From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 18 Apr 1994, part 4
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: gloranthan games
Message-ID: <9404170519.AA06482@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 16 Apr 94 17:19:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3680
John Hughes opines:
>Card games (with hand painted cards) are very very rare, and
>associated with Lunar decadence.
I'm not sure why. They were common enough in the Renaissance
(though more often hand-drawn than hand-painted), tho I have no idea
how common they were in the dark ages or ancient times. Also, let's
not forget the possibility of playing with mah-johngg like bits of
bone or ivory in the Asian fashion. I own a very playable Korean
"card" game -- the individual cards are extremely small and very
stiff and thick -- they can't really be shuffled at all. Presumably
it originated in ceramic or ivory tiles.
I accuse the "Left-Hand Path stuff" of being Australian in nature.
John replies:
>You were wrong in believing the Aranjara material to be any sort of
>direct analogue.
Okay. I was wrong.
At this point, John goes into an extremely lengthy and detailed
defense of his Pamaltelan material, largely because he perceives some
hostility to it on my own part.
>So what do you think Sandy?
Okay, here's what I think and why. Readers who dislike peeks
inside Sandy Petersen's mind should skip to the next section. There
is much wandering off the subject, for one thing.
For many years, Pamaltela was pretty much left up completely
to me, with some input from Greg, but not all that much. The material
compiled for Pamaltela (more recently than 8 years ago, by the way
John) was either my own work, or my own work slightly modified by
Greg. The Pamaltela that existed before I went to work on it was VERY
different. There were few or no humans, just elves, and the entire
continent was filled with jungle. Some traces of that ancient
Pamaltela exist in the current material (the insect people, for
instance). The coastal areas, north of the mountains, was a colossal
swamp (the vestiges of this survive only on the far east and west
coasts, where hardly anyone ever goes). 'Twas no Mother of Monsters.
The story of Elamle was vestigial (hmm -- I suppose it isn't
published anyway. I guess I'd better write it up for the Digest,
considering how important it is in the history of the northern
coasts). The slave land of Fonrit was not. Now, obviously if I had
had nothing to do with the project, and Greg had decided to work on a
Pamaltela book, the original stuff would still have been changed, and
many of the same or similar changes may have occurred. For instance,
Greg was looking for somewhere to put the Mother of Monsters, an idea
stolen from MASTERS OF LUCK AND DEATH. He may well have put it in
Pamaltela anyway, though possibly not right along the only part of
the coast that would have been pleasant w/o its presence (that was my
suggestion). Despite this fact, I was the editor/writer who was there
when the changes actually took place, and so naturally felt
proprietary about the material. Especially since, as it turned out,
it was the last professional Gloranthan writing I was to do before
leaving the paper roleplaying field for the more profitable, but less
fertile, nightmare pastures of the computer world.
When Greg and I work together, our relationship is largely
(though far from exclusively) one in which Greg comes up with
exceedingly cool ideas, and I then consider frantically how this
newest idea will fit into the world and background as it has already
formed, from the mass of his previous cool ideas. This was an
effective partnership, and led to many serendipitous discoveries in
two main styles. In Style A, Greg would come up with some lamebrained
idea and I, while cogitating on it, would suddenly realize that, if
what Greg said was true, then something else Exceedingly Cool would
stem from it. In Style B, I would point out to Greg that his former
idea led naturally and logically to a certain result, and he would be
inspired by that result to a second, and even cooler idea.
Though I love that form of cooperation, in Pamaltela, the
roles were reversed to some extent, and I was coming up with the
ideas. Well -- okay, I was also having to figure out the logical
conclusions to the ideas, too, with Greg taking the essential role of
constantly throwing me information and tidbits based on his
encyclopedia knowledge of primitive mythology, which I used as fodder
to determine the relationships and info. Also, occasionally Greg
would put his foot down and keep me from doing something that
offended his view of Glorantha -- like when he wouldn't let me make
any male-dominated cultures.
