From appel@erzo.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 12 01:49:01 1994 Delivery-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 01:49:02 -0700 Received: (uucp@localhost) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.8/PHILMAIL-1.10) with UUCP id BAA19310 for appel@soda.berkeley.edu; Tue, 12 Apr 1994 01:42:12 -0700 Received: from localhost by erzo (8.6.5/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.1) id BAA04964; Tue, 12 Apr 1994 01:20:08 -0700 Resent-Message-Id: <199404120820.BAA04964@erzo> Received: from localhost by erzo (8.6.5/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.1) id HAA02788; Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:28:04 -0700 Received: from Sun.COM (Sun.COM [192.9.9.1]) by soda.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.8/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id HAA24111 for; Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:30:18 -0700 Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (sun-barr.Sun.COM) id AA25121; Mon, 11 Apr 94 00:18:39 PDT Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (isunnl) by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25573; Mon, 11 Apr 94 00:18:02 PDT Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA23389; Mon, 11 Apr 94 09:17:49 +0200 Received: from aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM (aft-ms-11) by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01733; Mon, 11 Apr 94 09:15:19 +0200 Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA23747; Mon, 11 Apr 1994 09:15:08 --100 Date: Mon, 11 Apr 1994 09:15:08 --100 Message-Id: <9404110715.AA23747@aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 11 Apr 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@holland.sun.com Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk Content-Length: 22263 Status: RO Resent-To: appel@soda.berkeley.edu Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 01:20:06 -0700 Resent-From: Shannon Appel X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Invisible Sacrileges and stuff Message-ID: Date: 9 Apr 94 08:03:58 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3568 Nigel Johnston in X-RQ-ID: 3540 > ANDERSJC@howdy.Princeton.EDU (Paul Anderson) says >> The point on "the human species" is well taken, but I don't think Glorantha >> has Linnaean species at all. Another hybrid is Gwalynkus the Good, who reigned >> in Dorastor c. 150. (D p.6) He is mostly descended from Theyalan humans, but >> his mother's father is a dwarf, and his father was descended in the female line >> from a dryad. > I remember finding this a bit strange. Dwarfs are basically edible stone > arent they ? Flintnail bothered me for the same reason. So what? Men created by Lodril et al are basically edible dirt. Both the Agimori and the Dara Happan creation myths have Lodril involved kneading some dirt into manshape, and getting the help of one or more other deities for the details (Trickster in Agimori legends, the Yelmic Court in Dara Happan myths). > Also Gwalynkus is also supposed to have married one of the last of the gold > wheel dancers. Pinniching (from the cradle scenario) is supposed to be a Gold > wheel dancer too, yet he (she? it?) is a spinning hoop. You would have to be > pretty wierd to marry a spinning hoop I think. This is not as weird as it seems on first look. I picture the First Council as a community where a lot of incidents from the lost Gods Age were transformed into religious rites. > So either Gwalynkus was deranged, or GW Dancers had more than one form, or the > author of the history had a fetish for strange unions... A marriage between certain kinds of priesthood is necessary for certain Theyalan rites, such as the River ritual. In GRoY Oslira, the blue serpent, couples with the Earth Spirit (an entity not explained, but probably one aspect of Genert). Nobody ever had the temerity to ask for the physical activities involved in that, but it worked. (No, I don't want to see a Kamasutra for deities. Do I?) > Does anyone have anymore info on the Gold Wheel Dancers ? Apart from the Cradle one, the story of Urrgh, the mention in Dorastor and peripheral mention in texts about the First Council I know of no published RQ supplement mentioning more. >> John Hughes talked about the kresh a day or two ago. > When I first read about the Kresh I assumed it must be dinosaurs pulling the > wagons. I agree that humans pulling them is a bit harder to cope with. I imagine Kresh wagons to be always on the move. Since they are enormous, so is their momentum. As long as the terrain is reasonably flat, all a team of pullers would have to do is to compensate for energy losses due to friction. The hard