From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 16 Apr 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: john.hughes@anu.edu.au (John P Hughes) Subject: Pamaltela Message-ID: <9404160149.AA16716@cscgpo.anu.edu.au> Date: 16 Apr 94 16:49:15 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3670 PAMALTELA - I PLEAD GUILTY! In which Sandy Petersen cries Havoc, while trying to have his flatbread and eat it too, and John Hughes rushes forward to confess (nay, proclaim!) himself guilty as charged. 'So, they had sex. What's the big deal? It's not as though they kissed or anything.' !Yim//bun the Strong. Left Hand Doraddi. Hmmm. A stranger approaches. Let's make a fire and cook some flatbread together. Sandy opines: >I can't speak for the weird Australian-oid material that has been >coming out recently, all about "skins" and "Left-Hand path", >etc. How closely is it based on Australian culture? VERY loosely Sandy. Analogue only. Lots of original and Chaosium background stuff as well. Note that 'skin' is merely an alternative term for 'clan' or 'family'. All human cultures have skins. They are mentioned quite a lot in the Chaosium materials on Pamaltela. Sandy, I'm jest a little confused by your comments. First of all, what do you mean by 'weird'? In certain contexts, 'weird' can be the greatest compliment paid to Gloranthan material. Weird meaning strange yet also familiar; weird meaning disturbing but also making profound sense in context. Things that shake you out of your ethnocentrism and cognicentrism (i.e. our predominantly male, western Judeo-Christian materialistic culture), things that challenge your ideas of how the world might work. Things of wonder. Things of depth, as opposed to the 'silly monstersand big sticks' approach of other games. Trollpack was weird. King of Sartar was weird. My first encounter with an all-female Lunar elite unit was weird (and deadly) - I was a lot younger back then. It was weird for my players when they first met a priestess of Uleria. (Rather than being a stereotypical prostitute, she choose whom SHE wished to worship with, and was in fact a learned, culturally powerful and much respected figure whose primary role was to provide local social and business information to travellers. Her temple was a local information / consultancy bureau, and worshippers came to her for ALL the comfort and learning of charis/karuna (just as in ancient Near East)). When I encounter weird in a game, I stop, I argue, I think through the implications of Glorantha's real magic and gods, and the limitations of my own western world view. I also think about the limitations of commercial roleplaying, and the wargaming / strategy model that has dominated its history, obscuring so much of what the hobby has to offer. Weird is liberating, and very enjoyable, and for me it's a big part of what roleplaying is all about. Now, while 'weird' was indeed one of the aims of the Pamaltelan material I submitted to Tales, I suspect that in using the word, Sandy was not intending a compliment. Of course I may be wrong. Sandy, exactly what do you mean by 'weird Australian-oid material'? DID you enjoy Tales #11? If not, what did you object to? Was it dull or stereotyped? Does the content clash in any way with Chaosium's published material? Does it close off any imaginative possibilities for gms, fellow creators and travellers? Now back to Sandy's original (rhetorical?) question. My material was designed, not only to fulfil the look and feel of a functioning Gloranthan culture, but also to comply fully with all of Chaosium's published Pamaltelan material, as well as all of the unpublished material provided me by Greg. The Aranjara material is Gloranthan, and, far from being a 'transplant' of Koori society has many elements either created by me or adapted from Chaosium background materials. The Aranjara spring from my imagination and storytelling and roleplaying and journeying, shared and mediated by the imagination and creativity of fellow travellers. The prime design aim was to present IN DETAIL a society as far removed from the stereotypical D&Dish western medieval village as possible, to demonstrate how it might work, and to explore its roleplaying possibilities. 