From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 09 Apr 1994, part 2
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From: s.manning@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Chess
Message-ID: <9404081353.AA25792@tera>
Date: 8 Apr 94 15:53:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3557
Nick writes:
>This would imply that *another* form of Chess is played in the West, where
>the Carmanians came from, and that this game probably has black and white
>pieces -- but beyond that, I would not like (and do not need) to theorise.
I'll second this. When all this talk about Gloranthan games started, it struck
me that something like chess would probably have been invented by the Old
Malkioni Talari, because: (i) as immortals they would have alot of time on their
hands, so a game that would take a long time to play would probably appeal and
(ii) it teaches them about politics and strategy, with the Talari piece being
the goal and all the other pieces i.e. castes manipulated by them. Given this
then in "Western" chess I would also expect to find "ships <-> Waertagi". Also,
in Hrestoli lands I would expect a variation to be played in which an important
goal would be to advance your "farmers" to "knights" etc.
Finally, I cannot resist adding that old Pringle played chess and isn't
Issaries connected to the GodLearners (Ok, so it's extremely tenuous).
Simon Manning
---------------------
From: argrath@aol.com
Subject: Cults; Strangers
Message-ID: <9404081311.tn550886@aol.com>
Date: 8 Apr 94 17:11:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3559
I said:
>>As for Urox, I believe his emergence as a separate cult is a second
>>or third age development.
Alex Ferguson says:
>This is sustainable (perhaps) in Orlanthi lands, but not, one has to
>presume, in Prax and the Wastes.
Except that there were NO cults in Prax until the Pure Horse people came
there. Remember, the PHP were successful because they had true divine magic.
Sure, Urox was a part of the mythology of Prax, but there was no cult, just
shamanism.
There are lots of these mythological figures who have no real developed
cult--look at all those figures in the Orlanth write-up in WF. There's a
continuum from obscure figures through guys like Barntar through aspects like
Orlanth Rex to semi-independent cults like Mastakos all the way to really
separate cults. So I guess I agree with Alex.
UPS just delivered my copy of _Strangers in Prax_. Great illustrations by
Stephen Langmead. It has three mini-campaigns, all of which have suitable
recurring characters for a longer campaign of the GM's devising. Barran the
Monster-slayer is a great NPC, and the introduction to sailors' attitudes
whets my appetite for the Oceans supplement coming from Chaosium.
--Martin
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: Initiation.
Message-ID: <9404081819.AA29186@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Apr 94 18:19:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3560
> Alex "Sometimes Mails Twice" Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3526 and 3527
My very own epithet! Joy! ;-) Now, if only I could persuade it into my
mail header...
[Sorry about that, all: that's what I get for `correcting' my mistake of
sending it to RQ-Request in the first instance...]
> > I note that the annotations to Argrath's Saga say there are "several
> > initiations to qualify as adults" (annot. 10). This leaves open the
> > question of whether cult initiation is one of these steps, and if so,
> > whether it precedes or succeeds the tribal/clan initiation.
> I'd interpret this so that at reaching various age groups, the boys
> (and girls) undergo rites of passage
I'd agree this is what it means, broadly, the point being that there isn't
really a single `adulthood initiation', in any strict sense. Once you've
done all the initiations, together or not, you're a Full Adult(TM).
> > Certainly, however, it seems clear being an Adult Non-Initiate would
> > not be a common, and much less an approved of, state, even if it is
> > possible.
> People stressing the (IMHO tenuous) landbound Viking parallel for the
> Orlanthi might use the "Men without Gods" section from RQ Vikings for
> non-initiates
No, I'm not suggesting this. However, I think it would not be unknown
for people to have undergone the `tribal'/`cultural' initiation, a la
Apple Lane, Adulthood Initiation of _KoS_, whatever, without yet having
joined a cult, for the simple reason not everyone due to be thusly initiated
will be able to qualify for their intended cult. Such people would be
Adults and full members of the clan for most purposes, but may not be
allowed to marry, or perhaps not to vote, and will certainly have their
parents telling them to get a Life/Cult at regular intervals.
