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---------------------
From: jeff@cotopaxi.Stanford.EDU (Jeff Freymueller)
Subject: Re: MOB, geographical analogues
Message-ID: <9404092230.AA22502@cotopaxi.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 9 Apr 94 22:30:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3574
MOB wrote:
>
>From Tales #11 Review (he didn't say who the author was, and I
haven't received my copy yet!):
># Which is why
>#I find one new section particularly intrusive and unwelcome: "Living
>#in the World" on p.86 compares parts of Dorastor to various places on
>#Earth.
>
>#I have two problems with this: firstly, unless you've been there,
>#stating that certain locations are based on terrestrial areas are
>#not all that helpful ....
>
>I agree with the reviewer's sentiments entirely.
>
>What do other people think about making direct comparisons between
>terrestrial and lozengial locations?
I must say that I take the opposite position!
I find that this sort of geographical analogue can help tremendously
to visualize the world. Even gamers who haven't seen those locations
will still have SOME idea what they look like. And if you have no idea
at all what the Earth place looks like, you can just ignore the
proposed analogue or choose one of your own. Despite what Ken Rolston
wrote in River of Cradles, I still imagine the central part of the
Zola Fel River to look like the northern Colorado River in Utah, north
of the Canyonlands where the Green River joins it.
>From the reviewer again:
>#If the Tobros Mountains are the Cascade Range, then why don't we just
>#play our RQ in "Alternate Earth" and be done with it?
I think this is one of the sillier statements I've heard lately...
although who am I to talk since I play in "Alternate Earth"
anyway!
Jeff
---------------------
From: jeffjoh@microsoft.com
Subject: 'Phalangites'
Message-ID: <9404092357.AA21889@itgmsm>
Date: 9 Apr 94 23:55:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3575
Aden Steinke spake :
> ... The Sun Dome Templars are true phalangites (in the manner of
> Alexander's Macedonian veterans), armed with pike and well drilled ...
I object. The typical Macedonian pikeman was lightly armoured.
Yelmalions compare more directly in equipment to the armoured hoplites
of Sparta and Athens.
The two most effective military systems to use a long, two-handed
pike - the Swiss and Macedonians - both had lightly armoured infantry.
In general, infantry had either heavy armour or bulky weapons, but not
both. (Of course, they could also have neither).
Jeff Johnson
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Married to the Wheel; Sun Kings
Message-ID: <199404100020.AA01464@radiomail.net>
Date: 10 Apr 94 00:20:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3576
Nigel Johnston said
>Also Gwalynkus is also supposed to have married one of the last of the gold
>wheel dancers. Pinniching (from the cradle scenario) is supposed to be a Gold
>wheel dancer too, yet he (she? it?) is a spinning hoop. You would have to be
>pretty wierd to marry a spinning hoop I think.
You're forgetting that one of the top two reasons for marriage is to form
alliances between families. An alliance with the Gold Wheel Dancers would
be quite impressive. And if Gwalynkus already had kids, the other major
reason for marriage (producing an heir) wouldn't matter.
Alex Ferguson said
>I think that solar cultures tend towards a much stricter adherence towards
>strictly lineal heredity of Kingship
This is not true among the Sun-worshipping horse nomads, according to the
Wyrm's Footnotes article. They choose kings from noble clans or families
(much as did, surprise surprise, the Mongols).
---------------------
From: devinc@aol.com
Subject: Genertela - Crucible of the Hero Wars
Message-ID: <9404092041.tn589855@aol.com>
Date: 10 Apr 94 00:41:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3577
Devin Cutler here:
A few items:
1) I just got and am reading Stragers in Prax...seems great so far. I
particularly enjoy the Lunar Coders, as it is nice to see Lunars who are
adversaries still portrayed as possessing some of the best qualities of the
Lunar Empire and its dogma. Of particular note is Nose-Ring, who I think
makes for an extremely interesting, sympathetic, and complex character.
2) TOTRM 11 is also quite good. I hope that Pamaltela Pack comes out soon.
3) I am starting to reread Genertela-Crucible of the Hero Wars region by
region, and questions are popping up, which I will be posting here for
elucidation from you learned people.
FRONELAN QUESTIONS:
A) On page 12 of Genertela, under Prophecies of the Hero Wars, it reades
"...Arinsor was a chaos wizard of Gbaji the Deceiver's Empire..."
Arinsor is also the name of the first count of Sun Dome County in Prax.
Is there some mystical connection or just an example of two people sharing
the same name?