In addition, I ran an extremely long and exceedingly good RQ
campaign, most of which took place in Pamaltela. In fact, after that
campaign was forcibly closed down (because of my move to Baltimore),
I almost gave up roleplaying, feeling that I'd never duplicate the
joys I had experienced in the mutual creation that took place in that
strange African-oid place. And in fact, I never have. Though the
campaign I'm running now is pretty fun, and I have high hopes for it
in the future.
As a result of these passages in my life, I came to
half-consciously consider Pamaltela "mine". In addition, I am
emotionally attached to much of the culture, creatures, and landscape
I helped create, because these objects are associated with many years
of the best roleplaying (and, IMO, some of the best creative work)
I'd ever experienced. To a great extent, I consider Pamaltela more my
own creation than even Greg's (though obviously legally and even
logically this is not the case).
Okay. Now, five years later, I see reams of material on my
personal campaign background (TM), which doesn't look anything like
anything I'd ever thought of, and which, in my ignorance, I mistake
to be simple copying of Australian aboriginal material. My response:
Argh.
Given this, am I rational to subconsciously resent John's
Pamaltelan stuff?
NO.
Is it fair for me to dislike his stuff because he didn't
submit it to ME first, and subserviently ask my approval?
NO.
What is there not to like about John's stuff?
NOTHING.
But it will take me time to cotton to it.
MOB says:
>TALES has received quite a bit of comment about issue #11, almost
>all of it positive. So, what did you think of it Sandy?
I hated it intensely. I could not even read it all the way
through. In fact, my reaction was so strongly adverse that I have as
of yet not read it at all thoroughly -- the first TOTRM that I
haven't read intently cover-to-cover. Of course my reaction is
unjust. The fact is, I'm unable at this point to give the material a
fair evaluation, it's so heavily emotion-laden for me. Ask me again
in six months.
I guess, in my doubly-illogical ignorance, the only thing
that actually somewhat bothers me about the Left Hand/Right Hand
thing is the Skins, the kinship system. Here is why. The Doraddi
"kinship" system I designed is based on lineages named after plants.
The Lineages are complicated, but dominate all courting and sexual
relationships. I can't help but feel that the Left-Hand "skins"
should not be totally different from the Doraddi "lineages", if only
because any good Doraddi would need to know what the Left-Hander
lineage was before he could know how to court him.
Give me a hand, John. Maybe one or both of us can modify our
concept so that the Skin/Lineage dichotomy becomes compatible, and my
poor Doraddi can know what to do about the Left-Handers. Remember
that the Doraddi are friendly and curious about strangers, not
xenophobic at all.
>the matrilineal kinship system detailed in Chaosium's Pamaltela
>material is so general as to be found in most parts of the world.
The Doraddi Lineages are not based on anything found anywhere
in the real world. Their courtship habits (old folks/young folks) are
loosely based on a Cheyenne(?) custom. I am clueless as to what you
are referring when you talk about a "matrilineal kinship system". Do
you mean the fact that the husband lives in his mother-in-law's tent?
That's not Kinship, exactly. I don't think the Doraddi have kinship
in the European sense.
Klaus O.K.
>Who are these Vadeli that are often mentioned in these dailies?
>Could someone tell some more about them? Where are they found?
>What are they doing? What is their culture like?
Okay, here's some facts. In the Third Age, the Vadeli are a
seagoing folk with home bases in the Vadeli Isles (in the Neleomi
Sea), and smaller bases along the northern coast of Pamaltela. Their
trading ships can be found anywhere from Loskalm on south.
I'll put more stuff on their culture in a later Digest, if
there's interest, but to sum it up for roleplaying purposes -- they
are secretive about their culture, try to be pleasant to everyone,
and are perfectly willing to cheat a friend. Think of them as the
Phoenicians insofar as they fit into the world-oeuvre, and you won't
go far wrong. Except they're more magic and sinister than the
Phoenicians.
>So far I have learned this:
>They are blue
No living Vadeli is blue-skinned. All are either Brown, or
Red-skinned. They claim the Blues will be coming back soon.