The other likely alternative is that Adulthood Initiation is postponed in
these cases.
> > But note that if you're a 15 year old, trying to join a religion
> > other than that of your parents', your chances aren't great. A back-of-an-
> > envelope calculation for a boringly-average Sartarite of this age trying
> > to pass the Orlanth skill test, one of the easier due to high(ish) skill
> > bases, suggests he has about a 10% of success.
> In a pure farmers community (i.e. 60% of the populace) the chances to do
> something else than farming, herding or hunting are slim. Things are
> different for warriors serving in foreign lands, e.g. with the tribal king,
> or people living along trade routes.
True. But while most people will simply join their parents' cult, some
won't. What if your parents are Issaries and Ernalda initiates, say,
and you want to join Orlanth. Not unreasonable, but if you are forced to
take clan initiation and cult initiation together, at fifteen or so, you'll
almost certainly flub.
> > What happens if he fails?
> > Does he get bounced out of the clan, have to wait until the next lot of
> > clan initiations, and try the whole thing again, or simply wait a year,
> > and retry joining the cult (or even try joining another in the meantime)?
> Were it Prax, the denied candidate would have to join either the Pol Joni
> or the Gagarthi. In Sartar, she could always stick to one of the minor
> cults, like Geo.
My point is that if failure in trying to join a cult, very likely in some
circumstances, means immediate expulsion for the clan or tribe, this is
a much more serious consequence. Normally with cults you can try again
later, and don't suffer deleterious results in the meantime in any case.
> > (Presumably initiation into Voria or Voriof `doesn't count', at least.)
> That is what the "pantheon initiation" faction means by low initiate state.
I don't think it is: their idea was that Low Initiation would qualify one
for adulthood.
> > One thought that occurs is that particular bloodlines might have this
> > requirement, for their particular `family' god. This would make some
> > sense if initiation were into one's own bloodline primarily, and only
> > secondarily into clan or tribe.
> This is the Ancestor Worship most, if not all, theistic cultures include
> into their theistic worship.
I don't mean Ancestor worship, I mean `hereditary' worship. "I come from
a long line of Lhankor Mhy Sages. You want to become a Sun-Domer? Never
darken my door again, ex-son." One might be excluded from a particular
bloodline without losing membership of the clan, and without being debarred
from (the possibility of) being an Adult. I doubt this is very common,
however.
> Alex again in X-RQ-ID: 3529
> > Martin:
> >>As for Urox, I believe his emergence as a separate cult is a second
> >> or third age development.
> > This is sustainable (perhaps) in Orlanthi lands, but not, one has to
> > presume, in Prax and the Wastes.
> I might agree with Martin in the sense of an independent clerical
> hierarchy (however (c)rude in this case) from one of the bulk of
> associate deities cared for by the Orlanth priesthood. (Another reason
> for pantheon initiation - or are there more than maybe five rune levels
> of Heler in Sartar?)
I've no idea how common Heler worship is in Sartar, but I'd certainly but
prepared to believe most of his worshippers (adiitionally|primarily) owe
allegience to other Gods. Perhaps his senior wotshippers tend to be
Acolytes of Orlanth/Priests of Heler, or vice-versa. (Effectively
`associate priests', to use a vaguely-defined RQ2ism.) He might actually
be thought of as being a sub-cult, at least in places.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Gloranthan chess.
Message-ID: <9404082138.AA29423@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Apr 94 21:38:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3561
David Cheng:
> Charles Morehouse (the guy who ran his MoLaD game at RQ-Con) has a
> pretty good idea for Gloranthan Chess.
> Each pantheon is represented by a set of pieces. Each set has
> different movement rules associated with it.
This is a cute idea, but I'm dubious of the likelyhood of finding sets
of rules which are mythicly plausible, remotely `balanced', and not
hopelessly over-elaborate. ("The Empress's Weaponsthane may move three
horizontally and two vertically, or between three and five in any orthogonal
direction, unless obstructed. On alternate Wilddays..." )
My (stalled) Lunar fiction had a putative history for Gloranthan chess,
which was more-or-less a reflection of the earthly development, ascribing
to assorted cultures the introduction of particular moves according to
their particular prejudices.
