From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 21 Apr 1994, part 2
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From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se
Subject: Enlightened philosophy.
Message-ID: <9404201527.AA05828@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 20 Apr 94 22:38:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3730
OK, as promised (threatened?) very recently, I hereby bring you the musings
of one particular Riddler by the name of Stein. The following text is from
an appendix to a scenario, the main plot of which was Stein's attempts to
Illuminate the PCs. Credits: the "Stein philosophizes" section was written
by Dag Olausson and translated by yours truly, the "Notes for the GM" are
all my fault...
Stein philosophizes
"You have the right to kill me, but not the right to judge me. Who can say
what is right and what is wrong? Can you?"
"Will the gods tell you what is right or wrong? But the gods do not care
about human morality! All they want is your Power."
"Just look at the many different ways one god can be worshipped: are the
Orlanth cultists in Delela and Naskorion in agreement about what their
deity considers just?"
"There is no such thing as right or wrong. There is no objective good or
objective evil. What is evil? Tell me that!"
"Why is for instance Chaos evil?"
"Chaos stands for destruction and Law for construction. Both are needed in
the cosmos. In their inner being they are actually alike. What makes one
more good than the other?"
"Is death evil? Death is needed to let the living live. If nothing died
there would soon be no room for life."
"Destruction is necessary so that new things will have a place to grow.
Without destruction, the world would soon stagnate. Is this wrong?"
"Take light and darkness, same thing there. At heart, they are one and the
same. What do you see if you look into absolute Darkness? Nothing. What do
you see if you look into absolute Light? Nothing."
"You must be rid of your fright and your hatred. If you do not befriend
them, they become mighty enemies that will dominate your life. Why are you
afraid of Chaos?"
"To lose one's hatred is to become free. How can you be free when you let
hatred rule over you?"
"You kill for money or for your god or lord. Chaos kills because it is
forbidden. What is good or evil about any of these things?"
"If there is no good or evil, there is nothing that can be called sin
either. What is sin?"
"If there is no sin, then there is no guilt. They tell you that you should
not feel guilt unless you have sinned. So why should anyone feel guilt?"
"Chaos hates laws because it wants to feel free. But as no one can break
all laws at once, creatures of Chaos are constantly frustrated and feel an
abiding hatred of the laws they do not break. This hatred binds them as
much as those who follow Law. Therefore even they have to realize the
necessity of laws, or they can never be free of their all-consuming hatred.
Can anything be freer than a being with no hate, fear, guilt or prejudice?"
"Just as Law and Chaos must exist side by side, so must all other
'opposites'. If there were no grief, how could we distinguish joy? If there
were no pain, how would we notice pleasure?"
"Would you have anything worth saying as your last words?"
Notes for the GM: about Illumination
The more tangible effects of Illumination are immunity to all manner of
Detect Chaos/Law spells or skills, as well as cult Spirits of Reprisal. The
former is easily explained - since a Riddler in fact is not aligned with
either side, there is no reason for him/her to register as chaotic or
lawful - but the later is somewhat trickier. Stein provides the key in his
argument about guilt: when normal (unenlightened) cultists break a rule,
they are so deeply conditioned as to feel at least a subliminal twinge of
guilt, no matter how unrepentant they claim to be. This feeling, this
awareness of having done something _wrong_, is what the Spirits of Reprisal
home in on and in some way 'feed' on, generally being more effective
against those with low self-confidence (POW). As an Illuminate knows that
nothing you can do is really wrong in any metaphysical sense, the Spirits
are simply unable to find him/her.
It is often claimed that the 'cult' of Nysalor has a Dark Side and a Light
Side. The Dark Illuminates are those who use their knowledge as an excuse
to satisfy their base desires without regard for the consequences, while
those who follow the Light realize that if the structure of the world
doesn't provide a grounding for any ethics, then people will have to
provide it for themselves - morality is still necessary for human (or other
sentient) life, even if it can never be objectively 'true' or 'real'. This
description is accurate as far as it goes, but it's not the whole picture.
The widespread acceptance of these definitions is partly due to the efforts
of the Arkat cult (who regard themselves as the only genuine Light Siders,
any other Riddler must be Dark), partly the result of an inclination among
Gloranthans to fall back on dualism whenever in doubt. But in fact, many
Illuminates don't fit either mold: some seem to act entirely at random
(being barely distinguishable from Tricksters), some refuse to involve
themselves with the world at all, many choose a goal in life that can
hardly be described as either Light or Dark (Stein is one of these), and a
few are just insane - though whether insanity is a result or cause of
Illumination is moot (as is the question if Stein belongs in this category
as well). As any Riddler will tell you, there just aren't any simple
answers.
