From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 29 Mar 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Plentonius Message-ID: <940328195024_100270.337_BHL91-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 28 Mar 94 19:50:25 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3432 Mark S. wrote: > I might quibble with with ["Nick's"] description of Plentonius as an > "arch-conservative". I see him acting more creatively, he's trying to > put together a sort of mythic ideology for the Khordavu dynasty. Absolutely! I didn't call Plentonius an arch-conservative: I applied that name to those contemporary Dara Happans who take him as gospel. Plentonius was a revolutionary religious thinker and a creative literary artist of the highest order. > Also - don't tease us Nick - which Gods Wall identifications do you > think are incorrect? I can't go on about this -- I'm the Man Who Knows Too Much. But try Yelm, Murharzarm and Arraz for starters. Just my opinions, nothing official. ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: more GRoY Message-ID:Date: 28 Mar 94 20:07:16 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3433 Minor suns Elmal appears as king of the Vingkotlings during the Greater Darkness, as could have been expected. What is interesting is that the only incident the Dara Happans deign to remember is that Shargash fought a victory in repelling Vingkotling raiders during their reigns. Interesting WRT Yelmalio, since there are rumours that his is a composite cult of one priestly cult of the Cold Sun and one of the Solar Warrior, the latter possibly Shargash. Shargash is the most intriguing of the "new" Solar deities - a warrior called "the Thunderer". Almost like Orlanth adopted into the sky pantheon. He is almost as rebellious as the Rebel gods, yet remains the Lord of Alkoth. He cooperates with foreign forces like Kargzant. But he is blamed to have destroyed the world (taking Plentonius' rather short-sighted perception into account, probaby Peloria, maybe only the Oslir River valley), almost like Zorak Zoran. His "Rune", a circle inscribed with the flanks of an "A", doesn't tell too much about his traits. Kargzant is almost as enigmatic. Plentonius makes him the Solar ruler who reigned before the Dawn. He says that Kargzant summoned his peoples to fight "monster gods which had escaped the Underworld" led by a certain giant named Oralanatus, armed with an iron sword. He was chained and bridled by the giant. This is quite strange, because the tribe already called itself Hyalorings, i.e. Hippoi had already been broken and chained by the Sun people. Plentonius puts it that way that the Hyaloring monopoly on horse riding was lost. But then, other sources (e.g. MOB's Garhound Contest) say that Orlanthi style riding didn't involve saddles or bridles, let alone bits. (BTW, noone ever mentioned which beasts Mastakos used to draw Orlanth's chariot. Water horses he brought from his former home?) Now a bit of comparative God Learning: Plentonius' text and the Grazer pantheon. The Grazer deities could have been polluted by their long interaction (as Golden Horse People) with the EWF Theyalans and the Praxians, and later Ironhoof's Ritual of Rebirth, but on the other hand the tribe that came to Prax was the most conservative of all. So let's look at the Grazers' gods list (KoS p.108f) and look for similarities. Most glaring, of course, are Yu-kargzant and Kargzant. David Dunham wrote an excellent Yu-kargzant write-up, which says a lot. The sons of Yu-kargzant and those of Yelm don't relate too well in name, only in function, and that only with problems: Josad - Buserian Jardan (Golden Bow) - Shargash Dastal and Henird are too alien to sedentary life to relate well. Arandayla is the Grazer name for the Horse Goddess, Plentonius mentions Hippoi as Horse Goddess of the Hyalorings. Hyalor is said to be the King of the Horse People at the Dawning; Plentonius already talks of his dynasty, and has Jenarong's descendant Vuranostrum as Dawn Emperor (although dethroned by the returning Lightbringers?). He associates the Horse Riders with the lost people of Nivorah, which separated from Dara Happa in the reign of Manalarvus, and calls them Hyalorings. Since he seems to have lived in the second century ST, this mght be a backwards association, but from the description of Nivorah's secession, it seems that the Horse-Breaking falls into the Storm Age, not the Greater Darkness. However, the Grazer myth is likely to be even less exact than Plentonius' outsider observations. What do the Solar Pentans say? Orest might be connected with Oria (GW III-5), and Tara, Lady of the Wild, might be related to Thilla (GW III-12). Tamar seems to be a generic "Father of Beasts", possibly an adaption of GL/EWF-inspired Hykim, alien to Dara Happa. Polestar poses no problem at all. Of the Enemies, Enkreva has certain similarities with Annilha, and Wingkoalad sounds like a mixture of Vingkot and Kolat, and Vingkotlings take