Alex.
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Joerg slays Sandy.
Message-ID: <9404082204.AA29460@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Apr 94 22:04:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3562
[This is a bunch of assorted followups to things Solar, mostly pretty out
of date. Bear with me.]
MOB:
> I wonder if anyone else out
> there can figure out other weird sources of Gloranthan nomenclature....
Do I get any points for Somash :: Shamash, Sumerian god of the Sun?
Paul Anderson:
> Joerg comments:
> >which [story] is the real one? This question might be irrelevant....
> I couldn't agree more. This is one of the things that makes Glorantha feel so
> nearly authentic.
Well, as Adams would say, What do we mean by Real? Do we mean: Which
`actually happened' during Godtime? (Potentially completely meaningless
and indeterminate.) Or: What do Gloranthans believe happened? (Different
people may believe different things.) Or perhaps: If we `visit' the
Godplane now, by HeroQuesting, what do we `find' there? (Need I mention
the God Learners, miscelleanous prior HQing, and multiple versions of myths?)
Sandy:
> Look at Lokarnos -- true, he has the
> Light Rune, but I think that's more a courtesy than anything -- he
> doesn't even have Command Salamander of his own self.
How many Light gods do? None, that I can think of.
> [Me:]
> >I reckon Yelmalio (and this myth in particular [Hill of Gold]) is
> >pretty atypical of Psolar Psychology.
> But not of Yelmalio psychology as influenced (strongly) by the Solar
> philosophies. It's time for me to go on a tirade in defense of the
> Solar worshipers (not necessarily directed at you, Alex).
This thread has of course launched into The Contests of Sandy and Joerg,
and by the time I post this, will doubtless have gotten to the point where
The Arming of Baumgartner is being carried out, to rescue Sandy's severed
net uplink.
As my tuppenceworth towards the Statement of Recognition, I think it's hard
to decide who's the more Just, or Generous, or anything, really, between
the two, given the substantial differences in their value systems, not to
mention how they differ from our own. A Yelmite's idea of Justice is strict
adherence to (and enforcement of) written laws, as well as keeping his
word. Orlanthi believe in keeping one's word, and a much vaguer idea of
`natural justice', and wooly stuff like that. Naturally each thinks the
other is a decadent pit of corruption. Similarly a solar worshipper would
consider getting reasonable share by the Yelm Method to be an illustration
of his leader's generosity, while a storm worshipper would say the whole
basis was inequitable.
Nepotism: doubtless this occurs in both (not to say all) societies. There
may be a difference in how it operates in the two cultures, however: Solar
types are likely to base their biases on what to believe the correct Divine
Order to be, while Stormies are going to be more influenced by Love/Loyalty
to Kin, to generalise hopelessly.
I think that solar cultures tend towards a much stricter adherence towards
strictly lineal heredity of Kingship (or anything, come to that), but at any
rate, both have it. And neither, I think, would particularly take issue
with the other in this respect, or see being led by a populist rabble-rouser
or an omni-competent technocrat, given this doesn't exactly fit with the
Sacral Kingship idea.
But while this debate neatly illustrates why Solar and Storm worshippers
are found shaking each other warmly by the throat so often in Glorantha,
it isn't really what I had in mind. My question was really: what
emotional traits are socially characteristic of Solar and Theyalan peoples?
(Culturally, rather than the particular `desirable cultic traits'.)
Frinst, do we believe Sandy's suggestion that storm worshippers are
collectively dumb-ass idiotically grinning West Coast happy-go-lucky
optimists, while solar types are angst-ridden uptight East Coast Woody
Allen clones, with a consequently pessimistic outlook? I think I paraphrase
fairly.
> Remember that Yelm is a highly benign god -- much more so
> than the unreliable Orlanth. The good Solar king is just as generous
> to his followers as the good barbarian king, and he is a hell of lot
> more fair-minded.
