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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 07 Apr 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: Initiation, Tribal or o/w.
Message-ID: <9404060825.AA23127@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 6 Apr 94 08:25:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3526
A final (?) belated (!) shot in the Initiation firefight...
David "Autofire Find Weakness" Dunham () said:
> Alex asked me
> >I take it means you think initiation into tribe and religion is done as a
> >_single_ ritual, then, not merely that both are required for Adulthood?
> Or at least two rituals virtually back-to-back (depending on holy days). It
> just seems that you're not an adult until you're a religious initiate. I
> haven't worked out all the ramifications (e.g. the Lhankor Mhy apprentice).
I'm certainly not inclined to get zealous about this issue; rather I think
the published information is so vague as to admit no definitive conclusion
either way. Perhaps it needs to be Gregged.
The only clear reference I find is in the RQ Magic Book, of all places,
which states that "it is a traditional sign of adulthood", which is
still some way short of an absolute requirement.
I note that the annotations to Argrath's Saga say there are "several
initiations to qualify as adults" (annot. 10). This leaves open the
question of whether cult initiation is one of these steps, and if so,
whether it precedes or succeeds the tribal/clan initiation.
Certainly, however, it seems clear being an Adult Non-Initiate would
not be a common, and much less an approved of, state, even if it is
possible.
But note that if you're a 15 year old, trying to join a religion
other than that of your parents', your chances aren't great. A back-of-an-
envelope calculation for a boringly-average Sartarite of this age trying
to pass the Orlanth skill test, one of the easier due to high(ish) skill
bases, suggests he has about a 10% of success. What happens if he fails?
Does he get bounced out of the clan, have to wait until the next lot of
clan initiations, and try the whole thing again, or simply wait a year,
and retry joining the cult (or even try joining another in the meantime)?
It seems more likely to me that certain `traditional' clans would require
initiation to a _particular_ deity (most obviously, Orlanth or Ernalda,
according to chosen path), while in more `modern' clans it would be (at
least theoretically) optional. The requirement `be initiated to a diety,
any deity' seems a little artificial to me, given the differing importance
of different deities, and the differing meanings of initiation into them.
(Presumably initiation into Voria or Voriof `doesn't count', at least.)
One thought that occurs is that particular bloodlines might have this
requirement, for their particular `family' god. This would make some
sense if initiation were into one's own bloodline primarily, and only
secondarily into clan or tribe. This is a bit rough on people not
wanting to follow the family tradition, mind you.
On the subject of bloodlines: someone stated that tribal kings had to belong
to particular royal bloodlines; anyone have a reference to this in published
material? (I found one declaring this to be the case at the Kingdom level,
but not that I could see otherwise.)
> BTW, I'd consider it sad if Griffin Island is let go out of print.
It could be rereprinted as G, Mountain, right? I'm sure nobody much would
mind it being `deblanked'.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: Initiation, tribal or o/w.
Message-ID: <9404052125.AA21992@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 5 Apr 94 21:25:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3527
A final (?) belated (!) shot in the Initiation firefight...
David "Autofire Find Weakness" Dunham () said:
> Alex asked me
> >I take it means you think initiation into tribe and religion is done as a
> >_single_ ritual, then, not merely that both are required for Adulthood?
> Or at least two rituals virtually back-to-back (depending on holy days). It
> just seems that you're not an adult until you're a religious initiate. I
> haven't worked out all the ramifications (e.g. the Lhankor Mhy apprentice).
I'm certainly not inclined to get zealous about this issue; rather I think
the published information is so vague as to admit no definitive conclusion
either way. Perhaps it needs to be Gregged.
The only clear reference I find is in the RQ Magic Book, of all places,
which states that "it is a traditional sign of adulthood", which is
still some way short of an absolute requirement.
I note that the annotations to Argrath's Saga say there are "several
initiations to qualify as adults" (annot. 10). This leaves open the
question of whether cult initiation is one of these steps, and if so,
whether it precedes or succeeds the tribal/clan initiation.