exercise would be either to stop a wagon, or to start it. I'd reserve momentary use of magic for these cases. There would be a regular ceremony to maintain the wagon, like the Cannon Cult humans have to care for their guns. The wagon would be the focus of ancestor worship as well - how do the Kresh bury their dead? Do they bury them like the Doraddi, and take some token from their medicine plants to include into the wagon? The average wagon would be similar to the eternal knife (one changes either the handle or the blade, but it remains the same knife), rebuilt over generations. This would make the question why the Kresh started to move along in wagons, and how a new wagon/clan is started, more interesting. Somehow the Kresh seem to suffer from a mutated Jmijie virus. Could the end of the Six-legged Empire have been the starting point for the Kresh? Guy Robinson in X-RQ-ID: 3541 > It is still a scam if > the population is subdued to allow the rulers to profit from > the tranquility and the worship of the populace. No, that's a state-bearing religion. The Orlanthi don't qualify, because their religion is not stat-bearing, but a best clan-serving. Not even the Orlanth Rex cult could really unify these individualists. This is why I dislike the Dara Happan way of life - it is strictly hierarchic, plus divided into castes ordained by birth. Only via extraordinary success in one of the minor Solar cults one can hope to aspire full citizenship in Dara Happa, possibly accompanied by a ritual of rebirth. The Lunars changed that, of course, much to the gall of the Dara Happans. > With the Wizard caste possessing the magical power within a > sorcerous society then in a society that is not too deeply > entrenched in its ways I believe that they would tend to rise > to the top. This might have been the case when Hrestol introduced the concept of chivalry. Among the Brithini, the Horal (Warrior) caste had become somewhat subservient to the Zzabur (Sorcerer) caste, but the most potent magic could only be performed if ordered by a Talar (Ruler) caste member. The Rokari somewhat ape this form of society, with high magic restricted to the sorcerer class/caste. Don't say so in their presence, though. The radicalist Loskalmi Hrestoli have made the class stages prerequisites for advancement, so that every ruler has been farmer, knight and sorcerer. I doubt the Castle Coast Hrestoli from Seshnela are as meritocratic, they'd retain more linealist influence. The Pamaltelan Rokari might as well be labelled linealist Hrestoli? > I am a bit suspectfull of the non-sorcerous cultures being > labeled as theistic. This akin to to acclaiming sorcerers > as glorious scientists and cults as terrible pagans. While > the sorcerers themselves might seek to claim this I do not > think is a suitable description. Nope. I used the (admittedly God Learner) classification from Cults of Terror which divides the general magical approaches into four lines, humanist (sorcery), theist (divine and cult spirit magic), naturalist (shamanistic spirit magic plus a limited set of special, no common, divine magic) and mystic (draconic magic? illumination? Or are both the same, only from a different starting point?). Note that I am the first to point at all the cases where two approaches overlap, e.g. Stygian Malkioni practice, or former Hykimi retaining some of their naturalist magic but adopting theistic (Theyalan, to be exact) worship in the First Age. The cultures or pantheons labeled theistic by the God Learners were the Merman pantheon, the Solar (Yelm) pantheon, and the Theyalan pantheon. Of these, they goofed up most of the Theyalan and part of the Merman myths. > My complaints about the sorcerer-priests is that they do not > appear to be offering the people they officiate over a far > crack of the whip. At least the Rune Cults do offer magic > to the common man at a reasonable cost. So do the Malkioni churches of the Hrestoli and the Stygian sects. Jonatings and Carmanians have a theistic lower class of peasants with magic of their own, but they teach to willing students. I don't know enough about Boristi or Galvosti, but I assume they are similar. The Vadeli freely teach sorcery. The exceptions are the Rokari (whose doctrine was spread in an imperialistic campaign by Bailifes the Hammer throughout Seshnela and western Safelster) and their example, the Brithini. > The average farmer for example might be able to purchase > a Battle Magic spell which is actually applicable to his > daily life in a flexible manner. Prehaps a reason for > the Sorcerer-Priests is partially to stop the spread of > cheap Battle Magic which devalues sorcerous training. In Hrestoli society, the same is true