'Just a moment stranger. I will sing the fire into life. Will you thank the totem for us all?' Let me give a few examples. (Please remember that 'Aboriginal society' is a generalisation for over 750 language and culture groups spanning an entire continent, from tropical island paradise to snow-blasted highlands to 60C gibber desert). Non-Koori elements included by me in the Aranjara material include: the prominent role of women in public life: matrilineal descent and all that results from it, including the high degree of sexual and social freedom for women; Songs of Power and the resultant magic system; ritual abduction in marriage; personalised gods; the cultic structures of the Dreaming and the levels of initiation; the Women's Circle and its role; female shamans; the typical personality characteristics I ascribe to Aranjara culture; the click language; brideservice; the strong reincarnation/reawakening elements; The Great Dance; the physical limitations of being bonded to country; the kissing taboo; livers; flames; True Names; Power Totems... and vegemite. Enough? The religious landscape was constructed around the Chaosium Pamalt cult write-up supplied by Greg. The kinship system (and the accompanying kinship article) was a mix&match from many systems, constructed with an eye to enjoyment, role-playability and relative simplicity. The Mimi are part of Koori mythology, but their powers as described are purely my (and Philippa's) invention. The initiation ceremonies are our own. So is the idea of the groomquest. I'm happy to proclaim that certain features of Koori (and African, and Arabian, and Siberian) culture inspired my writing, and that a Koori 'analogue' can provide a good introductory 'look & feel' for beginners to certain parts of Pamaltela, and as a focus for 'meta-level' exploration as occurs on the Digest. (After all, such analogues have been used in in various magazine articles and in Chaosium submission guidelines). However the Aranjara are GLORANTHAN, were constructed using (to the best of my, Philippa's and the editor's knowledge) Glorantha on its own terms, and (hopefully!) with a sensitivity to Glorantha's history and its magical and physical environment. I hope I don't have to explain the difference between imitation and inspiration. Not even Sandy seems to jump when someone says, for example, that Sartarites are loosely based on an Anglo-Saxon/Celt/Viking mix. What's then the problem with admitting that Pamaltela has some elements based loosely on African/Aboriginal/Arabian/Siberian/Mongolian/???? cultures, especially since Chaosium has published only a few paragraphs on the culture of the continent, the fact that it's VERY BIG (as big and diverse as Genertela in the north), and that it's unlikely that ANY official Chaosium material will be published in the indefinite future. If we don't use analogues for Pamaltela, (or worse, believe that it is a 'unique creation' that can only be explored using unpublished and often fragmentary dribs and drabs from the original house campaign) we might as well leave the place alone. It's been eight years since the Pamaltela sketchbook was put together for World of Gloratha, and it may easily be another eight years before it, (or its successors) are published, if ever. While this may suit some people, for me it goes against the fundamentally democratic nature of the Gloranthan community. No one, not even Greg, controls my imagination or limits what I can or cannot do within the agreed common limit's of the Gloranthan vision. Pamaltela is there. We know about it, it calls, and many of us have already landed. The skins are gathering. All we had published before Tales #11 was Pamaltela's monsters, a few paragraph descriptions of gods, and the broadest of geographical / sociopolitical data. If Pamaltela is ever to rival the richness of Genertela, we if fact need many MORE cultures and cultural analogues, as well as mythomagical, cultic and political constructions to rival the depth and diversity of the Norths. 'Care for some flatbread, stranger?' I note that at the end of his posting, after asking how much is derived from Koori material, Sandy seems to have already made up his mind... > But I feel, with Devin, that exactly adapting terrestrial cultures > to Glorantha (as seems to have been done with the Pamaltelan > "skins" material) is an error. I agree with the first part totally. Curiously, in preparing the Pamaltela issue, I argued this very point in putting forward my two bolgs worth over what material to include. Your second assertion is INCORRECT. You were wrong in believing the Aranjara material to be any sort of direct analogue. 