part in Plentonius' description. Unnek the Buzzard sounds similar to the (western) legend of Vulture, as related in the Golden Book of Sun County. And now another thing my prehistorian self likes to speculate on: Early Pre-Theyalan (how does one call tribal nations which formed the later hill barbarians which were the primary targets of Theyalan missionaries) migrations. The first hill tribe recorded by Plentonius' sources were the Ram People, sheep herding hill barbarians. A God Learner (like me) might classify them as follows (and the species discussion shows what good classifications do): Ram Hsunchen, who extended their worship to the clouds' god Heler, and later were included in the Orlanthi kingdom of Hill Barbarians, see the myths how Orlanth freed Heler, and how Barntar led him home to Orlanth's stead (presumably in Kerofinela). Other sources speak of the Cat People of Dragon Pass (Telmor write-up in Dorastor - Land of Doom), ex-Hsunchen whose ties to the Orlanth pantheon were formed via Yinkin. The cattle people could have been Urox' Hsunchen followers, their inclusion into Orlanth's kingdom seems logical. Swine are mentioned in KoS in the myth about Orlanth the Justice-Bringer. But pigs and cattle are mentioned as Dara Happan beasts as well, although among the Finger Goddesses, apparently deities which were erased from Gods Wall. Why? Because the Orlanthi stole them? Back to my animal relation theory of Orlanthi partial nations: Kolat - (what husbandry do Wind Children sport?) Urox/Barntar Cattle, Oxen Vadrus/Ragnaglar Goats (guess based on the standard broo appearance) Humakt - Orlanth/Yinkin Cats Voriof/Heler Sheep Elmal/Hyalor Horses Ernalda Pigs These deities might well have been worshipped by people classified as Hsunchen, although maybe not as extreme as the Telmori in their interbreeding habits. (There are bad rumours about lonely shepherds, though...) This brings me quite off the thread and to a remark dropped in the species debate about Telmori-wolf interbreeding. How are the other Hsunchen in this regard? Do Pralori, Damali, Rathori, (extinct?) Galanini, Basmoli interbreed with their totem animals? Do Sofali turtle people mate with turtles? If so, do their women lay eggs? Enough for now. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: pmichaels@aol.com Subject: Constructivist Glorantha Message-ID: <9403281507.tn193708@aol.com> Date: 28 Mar 94 20:07:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3434 Martin (argrath@aol.com) says: >My personal opinion is that Greg Stafford is consciously making >Glorantha a constructivist universe, where reality depends entirely or >almost entirely on the viewer, and it is unknown and possibly >unknowable whether there is an underlying God's-Eye Truth. I' m curious. What makes you think it's a conscious decision? Martin also says: >I think a subjectivist universe is much more interesting. I agree. Having one (or even several) ultimate knowable T ruth(s) is just too modern for me, even if the GM is the only one who knows 'em. That's why I don't run/play an AD&D universe, or Tekumel for that matter. Peace, Peter --------------------- From: argrath@aol.com Subject: Not another addictive drug!? Message-ID: <9403282044.tn205081@aol.com> Date: 29 Mar 94 01:44:14 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3435 Guy Robinson has a bit in his otherwise fine write-up of North Prax about Sallow Root, an addictive substance which aids oratory and has shaken the foundations of Arkat's Dark Empire. (ADE died out centuries ago in most of our worlds, but that's OK.) This, with the hazia of Sun County and subsequent releases, makes two addictive magical drugs in Glorantha. IMHO, this is two too many for a fantasy RPG world. Actually, it's not the drugs themselves that I object to (although an argument could be made there), but the fact that they are outlawed and persecuted much as drugs are in the 20th century West. I'd like to know of just one historic parallel, just one drug that was outlawed anywhere in the world before the Opium Wars. And don't tell me that the witches of Europe had a drug that the Church outlawed--that's just speculation, and in any case never a drug in common use. Drug laws are as much a part of 19th and 20th century Western civilization as the secret ballot or the six-gun. Any world that has any of those things is mixing genres. Just Say No. --Martin --------------------- From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink) Subject: obscure philosophical points that will probably bore you Message-ID: <199403290305.AA19191@panix.com> Date: 28 Mar 94 17:05:32 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3436 argrath@aol.com (Mike Dawson) writes in part: > My personal opinion is that Greg Stafford is consciously >making Glorantha a constructivist universe, where reality depends >entirely or almost entirely on the viewer, and it is unknown and >possibly unknowable whether there is an underlying God's-Eye >Truth. This is