
concurrent awakening of the right sort of Consciousness to interact with that
type of magic.
In other words, a commitment is made, and a CHOICE is made. It is AS IF (but
not exactly like) a prospective initiate had a choice of shaping a developing
spiritual organ into either a fetch, ally, or familiar. This is NOT A
PARALLEL ANALOGY, but given as an indicator of the choice's magnitude.
Rare individuals might have more than one spiritual organ, but this would be
EXTREMELEY RARE.
I think that Joel's NPC/father figure would have EXACTLY this wort of problem
in Glorantha, and that the answers to it should be played on in the game. He
could asume he is right, and get whatever consequences come later; he might
ask his own priest, back home, for guidance. He might not even think it is a
problem, really.
- g
---------------------
From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink)
Subject: source material
Message-ID: <199403220051.AA07188@panix.com>
Date: 21 Mar 94 14:51:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3368
mmlab!cookec%max.mml.mmc.com@uunet.UU.NET (Kiliki) writes:
R>I want to express concern over the availabliity of source material.
R>I just got off the phone with AH and they claim there is NO definate relase
>date for _CoT_. How can so many of you quote from an unprinted
>source? How can I get in on it?...
Many of us have the original Chaosium edition, published over ten
years ago. You can still occasionally find copies for sale at
conventions.
R>To top it off, RQ Cities & Griffin Island are now out of print as well(or at
>least none in stock at AH) and NO plans as of this morning to reprint.
They're not source material, and they aren't Glorantha. "RQ Cities"
was just the old "cities" book with a big "RQ" slapped on it.
R>My problem is - How can I piece together a full blown campaign? I have been
>GM about a year now, we already have one spinoff. It really looks like my
>people have a growing interest in RQ material. BUT I am faced with lack of
>info at every turn. Even quoting ToTRM doesn't help, I can't get it! I have
>tried to contact David Gadbois, he hasn't responded and since I won't blindly
>send money in amounts undetermined, what are my other choices?
David Gadbois reads this list, I suspect you'll hear from him real
soon now. There are plans to support _RuneQuest: Adventure in
Glorantha_ (aka "RuneQuest IV") quite heavily, including supplements on
the Lunars, Orlanthi, and Praxians, if you can wait a bit.
R>I have bought all that I can get my hands on in print to weave the fabric of
>Glorantha and bring it to life for my players. So far it has been wonderful
>fun but now I am running into walls. What about, where can I get
>more on Sartar? The Rubble? who are the GreyDog Clan or Lismelder?
>Pavis is reasonably well documented but where can I get more on the
>Rubble? Is Nochet really Sanctuary?
You should look into _King of Sartar_, a rules-free book about Argrath
and Sartar. It's available at any good games store, or directly from
Chaosium.
In today's Daily, I accidentally wrote:
R> I don't necessarily agree. There are cosmopolitan areas of Glorantha
>in which all the races can be seen (Fronela, Pavis), and people there
>might be a bit more tolerant.
I meant that *Fonrit* is cosmopolitan and has representatives of all
the races, not Fronela. Whoops.
--Carl
---------------------
From: bruceab@teleport.com (Bruce Baugh)
Subject: Race in Glorantha
Message-ID:
Date: 22 Mar 94 02:49:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3369
>Still I'll repeat that I think it is something to check in on
>ourselves about -- what kind of RL issues are we unreflectively
>displacing into our gaming worlds?
>-- Greg Fried
I'm most always uncomfortable with the use of "we" in situations like this,
because I'm seldom one of the people the poster has in mind and because I
prefer to associate myself only with the groups _I_ choose. That said, I
personally bring a variety of real-life issues into gaming quite consciously
and deliberately, using the unreal environment to emphasize distinctions and
interactions that seem interesting to me.
Glorantha in particular provides, I think, a nifty environment for use as a
lab to examine the impact of beliefs that I do not think the world I live in
supports. At the same time, of course, it's first and foremost a Neat Place
in its own right.
---------------------
From: mmlab!cookec%max.mml.mmc.com@uunet.UU.NET (Chris Cooke)
Subject: RQIII Thieve's World
Message-ID: <9403220321.AA07218@uucp4.UU.NET>
Date: 21 Mar 94 18:51:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3370
I just purchased _Thieve's World_ but it appears that it is RQ2 not RQ3.
Does anyone know where I can get updated information or eratta? Other
then minor details like Tempus only having 95% sword(surrrre he does:-)
It appears to have interesting possibilities. Where on Glorantha would
a city like this fit? Nochet? Elsewhere? Any ideas on how to get my
players from Sartar/Prax to it?
--
/> Chris Cooke
//
(//////[O]>=========================================-
\\
\> cookec@mml.mmc.com
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: RuneQuest Adventures
Message-ID: <9403220322.AA23526@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 21 Mar 94 17:22:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3371
Does RuneQuest Adventures have an email address? If so, what is it?
---------------------