>They are nasty.
This is a story spread by the Brithini, whom everyone agrees
are nasty, too. Probably the story's true to some extent. Certainly
the Vadeli tap with impunity.
>They have something to do with some "missing caste".
The Vadeli adhere to a Brithini-like caste system. The Browns
are "Farmers" (actually, Sailors, today). The Reds are "Warriors"
(mostly Sailors, too, now). The extinct Blues are "Nobles". All of
the Vadeli practice sorcery to an alarming extent. They have no
"sorcerer" caste, and this may be the missing caste you refer to. The
Vadeli are NOT Malkioni -- they are PRE-Malkioni.
>They are immortal
Very true. Unless they're killed.
>They (or some of them?) are sorcerors
All of them.
Chris Cooke asks:
>How would the general populace of Prax and Sartar view a
>"discovered" Trickster? Hunted? Ignored? Bounty?
Town drunk? Village idiot? Beggar-cum-Sneak Thief?
MOB takes me to task:
>Tsk, tsk, Sandy! If you want to stop discussion on a topic, you
>really should stop talking about it yourself in the same post!
Okay. Consider it done.
Au revoir, all. I won't be writing anything to the Digest for some
time to come.
Sandy
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From: davidc@cs.uwa.oz.au (David Cake)
Subject: Vadeli
Message-ID: <199404170834.QAA08678@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 17 Apr 94 08:35:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3681
Who are the mysterious Vadeli? An ocean going people, atheistic sorcerers, and
ancient rivals of the Brithini.
> They are blue
Only the Blue Vadeli are blue and they are now generally regarded as
extinct (a likely story ...). The Blue Vadeli where the nobles, the Red Vadeli
are warriors (quite frequently pirates), and the brown Vadeli are sailors,
and most of the other useful things.
> They are nasty
They are generally regarded as being rather amoral, and fairly ruthless.
> They have something to do with some "missing caste"
The Blue Vadeli.
> They are immortal
I was unaware of them being immortal.
> They (or some of them?) are sorcerors
The Vadeli, rather than having specialist sorcerers, practice sorcery
appropriate to their caste and duties. I generally take this to mean that even
Vadeli of what are assumed to be low ranked and unmagical occupations in other
cultures might be quite accomplished sorcerers within their specialty. It
would not be unusual to find an experienced carpenter with several sorcerous
manipulations, and stored power, and high sorcerous skills - but virtually
no spells that do not involve wood, for example. This means that their
warriors can be very dangerous, because they can be quite skilled
practitioners of combat sorcery.
Little is known of Vadeli philosophy (by me, anyway) - I would
appreciate some further explanation, particularly of the philosophical
differences between the Vadeli, and the Brithini (on the surface fairly
similar, though I expect the Vadeli place more emphasis on individual prowess
and merit).
Cheers
David Cake
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From: mmlab!cookec%max.mml.mmc.com@uunet.UU.NET (Chris Cooke)
Subject: Gagarthi
Message-ID: <9404171708.AAwmau24055@relay2.UU.NET>
Date: 17 Apr 94 17:08:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3682
I'm looking for information on tthe Gagarthi. Is there a cult writeup? I've
looked in GoG but I can't even find a reference. It seems to be a sizable
cult in Prax, does anyone have more information and how could I get it?
thanks,
--
/> Chris Cooke
//
(//////[O]>=========================================-
\\
\> cookec@mml.mmc.com
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 16 Apr 1994, part 1
Message-ID:
Date: 17 Apr 94 17:23:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3683
John Hughes in X-RQ-ID: 3669
Extremely nice piece on games. By now, we ought to have enough for a
series of digests...
> I hesitate to bring this up, but why does KOS refer to ducks as
> 'wereducks'? I daren't not think. Greg's persecution of this romantic,
> serious, and tragic people is relentless.
I think this is more harmless than you suspect. The prefix "were"
dos not indicate lycanthropy, but derivs from the Latin "vir", "man".
If durulz are called wereducks, it actually stresses that they have
something in common with men.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de