for low sorcery spells. Treat Wounds is about as flexible as is Heal... I don't see how spirit magic devaluates sorcerous training. The eastern sects encourage their low class populace to learn spirit magic, possiby to release their wizards from parts of their clerical duty. The Rokari (and worse, the Ramalians) have no inteest in magical prowess of the low classes at all - peasants knowing sorcery are about as popular as are full priests of Lodril in Peloria (only full priests of Lodril may perform the rebellion ritual). > In fact I feel the cost is too reasonable. There has to be > a catch, a hidden rake-back that people do not talk about > in public. This why I have no objections to accepting a > darker side to the Rune Cults. The cost for a point of cult spirit magic is 50 L in RQ3. This is two weeks' income for the average farmer. Note: Two weeks' income to spare, which will take quite a few seasons to lay aside. And then little Argrath needs a pair of new boots, and Kallyr's dowry needs to be collected. > Joerg mentions the size of the Invisible God's cult but > this does not guarantee that this cult is authentic. The > history of Glorantha is full of cyclic expansion and > contractions. This is treading dangerous ground, because the only paths laid out are the tracks of the God Learners. However, a lot of Gloranthan myths know a divine Creator entity, e.g. Ezelveztay in the Dara Happan myth. GRoY tells the legend how this Creator left the world because its existence within Creation was not possible. Instead the Celestial Court oversaw Creation, and the sequence of Elements ruled the world. The Malkioni state that when all the elements (Darkness, Water, Earth, Sky and Air, possibly plus chaos, although that's no element) were present, Malkion, descendant of a Storm God and a naiad, had the revelation of Solace which helped his people through the Darkness. Hrestol had a revelation from Malkion how to treat Death and Solace within Time. The Return to Rightness Crusade in the early Second Age spread the true doctrine of the Invisible God among the continental Malkioni and destroyed Arkat's Dark (=Stygian) Empire. These are the facts beyond even God Learner interaction. I have assumed for the Aeolians that they worship a trinity (three corners of the Law Rune) of the Creator, the Spirit of the World, and Creator born into Creation. Their philosophers equate these with the Invisible God, Glorantha - Ginna Jar - Arachne Solara, and Orlanth Lightbringer. These identifications will have been influenced to some degree by the God Learners, but at least the Return to Rightness Crusaders never came into the Shadowlands. The Aeolians "know" they worship a divine entity beyond Creation, plus its incarnation(s) within Creation (in Godtime ot the Gods' plane respectively). > Prehaps the salvation of the Orlanthi will be the > mobilization of the lands of the Invisible God once the > insubstanciality and as well as the invisibility of > the Invisible God is exposed. Where better to recuit > help from against the might of the Lunar Empire? The Orlanthi have an easy way to get rid of anything they don't like: they just need to unite, and throw the damn thing off. This however is as likely as all winds blowing together to one spot, unless a special hero appears (Orlanth Lightbringer, Lokamayadon, Harmast Barefoot, Arkat, Vistikos Left-Eye, Alakoring Dragonbreaker, Argrath?). Lack of unity is the hallmark of the Orlanthi, and their cultural identity against the threats of the surrounding cultures. Individually they are among the most powerful people to be found on Glorantha. Their magic would be well suited to combat anything to cross them. However, whenever the Orlanthi unify their efforts, and create something great, like the three Theyalan Councils, they give up part of their identity, and weaken themselves. I don't know what a unified Barbarian Belt in the fourth Age after Argrath would develop into, but the few glimpses of the Harshax regime given in KoS persuaded me not to travel there. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: True Broo? Message-ID: <940409095750_100270.337_BHL6-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 9 Apr 94 09:57:50 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3569 ____________ Sandy wrote: > In addition, I rather expect that whenever a person has delved deeply > into chaos and been changed significantly as a result, he is termed a > "broo", regardless of whether he possesses the normal capabilities or > features of a broo. Here in Lismelder lands, we know that this has happened to the Red Emperor; just look at his beard. Goatee = goaty. Proof, if any were needed. ___________ Alex wrote: > If failure in trying to join a cult, very likely in some circumstances, > means immediate expulsion for the clan or tribe, this is a much more > serious consequence. Normally with cults you can try again later, and > don't suffer deleterious results in the meantime in any case. Back in the Old Days, the initiation rites into Orlanth were *lethal* for anyone who failed. Yeah, that's the ones every adolescent male had to pass in order to become an adult. Don't come whinging to me about "deleterious results" of failing initiation in this wimpish modern world... You know, I think my relatives up in the Starfire Ridges may still do it this way, but *nobody* talks about initiation rites outside of the clan. _______________________________ Re: "The Arming of Baumgartner" I thought it was always the Yelmic guy who turned up for the contest of weapons armed with a bow. Hey, if we can fight it under Gloranthan rules, maybe I should take Joerg up on that duel he proffered a month or so ago. He can impress me (and the judges) by firing off his far-darting arrows, then I'll whip out my trusty snickersnee... ------------ I'm off for a short holiday touring the Vatican with the author of Credo. If we don't make it back, you can send future Gloranthan questions to me c/o the Holy Office. ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander) Subject: Gold Wheel Dancers, Vithela et al Message-ID: <9404091555.AA26338@ppvku.ericsson.se> Date: 9 Apr 94 19:55:02 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3570 Nils Weinander writing In the daily 94-04-09 Sandy P writes: >Gold Wheel Dancers, when not doing their magic, take on a more >humanoid form. Pinchining appeared to Urggh the Ugly as a radiant >golden woman then (as I recall) rolled away as a hoop. Now this is interesting. In the description of the Outer World of Glorantha, the inhabitants of Vithela are said to be golden, with voices of pure song. Is this a coincidence, or are they related? On the subject of Vithela I have a question: Sandy has in two postings mentioned Vithela as a kind of paradise for dead people from Kralorela. (I can't give exact references since I have deleted the files stupidly enough, when I tidy up on my computer account at work I always forget that I have 1.2 Gb of disk at home...). The Genertela book says nothing about this, only that the dead of Kralorela wait as spirits until the current emperor dies, and then follow him to Someplace Else. Is Vithela this Someplace Else? I am not fishing for 'official information' but this hint of a myth interests me since my yet-not-off-the-ground eastern campaign will include a trip to Vithela in the end. So, could Sandy or someone else enlighten me somewhat on the subject? Also, would other easterners, like the inhabitants of the East Isles share this belief? /Nils W --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: stuff Message-ID: <9404091824.AA15411@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 9 Apr 94 05:08:53 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3571 MOB asks: >What do other people think about making direct comparisons between >terrestrial and lozengial locations? I think it is a useful and highly adaptive gamemastering technique. It assists the players in envisioning the world around them and the cultures they are encountering. Looky here, even on Earth there are few truly unique sites. Telling someone in Glorantha that the Tunneled Hills look like the western Badlands is pretty helpful for an American. Or that the elf woods they're traveling through looks like the Northwest rain forest. I always tell my players that Prax looks a lot like Nevada. IMO the Great Basin is a fine representation of the Praxian lands -- it's poorly drained (when it rains, little bogs pop up all over), mostly dry, and the plant life alternates between brown and bleached gray. There's lots of little rock formations and low mountains, and the whole thing is just awful. For that matter, I compare the Dead Place to the Utah salt flats. Not only are both devoid of life, but both are supposedly the remains of a dead lake (this info on the Dead Place I get from looking at a topographic map of Prax). Of course, the Dead Place also has dire magic effects. Some sites are unique to Glorantha, and don't really have parallels on Earth. Comparing the Tar Pit on the Shadow Plateau to La Brea doesn't seem like an exact parallel to me. And sites that are unique on Earth shouldn't be stolen except in extreme cases. I might tell a player that the Hellcrack looks a bit like the Grand Canyon, frex. Alex Ferguson sez: >Frinst, do we believe Sandy's suggestion that storm worshippers are >collectively dumb-ass idiotically grinning