'What is this? In your country you keep the flatbread and eat it too?' The idea of using a Koori analogue for certain parts of Pamaltela was first voiced by Greg Stafford when he was visiting us Down Under in 1992. (Hey, we gotta chain that boy down, he's getting too many ideas :-) ). Greg later suggested to David Hall (Tales editor) that Philippa and I might do some material for the Pamaltela issue, and he sent me the unpublished Chaosium materials as a guideline. It grew from there. The Koori analogue did not begin with me. Facing the problem of integrating this suggested new analogue with existing (though unpublished and often fragmentary) material (which Sandy has carefully reminded us is not African at all :-) ), I deliberately choose an isolated area far from the mainstream of Doraddi life, kept the population low, and provided a full origin myth to explain the differences. I interpreted the Chaosium description of the two types of Kalali folk, "the men who sing 'da da' and the men who sing 'beanie beanie'", as providing an existing hook to explain the cultural divide. ( I mean, what else could you do with it?!!?) 'Among the Left Hand folk, most material goods are seen as potentially malign unless eternally in motion through trade and exchange. The only exceptions are spears, digging sticks, personal adornment and ceremonial ochres. The Left Hand trade what we would regard as useless things - feathers, sacred stones, belts of hair, congealed spirits, human umbilical cords. For them, "Things" are merely tokens of intent - to meet again, trade songs, negotiate, marry, dance, sing. Songs are the principle medium of exchange. The Aranjara say, "Things are not good. Things have a way of getting into your liver, telling your liver what to do. They are distractions from the important things in life. Like singing. Like dancing. Like ceremony. Like Vegemite." Surinda of the Twisted Lance Having said all that, I should state that I DID want my material to take a slightly unusual perspective, a theme that MOB took up in the Tales editorial. I wanted to get as far away as possible from spells and fighting and Illuminated chaotic Ulerian were-mountains. I wanted to explore the mechanics of a matrilineal society. I wanted to emphasise women and emotion and cultural difference. I wanted to show some of the roleplaying possibilities of using an extended kinship system, something Greg had begun in 'Report On The Orlanthi' in King Of Sartar. I wanted to emphasise the finer details of daily life, as Greg had also done in that work. I wanted to portray sex, romance, marriage and family life in a sensible roleplaying context. And I wanted to challenge the imagination of fellow questers as to the type of scenario and culture they could run, and some of the various approaches they might use in their mutual storytelling. Now I'm not claiming that I succeeded in any of this. But I tried, and with the many other people who contributed significantly to the project, hopefully gave questers a glimpse into what Pamaltela might become. 'Ummm, nice bread. So stranger, what is your skin?' I believe that the richness of the Great Southern Land, at this very early stage of its development, should be a testing ground for as many ideas and cultures and perspectives as possible. At least until something official is published, lets experiment and share what we discover. With tools like the Digest, and the Gloranthan expertise of its contributors, we can share ideas and debate them in a forum unthinkable when Greg was constructing Genertela. Our common vision of Glorantha can only benefit. Pamaltela is VAST. I believe it's big enough to hold the imagination of Greg and Sandy Petersen and Paul Reilly and Finulla McCaul and Dan Barker and MOB and Eric Rowe and John Lawson and Philippa and I and a thousand others besides. (Showing proper respect for the nature of Glorantha and it's creator's vision, of course - in this particular case mediated and directed through the editorial support of David Hall, MOB and the Tales staff). I certainly intend to continue my exploration of Pamaltela in play and story and scenario and article (even if I do 'duck' home to my Ironspike clan in Northern Sartar every once in a while) and I will continue to base it on Chaosium guidelines and whenever possible run it past Greg before publication. But I'll use that material as a springboard for my imagination, not a barrier. Who knows, perhaps someday Pamaltela will be officially published, so we'll all have a common baseline to build upon. Even that will be a bare