not the case in Mike Dawson's Glorantha, however. >Mike wants a universe that has a single Truth knowable by the GM. >I think a subjectivist universe is much more interesting. I agree completely. Carl Fink's Glorantha has a single Truth which can be discovered by the GM, and by its inhabitants. Greg may be a fan of Bishop Berkely, I am not. Looking at the Gods Wall, some of the descriptions really don't make a lot of sense -- once Nick said it, it became clear to me that Plentonius was making it up as he went along. For instance, the Tortured Victims, who may not be worshipped, include two portions of Yelm. Thinking about dismembered Yelm -- with his interests Greg has almost certainly read some Jung. Could the Red Goddess be a Yelm's anima, which was not reintegrated by the Compromise? After all, in the Egyptian myth of the returned god, Isis couldn't find one piece, right? --Carl --------------------- From: pmichaels@aol.com Subject: More on Postmodern Glorantha Message-ID: <9403282254.tn209545@aol.com> Date: 29 Mar 94 03:54:44 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3437 Greeting all! I'm back, with a bit longer post this time. Again, I will note that Martin (argrath@aol.com) says: >My personal opinion is that Greg Stafford is consciously making Glorantha a >constructivist universe, where reality depends entirely or almost entirely on the >viewer, and it is unknown and possibly unknowable whether there is an underlying >God's-Eye Truth. Martin, I know I asked you in an earlier post what makes you think that Greg was making a conscious decision. Now, I'm g oing to say some about what I think about this before you get a chance to respond because I've been pondering about it all this evening and want to get it down before I forget it all. (*whew*) Hope you don't mind. I'm don't believe it's a conscious decision on Greg's part. Myth h as it's own form, it's own logic. The myths of postmodernism are strong ones, permeating our Western culture more and more, without most people even recognizing it. As Anderson points out in _Realit y Isn't What It Used To Be_, living in a postmodern world exposes people to both modern and postmodern mythology. Greg, from what little I know of him personally, is someone who chose to immerse himself in premodern myth since childhood. California, especially during the time Greg has lived there, is probably one of the more postmodern places in the US in which to live. Fantasy role playing games are a par ticularly postmodern hobby. Greg's discovery of Joseph Campbell doubtless moved him even fu rther into postmodern territory, whether he's aware of it or not. I would imagine that Greg's exposure to this multitude of worldviews has provided him with a personal experience of the dilemmas o f the postmodern world. (An experience most people probably have now-a-days.) Greg's becoming a shaman is evidence of the way he has dealt with those dilemmas, and the considerable transformation his worldview has undergone. (I would find it fascinating to chat with Greg about how his early exploration of Glorantha impacted upon his becoming a shaman, and how this in turn changed his later explorations of G lorantha. I also wonder how many others in the RQ Tribe feel their "real world" beliefs have been impacted by Glorantha. I know mine certainly have. My thinking about Heroquesting is part of what led me to postmodern social constructionism, which in turn continues to have a tremendous impact on both my personal life and my work as a family therapist.) Anyway, I'm a little off subject. Sorry. I completely agree with you that Glorantha is a place that, viewed from here, is constructivist. If it were not, Heroquesting would not have the ability to change large scale perceptions (and therefore reality) on the Gloranthan mundane plane. The Heroplane would be more like the Outer Planes of AD&D. (This also helps to explain Greg's getting away from SuperRQ as the chosen vehicl e for HeroQuesting.) The fact that support from one's society is important in Heroquesting points d irectly to the _social_ construction of reality in Glorantha. I don't believe this is conscious on Greg's part, it's just how it developed. I believe it's part of the overall structure of human mythology. Of human experience and belief systems, really. It's part of what Greg was refer ring to at the RQ-Con 1 HeroQuest Seminar when he said, "I will tell you that this stuff about mimicking the mythology isn't something I made up. This is the way Earth mythology works. All right? It is. You can look at modern religions. You can look at science. Any belief system works in much the same way." It's part of the stuff Joseph Campbell talks about. Let me be clear. I do NOT believe that Gloranthan cultures have a postmodern view. I think all Gloranthan cultures definitely have a premodern view of the world. Except for the Godlearners, who I think had a modern view and were experimenting to discover the Ultimate Truth of all things. Well, maybe