West Coast happy-go-lucky >optimists, while solar types are angst-ridden uptight East Coast >Woody Allen clones, with a consequently pessimistic outlook? I >think I paraphrase fairly. This summary of my efforts makes me grin. A lot. Thanks, Alex. >Calling Yelm `benign', because he shines one everyone, worshipper or >not is a bit dubious, too: one might as well say Orlanth was >`benign' for not suffocating everyone. You missed my point. The natural effects of a deity reflect his nature to some degree. The sun's effects rarely are harmful to folks and crops, whereas bad storms are well-known everywhere. Orlanth is a "dangerous" god, while Yelm is a "safe" god, to coin an oversimplification. Alex comments that Storm Khans don't get 1d10 DI. Don't they? (quick looking up of GoG's text). Holy Smokes! Error Alert! That's a mistake. I play that Storm Khans get 1D10 DI, and so does everyone I know. Alex also continues needling me about becoming a Dayzatar monk. Everyone doesn't become one because you gotta have been a priest in long standing of some other Solar cult. Once you've been a Yelm priest for twenty years, the appeal of locking yourself in a tower for your retirement may lose some of its panache. >If you take the published history of Sun County seriously, [the >Praxian Yelmalions] were, for a time, completely isolated. Sorry. Haven't even read Sun County. Don't even own a copy. >Has anyone run across references to actual people (not gods) riding >chariots? Sounds like a Solar thing to me. I suspect that actual combat in chariots has vanished in most parts of Glorantha, but might have been common in the First Age, say. (Except where supported by magic or mytholigical importance.) Travel and racing in chariots may still be popular in places. I note that the old Nomad Gods game had a spare counter depicting charioteers. --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu Subject: Re: Broomanity Message-ID: <9404091854.AA00761@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 9 Apr 94 18:54:53 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3572 Paul R. here: Joerg asks: >How frequently will any member of another race (female or male) be >transformed into a broo by accepting one too many chaotic feature? I think that saying "You transform into a broo" is a way of saying "Your spuffiness becomes obvious to all and sundry and you can no longer keep up a lifestyle among 'normal' people." I think it cheapens the origin of the Broo as Children of Thed to say that just anyone can transform into a broo. There are many paths to Primal Chaos; Rape is only one. Thed is the Mother of Rape and I think that someone exploring the Path of Rape _might_ be able to transform into a Broo. However, even a Hero of Thed need not transform into a Broo - Delecti is a Hero of Vivamort (by popular repute) and he is not a vampire per se. People on other Paths to chaos might transform into something else. Primal Chaos itself should not always transform you into a particular race - that would be bizarrely Lawful. Instead you will just be mutated in some random direction. We have had characters (NPC's mostly) undergo Chaotic transformations in my campaign. Only one became a Broo - the Hanged Man. Well, another one sort of did, but as she was female people really didn't think of her as a broo. Besides, she was basically a good person - just insane. -p --------------------- From: garth.blore@chatbox.proxima.alt.za (Garth Blore) Subject: medieval roads Message-ID: <4284.150.uupcb@chatbox.proxima.alt.za> Date: 9 Apr 94 22:48:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3573 Does anyone know the actual state of roads in medieval world, like Glorantha for instance? I like to operate my campaigns off a largely realistic footing. Making things like weather and the capabilities of pack animals matter. I am assuming that the main roads between two large urban centres would be packed earth about wide enough for a wagon and two files of troops, the brush on either side thinned out to some 20 feet or so. They are maintained on a regular basis, with the potholes filled with gravel and cut branches, they may even be corded at in lowlying areas. Lesser roads would be narrower and would be deeply rutted. Tracks are frequently blocked by fallen trees and it is the repsonsibility of travellers to remove these obstacles. What is the frequency of real cobbelled roads, and what kind of civilisation would be necessary to produce that quality of road. I would like to know how others feel about these assumptions and any contributions and corrections will be welcomed. In addition any references I could look up would be great. Thanks Garth garth.blore@chatbox.proxima.alt.za