From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 19 Apr 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: The only good non-initiate. Message-ID: <9404181515.AA17710@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 18 Apr 94 15:15:12 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3699 De Nick Brooke: > Alex wrote: > > If failure in trying to join a cult, very likely in some circumstances, > > means immediate expulsion for the clan or tribe, this is a much more > > serious consequence. Normally with cults you can try again later, and > > don't suffer deleterious results in the meantime in any case. > Back in the Old Days, the initiation rites into Orlanth were *lethal* for > anyone who failed. Yeah, that's the ones every adolescent male had to pass > in order to become an adult. I'm aware of this, but I bet the failure rate wasn't 90% in the Good Old Days. Presumably the initiands were older, or the tests were `easier'. (Than the three skills from five test, that is.) It also makes more sense for failure to be initiated to entail inability to join the clan (say, due to being dead) in the more conservative clans, where membership of a particular cult is mandatory. > Don't come whinging to me about "deleterious > results" of failing initiation in this wimpish modern world... I'm disputing that they are that way: there's no real evidence (much less logic), after all. > Martin Crim in X-RQ-ID: 3559 > > Except that there were NO cults in Prax until the Pure Horse people came > > there. Remember, the PHP were successful because they had true divine magic. Where is this stated thusly? They may simply have had `better' magic. > > Sure, Urox was a part of the mythology of Prax, but there was no cult, just > > shamanism. Joerg: > How do you define a cult, when you say there weren't any in Prax? It seems likely to me that Waha has been worshipped since the Dawn, though one might say his worship began as a more shamanicly oriented cult than at present. This is only a difference of degree, though. > Yes, all these mythological figures which DO receive worship via other > cults are one of the reasons why I advocate initiation into a pantheon. This doesn't appear to me to be an argument in favour of pantheon worship as opposed to associate worship. As a general point, I don't think it's always the case that mythologically important figures receive much worship. The example of Ameratsu in Japan springs to mind. I'm not sure how far this is true in Glorantha, apart from Gods which are effectively unreachable by worship. > Right now I help myself with the one religion - many saints concept for > the Aeolian church. Heortland isn't an area I'm very familiar with, but your ideas for the religion are interesting, at any rate. My own suspicion would be that they're not as heavily Malkionised as this: the Henotheistic Church doubtless has something not unlike this structure. (To wit, having theistic entities as Saints.) > I would have let him pass as an adult, but not as a full member of > the clan. For one thing, he wouldn't have been included in the oath of > allegiance ceremony to Clan and Lord after the tests, for the other thing, > he would have remained lay member and not Associate Initiate member > of the Aeolian Church. If I ask what an Associate Initiate is, will I end up frothing at the mouth? > The day after the adulthood initiation the young men are members of > the Aeolian Church. They may have chosen a patron Saint/Deity and even > been tested in the appropriate skills, but they don't belong to that > patron's subcult until they have undergone the specific rites of this > cult on the appropriate holy day. At the risk of soundfing less dogmatic than usual, I would say this sort of cult structure (which is roughly what had been proposed by way of pantheon initiation) seems highly appropriate, for the kind of society and religion Joerg envisages in Heortland. But without the central importance of one deity, and the ancilliary status of the others, this structure would be (much, IMPO) less appropriate. For example, for the Old Time Polytheists of Sartar, say. > They are adults, nonetheless. I still wanna know why everyone is so convinced one can't become an adult without becoming (some kind of) religious initiation. Readings from the Collected Works of He Who Is Greg, citations of convincing earthly parallels (specifically _not_ cases where initiation need be to one specific deity), or even, if the worst comes to the worst, looking up the RQrules. > A Voriof initiate would be a boy who > has reached the age of school-boy, and is receiving tasks vital to the > community, although not difficult, like keeping the sheep. While I'm not going to contend one _has_ to be a shephard in order to worship Voriof, I believe the vast majority of his worshippers are, at least on an occasional basis. I dislike the idea of Voriof simply being a `generic stage' deity: I'm sure he has a distinct cult of his own. After all, Voria does, albeit a non-standard and wimpy one. > This stage of > Low initiation is not restricted to one deity only, though, and a > crafter's proto-apprentice would be considered a "Voriof initiate" as > expression of his age group in the pantheon, even if already an advanced > lay member of Gustbran. I disagree, vehemently, vociferously, and I've-gone-over-my-reasons-for- doing-so-ly. > The Voriof initiation doesn't count for adulthood, > but allows minor partaking in religious ceremonies, more so than a visiting > participant of a foreign religion could. I'd agree with this bit, though. > > "[...] You want to become a Sun-Domer? Never > > darken my door again, ex-son." > (And: Why "darken"? A Sun-Domer shines!) I bow to your superior pedantry. ;-) (This time!) > Subject: Me and Sandy That's "Sandy and I". ;-) ;-) ... ;-) Revenge is a dish best microwaved swiftly and scoffed before anyone else can do anything about it. > Sandy wonders about