B) I am having a problem with the timing of the Syndics Ban. On page 14 of
Genertela, it says "...Snodal is best know because he organized the
conspiracy which killed the God of the Silver Feet late in 1499 and
instituted the Syndics Ban in Fronela."
On page 15 it says "In 1582 Dormal the Sailor landed, marking the end of both
the Closing and Syndics Ban for Loskalm."
But then, right after, it says "This visit, announces by the Sog City
priesthood beforehand, was the first outside communication to reach Loskalm
in 111 years."
Huh?!? Let's see, subtract 111 years from 1582 and you get 1471, which means
that for 28 years before the Syndics Ban Loskalm had no contact with the
outside world? Obviously, the dates given are wrong, but which date? The
1499, the 1582, or the 111 years?
Do I get a no-prize?
Regards, Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: Cults
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Apr 94 13:43:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3578
Martin Crim in X-RQ-ID: 3559
> I said:
>>> As for Urox, I believe his emergence as a separate cult is a second
>>> or third age development.
> Alex Ferguson says:
>> This is sustainable (perhaps) in Orlanthi lands, but not, one has to
>> presume, in Prax and the Wastes.
> Except that there were NO cults in Prax until the Pure Horse people came
> there. Remember, the PHP were successful because they had true divine magic.
> Sure, Urox was a part of the mythology of Prax, but there was no cult, just
> shamanism.
Cutting a flaming first reaction, a question, Martin: How do you define a
cult, when you say there weren't any in Prax?
Prax lay in one of the three directions the Theyalan missionaries went in
the First Age. Apparently, by around 35 ST, they came with Humakti
bodyguards (according to Cults of Prax, p.32). Surely they brought the
concept of cultic worship with them, and they seem to have reached the
Paps, where remnants of the Golden Age priesthood held out.
The Uz from Dagori Inkarth knew cultic worship at least from the Dawn
on. Another possible 1st Age influx of these practises.
> There are lots of these mythological figures who have no real developed
> cult--look at all those figures in the Orlanth write-up in WF. There's a
> continuum from obscure figures through guys like Barntar through aspects like
> Orlanth Rex to semi-independent cults like Mastakos all the way to really
> separate cults. So I guess I agree with Alex.
Yes, all these mythological figures which DO receive worship via other
cults are one of the reasons why I advocate initiation into a pantheon.
Right now I help myself with the one religion - many saints concept for
the Aeolian church. I find it not too different from the Praxian "worship
whichever attending spirit" praxis, although if conflicts like the magical
ones in Nomad Gods occur regularly, the average Praxian nomad will have
sacrificed at least one point of permanent POW to two dozen different
spirits in his lifetime, not counting his or her tribal spirits and deities.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Population figures
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Apr 94 13:44:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3579
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 3567
> It's odd, but with all the deities listed in King of Sartar, I don't see
> one relating to cattle. Cattle are of obvious importance to the Orlanthi
> (you need to own 8 oxen to be of reasonable status). There's an implication
> [247] that herders are rivals for Voria, and that Voria would be the cattle
> goddess, but I doubt this. Derik Pol-Joni had a magic bull lead his cattle.
Isn't there a certain Urox in the pantheon, married to a certain
daughter of Ernalda named Eiritha?
I know, Urox's real cattle is the Sky Bull (and the hero-path of Gorangi
Vakshows how to tame them). Since Barntar is the Plowman, I'd expect him
to have a similar path of putting the yoke onto a pair of bulls (oxen).
> Another population question concerns the Grazelands. There are 40000 people
> listed. Greg's said that over half the population are vendref, but it's not
> clear from his letters whether there are 40000 True Horse people and as
> many vendref, or if their combined population is 40000.
The area of the Grazelands is approximately 1/5 of the Heortland area.
Using the population numbers from the RQ3 Gamemasters' Book Heortland is
as densely settled as an agricultural feudal country can be, with the
closest distance between villages an average of 5 km. The culture of the
Riders' upper class forbids this dense farming concentration, so the
entire population will be considerably lower than 100,000 (1/5 of
Heortland).
I always understood this figure to include all humans of the country.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: From the Sphere to the Lozenge
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Apr 94 13:44:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3580
MOB asks in X-RQ-ID: 3555
> What do other people think about making direct comparisons between
> terrestrial and lozengial locations?
I think it certainly helps the imagination if one can use one's real
life experience to picture a landscape. As we combine features of
Terra's cultures for certain Gloranthan cultures, why not use features
of landscape in Gloranthan context?