Certainly, however, it seems clear being an Adult Non-Initiate would
not be a common, and much less an approved of, state, even if it is
possible.
But note that if you're a 15 year old, trying to join a religion
other than that of your parents', your chances aren't great. A back-of-an-
envelope calculation for a boringly-average Sartarite of this age trying
to pass the Orlanth skill test, one of the easier due to high(ish) skill
bases, suggests he has about a 10% of success. What happens if he fails?
Does he get bounced out of the clan, have to wait until the next lot of
clan initiations, and try the whole thing again, or simply wait a year,
and retry joining the cult (or even try joining another in the meantime)?
It seems more likely to me that certain `traditional' clans would require
initiation to a _particular_ deity (most obviously, Orlanth or Ernalda,
according to chosen path), while in more `modern' clans it would be (at
least theoretically) optional. The requirement `be initiated to a diety,
any deity' seems a little artificial to me, given the differing importance
of different deities, and the differing meanings of initiation into them.
(Presumably initiation into Voria or Voriof `doesn't count', at least.)
One thought that occurs is that particular bloodlines might have this
requirement, for their particular `family' god. This would make some
sense if initiation were into one's own bloodline primarily, and only
secondarily into clan or tribe. This is a bit rough on people not
wanting to follow the family tradition, mind you.
On the subject of bloodlines: someone stated that tribal kings had to belong
to particular royal bloodlines; anyone have a reference to this in published
material? (I found one declaring this to be the case at the Kingdom level,
but not that I could see otherwise.)
> BTW, I'd consider it sad if Griffin Island is let go out of print.
It could be rereprinted as G, Mountain, right? I'm sure nobody much would
mind it being `deblanked'.
Alex.
---------------------
From: merig@dsi.unimi.it (Giorgio Merigo , Jorge)
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE ME PLEASE!
Message-ID: <9404060851.AA01428@pluto.sm.dsi.unimi.it>
Date: 6 Apr 94 11:51:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3528
Hello
After more than a year and a lot of very interesting articles,
I am finding out I can read 1 every 10 I receive, so please now I would like
if someone "powerful" enough would UNSUBSCRIBE ME from this mailing list
I have gotten the address at soda.berkley so I will keep in contact.
Thanks
Giorgio
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
JJJJJ !
J ! Giorgio Merigo (Jorge)
J ooo r rr ggggg eeee ! Corso Campi 3
J o o rr g g e e ! 26100 Cremona
J o o r ggggg eeeeee ! 0372-413988
J J o o r g e !
JJJ ooo r gggg eeee ! merig@ghost.sm.dsi.unimi.it
!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
loves Role P.Games (RuneQuest,C.of Cthulhu, etc.) & Classical Music
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: Sub-cults?
Message-ID: <9404061028.AA23430@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 6 Apr 94 10:28:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3529
Martin:
>As for Urox, I believe his emergence as a separate cult is a second
>or third age development.
This is sustainable (perhaps) in Orlanthi lands, but not, one has to
presume, in Prax and the Wastes.
> The same with Humakt. Before that, they
> were just what we would call subcults of Orlanth.
Sandy:
> My failure to concur with this is unfortunately un-backed up
> by any evidence for the Bull. However, I submit that the tales of
> Arkat and his betrayal provide strong evidence for Humakt being a
> separate cult even at the dawn.
Why? The Orlanthi regard themselves as being collectively betrayed by
Arkat getting Uzzed, not just the Humakti.
> Plus Humakt's own mythology, which
> places great weight on being separate from Orlanth.
Could be merely mythic protestation, of course.
I have no idea what the historical truth of this argument might be
(does anyone?): but I'm inclined to note that this argument is ridden
somewhat by the (in my view) false dichotomy of `sub-cult' vs `entirely
separate cult'. There are likely, I should think, to be degrees and
shades of distinction between the two, especially before the God Learners
got at the cult structures, and turned them into RQ2 cults^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H
artificially regular structures. In fact, much the same as I was
blathering about associate cults, earlier.