Calling Yelm `benign', because he shines one everyone, worshipper or not
is a bit dubious, too: one might as well say Orlanth was `benign' for not
suffocating everyone. It should also be pointed out that the progress of
the solar orb across the sky has been established as a cosmological fact
by the Compromise, and is probably fairly independant of any actual sun-god
worship. (Whether all Gloranthan sun-worshippers actually worship the same
entity (Yelm by any other name, as it were), is also questionable.)
> >What is the thinking behind which cults give `Rune Lord DI', and
> >which don't?
> In GoG, 'twas pure arbitrariness on the part of Greg and myself, as
> to whether a particular cult "deserved" such an honor. Cults too puny
> or obscure didn't get d10 DI, because we decided that their rune
> lords or priests were just special initiates. If you like, it could
> be that the difference was our gut sense as to whether or not a
> particular deity possessed a Secret Power.
I think the oddest ones (that didn't) to my mind were Storm Bull, and to
a lesser extent Waha. Maybe it's a Prax thing... I also found it
perplexing the Uleria priestesses _do_ get 1D10 DI, especially when High
Healers, also theoretically Rune Lords and having a similar cult structure,
don't.
> >Humakt "Distrust Other Species" geas
> He still has these, though they were dropped from GoG's listing.
And the `full' writeup in TotRM, I think. What Gifts go with these?
(The phrase Thingybanesword is sneaking into my mind...)
> >> Most retirees from Solar cults don't join Dayzatar. It's a very
> >> rare cult.
> >By why is it rare, if it's so `easy' to join? Granted it appears to
> >be a remarkably masochistic and pointless thing to do, but if it's a
> >surefire passport to Solar Heaven, why aren't the punters joining up
> >in droves? Or is it not this guarantee for the Lesser Lights?
> Gee, I don't know. Why didn't everyone in Medieval Europe become a
> monk once they were over 50 years of age?
In mediaeval Europe, you didn't need to be a monk to get to heaven.
In Dara Happa, you _do_ need to (eventually) be a Dayzatar worshipper
to get to Solar Heaven. (According to the rebirth myth, if I recall
rightly.)
Interesting that Sandy should bring up european monks, who while they didn't
account for huge amounts of the populace, were still on the order of 1%
of the populace, who were mostly monks for life (or at least from adolesence
until death), making them more prevalent than Dayzatar worshippers, at any
rate.
> And no one ever said it was "surefire".
Granted. But if it isn't, it makes the `cycle' a good deal less neat.
Lokarnos -> Dayzatar -> (dies) -> whoah, what am I doing back as a Yelornan
(or whatever)?
> >My understanding was that the Yelmalion practise was
> >_modelled_ on the Dayzatar one, but wasn't actually _it_.
> My own belief was that they were real Dayzatar guys. They came up
> with this trick in Prax because they're NOT isolated from all other
> solar types.
If you take the published history of Sun County seriously, they were,
for a time, _completely_ isolated, from _everyone_.
I'm not so upset as the Paul Reilly's of this world about the Sun County/
Elmal discrepancies, though I'd be interested in hearing anyone's ideas
for squaring the two. Perhaps Sun County was already more Yelm-influenced
than the Dragon Pass Elmal worshippers (though I have no idea why),
but only made the final transition to worshipping `Yelmalio' shortly
after the Mongrogh/Dorasor/Varthanis thing. Whether this satisfactorily
explains the Solinthor thing is questionable, though.
> I think there's been a
> heck of a lot more contact between Gloranthan cultures than they are
> usually given credit for.
I'm not disputing this, I'm talking specifically of Sun County, and
The Solitude of Testing. How does Prax come into contact with Peloria,
except via Dragon Pass, where allegedly the cult of Yelmalio was such
a late development?
Roderick Robertson:
> In discussion with Greg, I brought up the idea that Yelmalio *as a
> name* was a Theyalan invention. Here is Orlanth storming around and
> ending up at the Hill of Gold.