I am pretty sure that the maelstrom south of the Lofot Islands is
similar to that before the Troll Straits off the Left Arm Islands,
and that King Arthur's Seat from Edinburgh can be found somewhere in
southern Heortland or Esrolia. Only the context would be different.
There are places which work the other way round: Think of the Block
replacing Ayers Rock, and I imagine you get a fair picture of
that area of Prax, looking from Pimper's Block.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: And yet initiation
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Apr 94 14:02:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3581
Alex "Sorry, this time no epithet" Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3560
>> People stressing the (IMHO tenuous) landbound Viking parallel for the
>> Orlanthi might use the "Men without Gods" section from RQ Vikings for
>> non-initiates
> No, I'm not suggesting this. However, I think it would not be unknown
> for people to have undergone the `tribal'/`cultural' initiation, a la
> Apple Lane, Adulthood Initiation of _KoS_, whatever, without yet having
> joined a cult, for the simple reason not everyone due to be thusly initiated
> will be able to qualify for their intended cult. Such people would be
> Adults and full members of the clan for most purposes, but may not be
> allowed to marry, or perhaps not to vote, and will certainly have their
> parents telling them to get a Life/Cult at regular intervals.
> The other likely alternative is that Adulthood Initiation is postponed in
> these cases.
Well, just yesterday I played out the adulthood plus general religious
initiation rite of my Aeolian Heortland characters.
> True. But while most people will simply join their parents' cult, some
> won't. What if your parents are Issaries and Ernalda initiates, say,
> and you want to join Orlanth. Not unreasonable, but if you are forced to
> take clan initiation and cult initiation together, at fifteen or so, you'll
> almost certainly flub.
For Aeolian Heortland (the Hendriki) I loan heavily from several sources.
One of these is Raymond Feist's Midkemia (I happen to read the revised
edition of Magician: Apprentice right now, get it and read it), which has
a Midsummer adulthood rite called the Choosing. At the age of 13, the
boys of a town (not including the rural population!) is "handed around"
among the crafts and trades and aquire a basic notion of what the single
careers and crafts consist of. Simultaneously, the craft (and trade)
masters get the opportunity to pick out those boys possessing talent (in
addition to those who come into a trade by hereditary means).
Boys who aren't chosen will become adults, but not full citizens. Those
who seek a trade not available at their home may cut their family ties
and try to get an apprenticeship elsewhere. Boys choosing to become
sailors become citizens of their captain's home port.
The whole ceremony is (now) described very detailed, and helped me to
come up with my own version, tailored to my campaign needs.
>>> What happens if he fails?
>>> Does he get bounced out of the clan, have to wait until the next lot of
>>> clan initiations, and try the whole thing again, or simply wait a year,
>>> and retry joining the cult (or even try joining another in the meantime)?
>> Were it Prax, the denied candidate would have to join either the Pol Joni
>> or the Gagarthi. In Sartar, she could always stick to one of the minor
>> cults, like Geo.
> My point is that if failure in trying to join a cult, very likely in some
> circumstances, means immediate expulsion for the clan or tribe, this is
> a much more serious consequence. Normally with cults you can try again
> later, and don't suffer deleterious results in the meantime in any case.
I almost faced this development yesterday, when one of the players utterly
failed in the preliminary tests. Luckily I had decided that part of the
ceremony would be a ritual reenactment of a common legend, and in this
he excelled.
I would have let him pass as an adult, but not as a full member of
the clan. For one thing, he wouldn't have been included in the oath of
allegiance ceremony to Clan and Lord after the tests, for the other thing,
he would have remained lay member and not Associate Initiate member
of the Aeolian Church.
The ceremony was conducted on Clay/Fertility/Fire, the High Holy Day of
the Invisible God, and extended through the night and into the next morning.
The whole setup was a country fair as well as a religious ceremony, and the
preliminary tests were a source of great amusement, like passing a 10 m
plank over which 8 sacks filled with sand or worse were swung.
Some of the tests were miniature reenactments, like the fight between a
Yelmalio candidate and an Orlanth (knighthood) candidate on two planks
over the raging mill canal. (The Yelmalio fell into the water, and was
saved by the Orlanthi, so the Orlanth and Elmal myth was satisfied...)
The day after the adulthood initiation the young men are members of
the Aeolian Church. They may have chosen a patron Saint/Deity and even
been tested in the appropriate skills, but they don't belong to that
patron's subcult until they have undergone the specific rites of this
cult on the appropriate holy day. They are adults, nonetheless.