Alex Ferguson.
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Dragonewt Weapons and Male Broos
Message-ID: <9404061125.AA12832@Sun.COM>
Date: 6 Apr 94 11:14:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3530
Hi All
Jussi? asked about Dragonewt weapons.
They are listed on page 25 of the Glorantha Book (5) of Deluxe RQ3 Set.
What do you mean you did not waste your money buying it?
Base chance for humans using any dragonewt weapon is 05%.
Samarin and Chokin are small throwing weapons that do about the
same damage as a dart but have far less APs (2). My guess is that
they are made of wood (or possibly bone) and flint rather than metal.
Remember that a war dart has a very heavy metal tip, and is sometimes
made of solid metal. Multiple Samarin and Chokin can be thrown at
the same time, in the smae manner and with the same penalties as for
shuriken (=shaken). Minus 10% from all chances for each extra one.
The great broo debate.
I believe that ALL broo are born male. It has been stated in a number
of places that broo are like their fathers andhave no sisters.
I also remember reading that they are patrigenic?
However (as always) there are a very few female broo.
They are NOT BORN as female broo.
I can think of two ways in which they are created.
1) A female human (or other) becomes a broo due to taking too many
chaotic features, or Thanatar heads etc.
2) Or more rarely a male broo plays around with that Dark Elf stuff
that changes your sex.
Female broo are quite a fun concept as they are very sought after
by male broo as any offspring will be TRUE BROO!
Of course broo births are very often fatal for the mother so that
female broo try to avoid male broo at all costs. Unfortunately,
due to their unnatural fertility if a female broo survives a broo
birth she will still be fertile unlike most *normal* host mothers.
Also female broo have the same inflated sex drive as their male
counter-parts which they need to relieve, however if they mate
with any other creature they will gice birth to broo...
Thus, female broo (who intend to survive very long) must either
have access to very powerful healing on a regular basis or they
must relieve themselves but being very careful not to use any
thing that might impregnate they. After Sandy's Stove Broo this
becomes quite a problem and I would suggest that CLEAN fingers
the only form of SAFE SEX for a female broo. The whole thing is
mind-boggling and rather distasteful (no doubt this article will
raise objections from other readers, I apologize for the subject
matter). Still I suppose that any article on broos is likely to
be rather sordid.
Anyway the above shows why female broos are virtually never
encountered and why other sources are obvious wrong when they
quote broo as 85% (an Orlanthi All) male. These other sexes
do exist but rare sightings have been blown out of all proportion.
-----
Lewis
-----
---------------------
From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069)
Subject: What do you call a gathering of broos?
Message-ID: <01HAUKTF86J49GVG16@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 6 Apr 94 06:56:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3531
An Infection of Broos.
---------------------
From: jpolk@opus.starlab.csc.com (James Polk)
Subject: Games
Message-ID: <9404061843.AA02121@opus.starlab.csc.com>
Date: 6 Apr 94 18:43:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3532
Games:
Reading the comments of Rodereick Robertson, David Dunham, and Sandy
Peterson, I gather (pun intended) my comments on the amount of time
some societyies have available for games are inaccurate. I am willing
to concede this point (pending further research on my part).
In reply to Roderick Robertson on his comments to Harald Smith:
I have heard that lacrosse was played by the Iroquois (native americans)
between villages. But many native american groups did not have similar games,
and I haven't heard of whole villages (tribes) of Bedouins doing so either.
Can others on the RQ Daily scene provide more examples of village (group)
versus village games? If not, then I suggest that two examples are
insufficient evidence on which to refute Harald Smith's contention.
In reply to Eric Robert Jablow:
Even if chess exists in Glorantha - and I contend it does not (see my next
message on games) - how would Gloranthans possibly know about "Ruy Lopez" or
"Scicilian Defense", since neither the player nor the place exist in
Glorantha?