beginning, as long-time Sartar and Prax experts (or any issue of the Digest) will testify. Until such a time: look at Jolar in Tales #11, and whatever material Tales or the other RQ magazines might publish in the future. Explore, challenge your preconceptions, liberate your imagination's creative resources and most importantly, HAVE FUN. Who knows,if you REALLY want to, you might even come across a chaotic Illuminated Ulerian were-mountain. Or even some ducks (Sigh. Not enough ducks in my neck of the desert). Or something truly wonderful. Or Weird. So what do you think Sandy? John (insert clicks as appropriate) Hughes john.hughes@anu.edu.au BTW Sandy, the matrilineal kinship system detailed in Chaosium's Pamaltela material is so general as to be found in most parts of the world. It is unlikely to be Cheyenne: when that people abandoned farming and took to the buffalo plains in the C18 (as related in the tale of the culture hero /heroquester Sweet Medicine) their kinship system mutated and became very patrilineal. If Amerindian in inspiration, the original system would more likely be Hopi or Iroquois. And I certainly agree that the oasis, lineage, marriage taboos etc. are entirely original, and have no 'odour' of Africa at all. How could anyone be so deceived? :-). --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Tournament of Luck and Death Message-ID:Date: 15 Apr 94 08:03:31 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3651 Hi, for my upcoming Heortland-scenario (next Saturday) I need information about the Tournaments of Luck and Death, other than that published in RQ-Companion, Genertela Book and Glorantha Book. The Scenario will have Jar-eel's preparations to dismember the Pharaoh and assure that the Tournament of Luck and Death won't produce a new body as a central theme. I am assuming that Jar-eel's agents will have mapped and prepared the magical sites in the Holy Country of importance to the Pharaoh, and subtly induced disturbances so that the next Tournament (in 1616, the one that fails) won't result in any return of _a_ Pharaoh. I'm not yet certain about Nick Brooke's theory that Jar-eel intercepts the Pharaoh at the Year King sacrifice in Esrolia, but if so, when in the Gloranthan year would this rite be performed? Freezeday or Clayday, Fertility Week, Earth Season would be the high holy day/night of Esrola (either as Asrelia, Ernalda, or Grain Goddess), but I see this date more as a thanksgiving than as a day for a bloody rite. However, the sacrifice could be on Freezeday, and the wedding of the new Year king on Clayday. Ty Kora Tek's High Holy Day (IMHO the most probable deity to perform such a sacrifice) is held in the night from Clayday to Windsday in Illusion Week, Dark Season. Opinions? (There are two major campaigns before the disappearance of the Pharaoh - Greymane's raid on Esrolia, and the Wolf Pirates' raid on the Islands followed by their crushing victory over the Kethaelan navy. Both events are likely to have taken place in Fire Season, when the crop is yet on the field, and the seas are friendly.) But whatever happens to the Pharaoh (and his household, according to Genertela Book p.34) at this rite, there is a Tournament of Luck and Death after this event. Part of Jar-eel's success is to assure this Tournament's failure. (I blame her or other Lunar agents for the death of King Hend, current (1609-1617) King of Heortland, as well, but that is my personal opinion only. However, there are precedents: Carmania (Three Arrows of Light), Elkoi, Tarsh (Hon-eel), Sartar 1602, the Pharaoh...) -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: klaus@diku.dk Subject: Vadeli Message-ID: <199404151203.AA10718@rimfaxe.diku.dk> Date: 15 Apr 94 16:03:14 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3652 Who are these Vadeli that are often mentioned in these dailies? So far I have learned this: They are blue They are nasty They have something to do with some "missing caste" They are immortal They (or some of them?) are sorcerors Could someone tell some more about them? Where are they found? What are they doing? What is their culture like? Klaus O K --------------------- From: mmlab!cookec%max.mml.mmc.com@uunet.UU.NET (Chris Cooke) Subject: >100% Message-ID: <9404151356.AAwlsx01854@relay1.UU.NET> Date: 15 Apr 94 13:57:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3653 I recently came across an intersting point in an Email discussion. Is it true that in order for your skills % to exceed 