Following RQ Companion, I assume that most farmers will choose Barntar
as patron deity/saint. (In the following I will write "Saint" only, but
the Aeolians differentiate between divine Saints and human Saints. The
most powerful human Saints will have been apotheosized, and have become
divine in their own right.) Members of the Thegn class will default for
one of the aspects (sons) of Orlanth as patron Saint, but are more likely
to go for a specialized Saint than the farmer Ceorls or Cottars. Thegns
aspiring to Cnihthood are likely candidates for e.g. St. Humakt or St. Arkat
Humaktsson.
Cottars might even stick with Voriof, being no full members of Hendriki
society for lack of plowland.
>>> (Presumably initiation into Voria or Voriof `doesn't count', at least.)
>> That is what the "pantheon initiation" faction means by low initiate state.
> I don't think it is: their idea was that Low Initiation would qualify one
> for adulthood.
You're right, not as I said it. A Voriof initiate would be a boy who
has reached the age of school-boy, and is receiving tasks vital to the
community, although not difficult, like keeping the sheep. This stage of
Low initiation is not restricted to one deity only, though, and a
crafter's proto-apprentice would be considered a "Voriof initiate" as
expression of his age group in the pantheon, even if already an advanced
lay member of Gustbran. The Voriof initiation doesn't count for adulthood,
but allows minor partaking in religious ceremonies, more so than a visiting
participant of a foreign religion could.
> I don't mean Ancestor worship, I mean `hereditary' worship. "I come from
> a long line of Lhankor Mhy Sages. You want to become a Sun-Domer? Never
> darken my door again, ex-son." One might be excluded from a particular
> bloodline without losing membership of the clan, and without being debarred
> from (the possibility of) being an Adult. I doubt this is very common,
> however.
"But, father, it is the Light of Knowledge and Truth I have found there!"
(And: Why "darken"? A Sun-Domer shines!)
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Me and Sandy
Message-ID:
Date: 10 Apr 94 14:03:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3582
Sandy wonders about agreeing with me, and Alex titles a subject:
"Joerg slays Sandy."
Do I write this offensive?
While I attacked Sandy's picture of Yelm as the friendly beard in the Sky,
and disagreed with a few other statements of Sandy, I do agree with
most of Sandy's writing (all that I don't comment upon). Only not in
public, until now.
> This thread has of course launched into The Contests of Sandy and Joerg,
> and by the time I post this, will doubtless have gotten to the point where
> The Arming of Baumgartner is being carried out, to rescue Sandy's severed
> net uplink.
I don't think so. The Spike in Henk's machine hasn't exploded yet, and I
don't think my sword of scepticism compares with the item Eurmal fetched
for Humakt. And Yelm was slain only in the last of the contests, after
the judges had decided against the Storm candidate again and again.
Anyway, I am trained as the archer, not (yet) as wielder of the sword.
And as a good Orlanthi I am willing to Compromise, once I have shown my
strength.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
Subject: Thanatar, Krarsht, Humakt amok
Message-ID: <9404101727.AA10240@Sun.COM>
Date: 10 Apr 94 17:24:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3583
Thanatar heads & glasses: having seen Gloranthan spectacles before
(on Scholar Wyrm?), I shouldn't have been so surprised to see another
pair. Given how easily the damn things fall off, get lost, broken,
etc. (glasses, not heads), that the priest bothers to keep his heads'
glasses in place implies the heads need them. The rules have
the priest access his heads' knowledge and then use if himself (which
reminds me more than anything of a file processing program accessing
secondary storage), but maybe it would be more colorful to have the
priest force the heads to answer questions and cast spells on his
behalf.
Krarshtkids: Krarshtkids are at their best crawling around on the
ceiling and falling on adventurers, but what about at floor-level?
I would guess they support themselves "upright" (symmetry axis through
the mouth held horizontal) on three legs and flail around with the
other three. Of the three legs they move with, then, they alternate
stepping forward with the two outside legs and use the third leg to
push themselves along? Considering how the limbs are articulated for
climbing, the swings with the upper legs would look like backhand
strokes, I think.
For some monsters, like krarshtkids, nosewalkers, Cwm, it would be
helpful and entertaining to have page-corner-flipping animated
drawings. If I can find time to spare from interviewing and
school (ha) I may try something along those lines.
"What's in a name": What does "Humakt" sound like? The duck
connection reminds me an old Loony Toons cartoon.
"Duck of Humakt" = "Duck Amuck" ?
-Newton