In reply to Sandy Peterson on his comments to Harald Smith:
Where are the "large cities" of the Wastes? Of the Elder Wilds?
Tug-o-war in a village seems reasonable, but tug-o-war is rather different
than games such as baseball. Also, how about a Gloranthan name for
tug-o-war?
On a -much- lighter note, I can add one title to the Gloranthan Movie game:
Gone With the Wind Lord
This movie asks the question, "Can a Lunar (SCARLETT O'Hara) find happiness
with an Orlanthi (roving) cad?"
- James
---------------------
From: jpolk@opus.starlab.csc.com (James Polk)
Subject: Games II
Message-ID: <9404061843.AA02136@opus.starlab.csc.com>
Date: 6 Apr 94 18:43:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3533
Gloranthan Games For People who Insist that Human Blood Doesn't Contain
Iron and then Talk About Gloranthan Baseball: :-)
There are a number of games which use balls, but they can be quite different
from each other. Basketball, soccer (football), kickball, tennis, and
dodgeball all use a spherical object. But their differences show me that
one can start with a common object and end up with vastly different games.
So why should Gloranthan games be just like (or incredibly similar to)
Earth games? Why not "discover" (create) new ones? They can certainly
share a number of attributes without being the same game.
As an example, I present to you the game of Empire. This game, popular
in the Lunar Empire, uses a board divided into 49 squares which
are coloured Red, White and Yellow (see the diagram below). The pieces
used are the Goddess, the Emperor, the Magician, the Priest, the General,
and two Soldiers. It is a two-player game, and each player begins with a
full set of pieces. The object of the game is to capture any six of the
nine Imperial (red) squares.
Board Layout:
R - W - Y - R - Y - W - R
W - Y - W - Y - W - Y - W
Y - W - Y - W - Y - W - Y
R - Y - W - R - W - Y - R
Y - W - Y - W - Y - W - Y
W - Y - W - Y - W - Y - W
R - W - Y - R - Y - W - R
This game is related to a Dara Happan game (of the same name), which
uses a circular board, divided into five rings of twenty yellow and
white "squares", etc.
My point it that I think we do ourselves a disservice if we say Empire
is merely a variant of an Earth game. Gloranthans will never have heard of
our strategy game, and so a reference to it would be like saying to us,
"Cricket is just like boogle, only the shape of the ball and the number of
players are different." We understand the words of the sentense, but don't
get a proper picture of how to play boogle. So, if you like using Gloranthan
slang, Gloranthan dieties, Gloranthan geography, etc, then use Gloranthan
games and Gloranthan game names. Don't talk about soccer, hockey, caber
tossing, lacrosse, jacks, or checkers. Create (and then talk about) Shield
Push, Empire, Troll Ball, and Barrel Hop (whatever that is), etc.
- James
---------------------
From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
Subject: recognize this severed head?
Message-ID: <9404061957.AA01564@Sun.COM>
Date: 6 Apr 94 19:53:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3534
I was looking over my copy of Shadows on the Borderland the other day,
admiring the back cover art featuring a Thanatar priest, when I noticed
that one of the priest's severed heads was wearing glasses.
The only reason I can think of for that is that the head is
intended to be a likeness of someone. I asked Mike Dawson, who denied
having noticed it before and couldn't think of who it would be.
I suspect this is one of Uncle Ken's shenanigans.
Anyone recognize this head, or have an alternate explanation?
---------------------
From: ANDERSJC@howdy.Princeton.EDU
Subject: Hybrids, put-downs, chess, etc.
Message-ID: <12961BC7A74@howdy.princeton.edu>
Date: 6 Apr 94 21:53:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3535
This is being posted for Paul Anderson, on Janet Anderson's account:
On Hybrids
The point on "the human species" is well taken, but I don't think Glorantha
has Linnaean species at all. Another hybrid is Gwalynkus the Good, who reigned
in Dorastor c. 150. (D p.6) He is mostly descended from Theyalan humans, but
his mother's father is a dwarf, and his father was descended in the female line
from a dryad.