Whew. Enough of that, now.
David:
>Since Trickster temples are almost always only shrines, all they get is the
>Trickster-specific spell of that shrine. And Worship Trickster.
"Worship Trickster"?!? What's that? Rhetorical question - I'd say the lack
of bowing and scraping for some divine bully ("Dear Orlanth: oooohhh, you
are so big...") is a major draw for the trickster cults.
>>Also, it says Tricksters are not subject to (or protected by) the law. How
>>would the general populace of Prax and Sartar view a "discovered" Trickster?
>I suspect in most cultures it's more like "If you give me a Hotfoot, I'll
>kill you." Tricksters are outlaws, but as long as they stay amusing they
>could be tolerated. You just keep a careful eye on your chickens and your
>daughters.
Dead on. Couldn't agree more.
Joerg:
>Joerg mot Sverige?
Vadd} "mot"? Jag trodde vi var |verrens?
Alex:
>>>> Bolongo: the local trickster sect. He only provides a very few
>>>> spells, and his worshipers are pitied, but not necessarily tolerated.
>>> Does this follow the same pattern as `generic' (GoG) pattern of Trickster
>>> worship?
>> I'm not sure, off the top of my head, what source Alex is quoting from
> Neither am I. What quotation are you referring to?
Umm.. the first one, I think. About Bolongo. My ignorance is probably due
to my completely irrational and prejudiced attitude towards Pamaltela.
"I'm so bored I might as well be listening to Genesis."(Rick, The Young
Ones)
I have no justification for this view, except that any place where
tricksters get such a raw deal is too grim for my tastes.
>Actually, Murderer would fit perfectly well with Eurmal's relationship with >Death.
Only if you find me a quote where Eurmal actually _uses_ Death, instead of
just giving away franchises. I will admit that I have no basis for the
other aspects you mention, apart from my 'feel' for what a Eurmal trickster
would get up to.
>in any given locality, any given
>shrine will (almost) certainly be thought of as being dedicated to a
>_particular_ Trickster deity, not as being a Generic Trickster Shrine,
Absolutely. Have I said something to contradict this?
Joerg again:
>If Illusion was his main Rune, Eurmal would have a great illusionary
>cult hierarchy with lots of pompous offices.
OK, I've commented on this already, but I just thought of something else.
You seem to be equating Illusion with the normal, real-world word
"illusion", implying something unreal, a sham, a phantasm. But in
Glorantha, Illusion is a kind of reality - more specifically, it is the
power that creates something out of nothing. For Trickster, it is the
ability to pull whatever he likes out of his bag of tricks.
Jonas
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From: eco0kkn@cabell.vcu.edu (Kirsten K. Niemann)
Subject: Western Material
Message-ID: <9404201546.AA21906@cabell.vcu.edu>
Date: 20 Apr 94 15:46:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3731
Mike Dawson here, not Kirsten Niemann
Ed Wallman, wishing there was more info on the West, wrote:
"The only real interesting heresy is the Stygian heresy which is
described like all the rest in a paragraph here and there.
Again, my gripe might just be lack of material. But that is why I
am anxious to see in the TOTRM Malkioni issue. Just two issues off
so that would put its arrival date in June, 1999. :-)"
Codex #2 is almost entirely full of western material, including
Martin Crim's History of Fronelan Malkionism. And it is due out
around the end of the month.
I have lots of other western material, so issue 3, 4, etc will
probably all have something about the west in it. Maybe even some
stuff about how the various sects vary from each other.
----
Joerg wrote a really nice comparison of Gloranthan knights to their
possible earth analogs. This was very good, and highlighted how the
west is different from europe. Joerg, I want to talk to you about
putting this in a future issue in an expanded format.
Mike
--
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Gloranthophiles need to contact me at codexzine@aol.com
for information about Codex Magazine.
UK Gloranthophiles write to cphillips@blue.demon.co.uk
"Inquiries into the nature and secrets of Glorantha" .
------------------------------------------------------/_\
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From: gwdugan@mcs.drexel.edu (William Dugan)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 20 Apr 1994, part 4
Message-ID: <9404202004.AA22106@mcs.drexel.edu>
Date: 20 Apr 94 20:04:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3732
..