agreeing with me, and Alex titles a subject: > "Joerg slays Sandy." > Do I write this offensive? No, not at all: my subject line was purely in reference to you and Sandy carrying out a classic "Orlanth vs. Yelm" argument, which I have to confess had in fact pretty much fizzled out by the time I finally posted the above. While I'd say Joerg has what one might call a Vigorous writing style, possibly even Combative, he's not the only one in these here parts (ahem), and A Good Thing Too, say I. This list has been admirably devoid of free-form ad hominem flamage, and so long as it does, I think there's no harm in mildly heated debate. If I ever call Sandy a Nysalor-loving, fragment of Rakenveg's toenail fellow-traveller of the Predark, you can be sure it's necessary in the context of the discussion. [ \ %=/& <- Wakbothian smiley. ~ " Nor would I ever, say, attempt to use the recent discussion of sports such as cricket as an excuse to provoke some of our more Sassenach contributors in any way. [3-1, 503-4, Lara 320 no.] > While I attacked Sandy's picture of Yelm as the friendly beard in the Sky, > and disagreed with a few other statements of Sandy, I do agree with > most of Sandy's writing (all that I don't comment upon). Only not in > public, until now. You do? Heretic! Talk of the devil, > >I don't think joining an Orlanthi (say) cult other than one`s > >parents' is really any kind of `conversion' in our modern sense. > >After all, the cults are non-exclusive, unlike most earthly and all > >monotheistic religions And a Sandy is sure to appear: > Surely you jest. Isn't that my line? > Modern monotheism is not particularly > exclusive within the various groupings. The various Protestant faiths > are non-exclusive. Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, > Anglican/Episcopalians, etc. are tolerant of one another. I even know a Pentecostalist who talks to Roman Catholics. My point wasn't that they are (all) mutually hostile, but that they are _exclusive_: you don't do both simultaneously, while you can do with polytheistic religions. > Yet most 15 year old kids who go to church go to their > parents' church. If Dad and Mom are Presbyterians, the kids probably > are Presbyterians, too, though they may change later. Keep in mind > the parents being Presbyterian in our later discussions. An example close(ish) to mine own heart. > I see joining Issaries instead of Lhankor Mhy as being more > like attending the Free Will Baptist Church instead of the > Presbyterian one. I think these analogies are a little strained. After all, we're dealing with (ostensibly) compatible ways of worshipping different gods, not distinct ways of worshipping the same one. Hence there's more motivation to change religions, and (probably) less hassle. > Another logical way to look at it is lifestyles, rather than > as religion. If your kid becomes a Storm Bull, it's a little like him > becoming a member of a biker gang. Except that Uroxi have bulls, not hogs. I (have already) agree(d) that there are social pressures to stick to your parent's religion, in Glorantha and everywhere else. We can quibble about their exact magnitude. My contention is simply that there aren't likely to be sledgehammer-like mechansisms in most Orlanthi clans that would effectively refuse full membership of the clan because someone wished to join an otherwise- acceptable religion. > >Another possible fudge would be to say that if one has a parent in a > >"closely enough" (see previous hand-waving on this subject) > >associated cult, then this is good enough for a `free' initiation. > Or if your uncle or aunt or cousin was an initiate in the > proper cult, perhaps they could be your sponsor instead of your > parents. This is a Good Point(TM). Although one doesn't just need a sponsor, but also correct indoctrination beforehand. Perhaps this is yet another case for a sliding scale instead of one-thing-or-t'other rules, with differing degrees of difficulty of the initiation test depending on the degree of familiarity between cult and aspirant. > >Colour me morally relativistic, but I think speaking glibly of "bad > >gods" in any absolute sense makes no more sense on Glorantha than on > >Earth. > Alas, I'm no moral relativist. Most faiths on Earth proclaim > similar acts as "good", from Muslim to Judaism, to Jainism to Shinto. > [...] the big crimes of adultery, murder, theft, > are pretty much agreed upon by unrelated cultures across the world. Only in outline: Jainism's definition of murder barely resembles that of Shinto, and there are considerable differences between Islamic and (`Old Testament') Judaic notions of adultery. Mainly I'd quibble with the distinction between `common' and `absolute', were I to defend relativism at length, which you'll all be relieved to hear I'm not going to. > I think that most Gloranthan sects are similar, and that > Zorak Zoran (for instance), being a troll-designed cult, tends to > attract only the mightiest of assholes among humans for its cult > members. My principal point was that priests of all religions tend be be (very broadly) under similar severities of `moral' or behavioural restrictions. A ZZ Death Lord is hardly less restricted than a Rokari Wizard, just very differently so. Mind you, I suspect that Mighty Arsehole would probably be considered a generous compliment among Uzkind. I doubt they'd approve of the effete American alternate pronounciation, though. ;-P > >Another minor point: who/what are the denizens of the Yelmic Fifth > >Hell? Is it specifically trolls, undead, or both; or is it catch all > >for all the Really Bad things in hell, to wit anything not fitting > >the orderly Four Hells ruled by Lodril? > I vote for the last. The Fifth Hell is probably bigger than > the first Four put together. Makes sense. But it begs the question of who the Demons from the Fifth Hell in GRAY actually are. Undead, trolls, or Unnameable Others? Alex the Intemperate.