Now I realize that this may be regarded as exceptional, for several
reasons, but I still think it is valid. Gwalynkus reigned in Dorastor, where
anything is rather more likely than not to happen, but he is explicitly dated
between the God's Age and the Second Council, to say nothing of Gbaji, so his
reign is precisely when Dorastor was most normal and everyday. I also admit
that this is in _Dorastor_, not the most carefully proofread book ever
produced; but Gwalynkus is the major new figure in the history, and was
presumably more often checked than the monsters.
The description of Gwalynkus does include a lot of "it was said"s, and is
probably intended to read like a later myth of a happy reign. But it should be
valid data about Gloranthan possibilities, even if only retroactively true.
________
On Wexten
It seems clear that many of the Ralian realms are smaller than shown on the
political map (e.g. Sentanos). I think Wexten is slightly inland, south of Lake
Felster; probably part of the land claimed by Tiskos.
________
A "barrel of Broo"? ("several broo", like "several elephant".)
If not, a "plague of broo" is probably best.
________
Putdowns:
"He's in bed with the/his Seven Mothers." I leave improvements on this to
your imagination.
"He's not in our clan anymore; he's a Dead Head [Humakti]"
Bystander: "He's intelligent, for a Storm Bull."
Irrippi Ontor priest: "A sentient Storm Bull is an oxymoron."
Lhankor Mhy pr.: "Worse than that: an ur-oxymoron."
[with help (?) from Dennis Hoover]
________
On Chess:
Hi, Eric!
Eric Jablow suggests that chess be run analogously to combat, with attack
and parry being Chess skill, and 'damage' of D3. This is a nice idea, and more
widely applicable. He further suggests that 'blows' be simultaneous, to allow
for draws. Either White should strike first each 'round', or (preferably) get
an initial strike without reply to preserve his advantage.
IMHO human cultures should differ more than playing different openings in
the same game; their forms of chess should differ as much among themselves as
Indian from Persian from Chinese from Modern. If this be granted, where did
Modern chess, with its characteristic pieces, arise?
In chess as we know it, a king is an indispensible token of the army, and
he is defended by a female Hero, mobile fortifications, cavalry, and organized
priests. He also has a numerous but weak infantry. This sounds more like the
Lunar armies than any other. (The Esrolians would not surrender upon death of
the KIng. The Grazelanders (although possible) don't have enough infantry to be
pawns. The Sartarites fight on foot.) Trolls are perhaps the second most likely
culture; they are female-dominated, and have riding specialists. It this is
true, chess would have had to be invented and spread to Orlanthi long ago for
Sartarites to now find it acceptable.
This leads to the following conjecture: In or just after the time of the
Conquering Daughter, the Empire adapted chess to its tactical problems, which
at that time were largely trollish. The Lunars are, in practice, associated
with the Light Rune, and trolls with Darkness; so this antagonism was stressed.
The intended subject may be skirmishes, or may be a small war between Holay and
Dagori Inkarth over the land then being organized as Tarsh. White moves first,
so the war scenario seems more likely.
________
I am reminded that there was an old comment that Solar soldiers use the
Sky Rune as a small unit formation, but Orlanthi use the Storm Rune.
I add that while the Yelmish commander is in the center, the Orlanthi
leader is the outside point - the one who knows the most Healing is in the
center.
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Smelch
Message-ID: <199404070234.AA18911@radiomail.net>
Date: 7 Apr 94 02:34:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3536
Pam Carlson asked
>Does anyone out there have any information on Smelch, other than what's in
>the single paragraph in the Glorantha/Genertela books?
There's also a single paragraph in RQ Companion: "Dormal set off from
Handra late in the year [1580] and the growing bluster of winter forced the
fleet to take refuge in Alatan. The island was ruled by a hard and cruel
man named Jobar. He tried to kill Dormal and seize his ships. Instead, he
was killed and another made king in his place."