100% you must be a Rune Lord or similar? I know there are skill limitations for certain people (like dex x 3 for combat skills). Is there a consensus on how this actually works? How would you fix an Elf with say 120% bow due to age and previous experience but who does not have all the minimums for Wood Lord. Would he still be able to exceed 100% in bow (or sword) ? -- /> Chris Cooke // (//////[O]>=========================================- \\ \> cookec@mml.mmc.com --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Pamaltela - Inspiration or Imitation? Message-ID: <01HB80YCTAAW936J38@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 16 Apr 94 10:00:27 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3654 G'day Devin Cutler opines: >I am extremely worried that Glorantha is becoming anthropologized. >By this I mean that given regions in Glorantha become essentially >transplanted Terran equivalents, to the detriment of the fantasy >feel of the game. >Pamaltela is quite obviously an amalgem of African and Australian >cultures. Sandy replies: > I agree with Devin a lot. > I can't speak for the weird Australian-oid material that has >been coming out recently, all about "skins" and "Left-Hand path", >etc. How closely is it based on Australian culture? The Aranjara stuff in Tales #11 is very loosely based on some elements of Australian aborigine culture - just like most of the other published cultures in Glorantha (eg. Sartarites are based on an anglo-saxon/celt/viking mix, Vormain on the samurai, the Ygg islands on the Vikings, Sandy's Fonrit on the Barbary coast, the Rokari on Medieval France etc.) Chaosium submission guidelines in the past have made such analogies. > But I feel, with Devin, that exactly adapting terrestrial >cultures to Glorantha (as seems to have been done with the Pamaltelan >"skins" material) is an error. I agree with Sandy and Devin that exact adaptions are not cool. Sandy, first you asked how closely the Aranjara are based on Australian aborigines, but later in your post you seem to assume that it is just an exact copy. Let me assure you that it isn't a direct rip-off at all. No doubt John Hughes (if he's keeping up the RQ Daily at the moment) can elucidate further on his sources of inspiration if you like. Sandy does call John's stuff weird. I agree, it is WEIRD, and that's what helps to make it so Gloranthan. My personal fave is his story "Aranjara Dreaming" which I think transcends the mere "fan" writing we've previously published, and gone into the realms of real literature. (By the way, the two women on the front cover are the characters in the story; John's concept of who's who is the exact opposite of who they're meant to be. But if you know John, that's the way he thinks...) I was knocked out by John's material, as was Greg who gave John the original inspiration. This is why I was moved to give so much of TALES #11 over to John's stuff, at the expense of material by other writers (for which I apologised in the editorial). However, Pamaltela is a big place, with room enough for everyone. Another Great Southern Land issue of TALES is planned for the future, in which we might focus on the coastal regions, or the Right Hand folk, or the elf forests, or maybe even Rahmuktara, WAY DOWN south... TALES has received quite a bit of comment about issue #11, almost all of it positive. So, what did you think of it Sandy? --------------------- From: mmlab!cookec%max.mml.mmc.com@uunet.UU.NET (Chris Cooke) Subject: Trickster Message-ID: <9404151405.AAwlsy04502@relay1.UU.NET> Date: 15 Apr 94 14:06:46 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3655 In GoG it states Trickster initiates are also Acolytes and as such recieve reusable divine magic BUT it doesn't list which. Is it just common divine? only Trickster divine spells? do they have to get other divine spells by initiating into other Cults(possibly associated only)? but have those reusable? (wouldn't that surpise other cult members?) Any clarification of the Trickster would be a big help. Also, what would his skills limitations be? dex x 3 (x5?) ? Also, it says Tricksters are not subject to (or protected by) the law. How would the general populace of Prax and Sartar view a "discovered" Trickster? Hunted? Ignored? Bounty Hunt? Jaxxo makes a wonderful jester but what if you Trickster is large(size18+) and has formidable combat skills? Thanks, -- /> Chris Cooke // (//////[O]>=========================================- \\ \> cookec@mml.mmc.com