I think I prefer the suggestion that the name (and possibly cult) of Yelmalio
is of Aldryami origin, or alternatively that it was simply coined by
Mongroth when he founded the cult, conflating Elmal and Yelm. The idea
that the name could be of Orlanthi, Godtime origin, doesn't really fit with
the Orlanthi later `inventing' the cult within Time.
Alex.
---------------------
From: HAZEN@sonoma.edu
Subject: RE: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 07 Apr 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <940408152222.21c07468@sonoma.edu>
Date: 8 Apr 94 08:22:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3563
Sorry this is belated, but I was away for a week...
When attacking, my friend always yells, "Your mother was a Trollkin!"
Cheers,
Garth the Banul
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Gloranthan `species'.
Message-ID: <9404082219.AA29473@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Apr 94 22:19:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3564
I see no reason to eagerly apply earthly "laws" on biological taxonomy
and interbreeding to Glorantha (though doubtless the God Learners and other
Western types would lap it up), since frankly they have enough trouble
accounting for earthly phenemona such as litigons and Artic gull subspecies
rings, as has already been kindly pointed out.
(Anyone who things that there's a indisputable basis for taxonomic
hierarchies should look up the half-dozen proposed organisations of
the genera of (big) cats, or wonder why Homo sapiens is in a whole
Family of the order of primates to itself, while exhibiting 98% genetic
similarity to other higher primates (in fact, I'm sure I've heard
serious speculation as to the possibility of human-gorilla crosses)).
An important consideration in Glorantha is that entities can evidently
_change_ species (e.g. KL adoption rites into Uzdom). I'd suggest that
your chances of breeding with something in G. is more to do with your
Runic and Mythic Identity than 'biological' concerns. Frex, I'd bet
a human has a better chance of breeding successfully with an elf than
with a wolf (bet void in case of Telmori), though you could argue aldryami
are in a completely different Kingdom. Possession of the same Form rune
is likely to be a big help. The further apart you are, the more magical
assistance is likely to be necessary for a happy bouncing hybrid to
result. This suggests not a strictly heirarchical notion of similarly, but
some sort of multi-dimensional sliding scale: trolls are somewhat 'related'
to other darkness creatures, but are also `related' to humans via the Man
rune, in a different `direction'.
But watch out for the bumps.
Alex.
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: Annelinde's Travels
Message-ID: <9404090253.AA00655@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 9 Apr 94 02:53:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3565
Paul Reilly here.
If people liked Annelinde's Travels I have another piece (about 3000 words)
about the same characters but from a rather different point of view. This
piece also by Finula McCaul. I thought I'd probe for reaction to the
last one before posting something that long.
---------------------
From: nh0g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nils Hammer)
Subject: Krarshtkids
Message-ID: <8hdXLti00VpZAdEUhW@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 8 Apr 94 20:58:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3566
While I can agree that little gobbets of the stomped-on Krarsht were
the original source of krarshtkids, there is much we could say about them.
An old RQ source listed k-kid size as "7". It was probably a typo leaving
out the #d6 range. I decided that, as bizzare monsters it is appropriate
for them to be different from all other creatures. Now, how do they get to
be size seven without growing? I figure that a great mess of tiny larval
k-kids bundle together and writhe until they have all eaten one another
leaving one adult. The number of larvae should be related to 6.
Paul Reilly, and (I believe Finula McCaul) have expanded on this to include
a Queen of the local hive. There is only one per hive. The Queen alone
reproduces. If it is killed, the hive breaks up into groups that flee and start
hives elsewhere. This is one reason expansion is slow. It requires the killing
of a Queen, not a job for common adventurers. There is also assumed to be
one Empress krarshtkid for each continent. I don't know if there is a grand
krarshtkid for all Glorantha, or if that is the goddess herself.
There has been much other amusing speculation, such as perfect tubular
tunnels serving as wave-guides for communication. Not useful everywhere
of course, that would leave out the colorful cultic communication by
sacrifice.
Nils K. Hammer
nh0g@andrew.cmu.edu