Illumination includes some degree of postmodern thinking (I think Arkat was probably the closest thing to a Gloranthan postmodern thinker), but I think that the jump from a premodern to a postmodern understanding, combined with the extra magical impact of such a shift on Glorantha, is too much for the vast majority of Gloranthans, and their minds and souls snap under the strain. .....well, the above is an interesting tale to consider, neh? ; -) It's one I'm still thinking about and puzzling through, and I probably forgot part o f it anyway. But, I'd love to hear what meaning others make of my ramblings about Glorantha and pos tmodern thought. As my 2 & 1/2 year old son says, "Please, say to me a story from out of your m outh." Tell me about your Glorantha. Peace, Peter --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Yanastan River Laugher's Guide to Esrolia Message-ID: <199403290625.AA01051@radiomail.net> Date: 29 Mar 94 06:25:18 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3438 Since the Building Wall was constructed to halt the Lunar advance in 1605, it's been a lot harder to raid Esrolia, damn the Pharaoh. The Wall has some holes you could dismount and lead a horse through, but they're not suitable for returning to the Grazelands, partly because they're hard to find. Arkat's Hold commands the gap between the Wall and the Skyreach Mountains, but that gap is nearly 7 km, and it's possible to evade their patrols, especially if they don't know you're coming. Be warned they use digijelm guards at night. Another option is to use Azmikor's Pass, but the mountains are uninhabited and are still home to many spirits. Small towns along the Lysos River offer the easiest pickings, although of course there's less to loot. Running downriver as far as I've gone, they're named Chorn, Blinth, Oblen, and Altosh. I've heard that the Pharaoh, damn him, will sometimes billet troops in one of these towns, so you could be in for a nasty surprise. The typical town is square in shape and surrounded by earthwork berms about two metres high. There's a single opening which is barred at night, but any horse except those from the Silkmane clan's herds can easily jump it. You could just as easily ride over the berm. When you enter the town uninvited, be prepared to be attacked by ghosts, which Dinalish Mighty Leap suspects are those of people buried in the earthworks. Military defenses can vary. Every town has a militia, some of whom are on watch at any time. Their slingers use Oralant's Thunder, which can stun a man and leave him helpless. A Spellguard will sometimes prevent this. Most of the militia fights with swords, although they occasionally use spears. They tend to have little grasp of tactics, but can sometimes overwhelm a raiding party with numbers. The town itself is laid out in the haphazard style preferred by the vendref. If possible, learn the streets ahead of time or you'll get lost in the heat of the raid. The towns I've named all have open squares which are filled with stalls on market day. The largest building is where the headwoman lives, and will probably have the best plunder. There is always a temple to the vendref goddess Ernalda, which can also have good plunder, but the Feathered Horse Queen has asked we not desecrate earth temples. There are often shrines to Ernalda's husbands, either Oralant or Yelmalio. Unfortunately, you can't expect to return with many horses, since these people don't have many, and don't know how to take care of them. You can find plenty of cows or sheep to slaughter. The people wear gold, silver, or seashell jewelry, and you can find coins. If you're lucky, you can find wine in portable containers, or else you'll have to drink it out of the barrel. They have much fine dyed cloth and embroidery, and down-stuffed bedding. Many of the kitchens contain large quantities of spice. There arebottles and sculptures made of glass, and furs, and ivory carvings. Some of their weapons and armor is of fine craftsmanship. And of course you can take the people themselves, though this can be more trouble than it's worth. You can raid most of the farmsteads outside the towns without breaking a sweat, but this will often alert their neighbors, and there's seldom enough to bother with. I don't know a whole lot about New Crystal City, but Taradarin Ten Day Run led a raid there, and came back with a poppywood runestaff he ransomed back for fifty red horses with golden bridles. Since they're only vendref, you don't need to worry about pursuit, but they do use signal fires to warn the garrison at Arkat's Hold. Try to avoid them, since they've been known to capture fully laden pack horses with Hobble spells. David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation Voice/Fax: 206 783 7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net "I say we should listen to the customers and give them what they want." "What they want is better products for free." --Scott Adams ---------------------