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From: argrath@aol.com
Subject: Feat, Effete, Ifrit
Message-ID: <9404201331.tn83214@aol.com>
Date: 20 Apr 94 17:31:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3733
Alex says:
> Mind you, I suspect that Mighty Arsehole would probably be
considered a
>generous compliment among Uzkind. I doubt they'd approve of the
effete
>American alternate pronounciation, though. ;-P
Effete? EFFETE?!? Bite your tongue, Scotty. It's us
Americans who talk the language in its most manliest form.
;-) (Actually, I think we pronounce "Asshole" the same, since
Brits (like New Englanders) don't seem to be able to pronounce
the letter r properly.)
Alex also says:
>> Martin Crim in X-RQ-ID: 3559
>> > Except that there were NO cults in Prax until the Pure Horse
people came
>> > there. Remember, the PHP were successful because they had
true divine >>magic.
> Where is this stated thusly? They may simply have had
`better' magic.
I already answered this, in X-RQ-ID: 3629. And Sandy agreed with
me, though he didn't catch the Pol Joni/PHP mix-up.
Re: Moral Relativism
Since this is the RQ Daily Bulletin, and not the Moral
Relativism Daily Bulletin, I too will avoid replying to Sandy at
length (especially since he has already said he will be unable to
participate for an indefinite period of time). Suffice it to say
that moral relativism does not mean "anything goes." It just
recognizes that, to make a moral decision about a belief system,
you ought to stand outside that system. And then what are you
standing on?
Answer: I have detached myself from detachment, master.
You CAN stand on your own system and evaluate it and others.
However, what you're saying then is, in effect, "My belief system
is consistent" (and who says consistency is important?) and "From
my point of view, the Aztecs were Mighty Assholes" (which is a
valid statement within its limitations).
All philosophies are castles in the air. Most are quite
explicit about their axioms. (I was going to write some stuff
flaming monotheism, but I don't want to offend folks. You figure
it out.)
Guy Robinson says:
>Western Cultures are underused as a Good Medieaval society
>except in the way that it can be used as foil for the Lunar
Empire
>who most people, but not everyone, uses as the protagonists for
their
>campiagns.
I'm surprised at the assumption that most people use Lunars
as protagonists. I've never had a Lunar PC or played a campaign
set in Peloria. The campaigns I know best have never taken a
Lunar turn. I ran a Lunar campaign once, for one adventure.
What are other persons' experiences and preferences for milieu?
--Martin
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From: argrath@aol.com
Subject: Aldryami sports
Message-ID: <9404202025.tn98457@aol.com>
Date: 21 Apr 94 00:25:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3734
Alex says:
> Naturally Aldryami don't play _competitive_ sports, as
>such... I'd imagine they indulged in co-operative or ritual
>activities, which look like (rather incomprehsible) sports when
>witnessed by outsiders.
Everything Aldryami do is religious in nature, or at least they
do not recognize the human distinction between the
mundane/profane and the divine. This goes along with (what one
person called) their eco-socialism. The Goddess is imminent. We
are the fingers of the Goddess. We have purpose, and that
purpose is divine. Meditate, and you will know the Will of the
Goddess...
(When I say things in this Highly Authoritative style, it means I have no
written authority to back it up and am basing it solely on my own
supposition.)
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From: sharp@craycos.com (Steven Sharp)
Subject: Humakt cult oddities
Message-ID: <9404210327.AA16758@copper>
Date: 21 Apr 94 03:27:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3735
One of the cult skills for Humakt is Conceal. I do not understand why. The
most obvious uses for the skill by a warrior are to conceal an ambush or to
conceal an assassination weapon. These are obviously discouraged for Humakti.
Any other use is at least at odds with the emphasis on honesty implied by the
geas about lying and the association with the truth rune. Could someone
enlighten me as to how this skill is appropriate for the cult?
The Berserk spell also seems out of place for Humakt. A Sword Trance similar
to the Axe Trance spell would have been more appropriate. The comments in the
Humakti issue of the TotRM suggested a "one-use, but not attacking friends"
variation to emulate a Death Song type spell, which would be reasonable also.
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From: hebert@uclink.berkeley.edu (Brian Hebert)
Subject: The Zax
Message-ID:
Date: 20 Apr 94 14:23:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3736
I just got Tales 11 and enjoyed the letter by Steve Gilham suggesting
a possible source of Greg Stafford's inspiration (the poetry of
Edward Lear). I'm happy to contribute another possible literary source
-- Dr. Seuss!
A couple of years ago I was reading to my daughter from "The Sneetches &
Other Stories" when I came across "The Zax", which begins:
"One day, making tracks
In the prairie of Prax,
Came a North-Going Zax
And a South-Going Zax."
:)
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