From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 22 Apr 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Outlaw Tricksters Message-ID: <199404210732.AA27486@radiomail.net> Date: 21 Apr 94 07:32:46 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3737 I thank Roderick for the description of shinty. Is that more or less the game that Cuchulainn played? Jonas said >The bit about their outlaw >status often seems to be a mere formality (if actions against you can't be >punished, this makes your own 'immunity' pretty pointless). I think the important thing about Tricksters being outlaws is not so much the Trickster but his clan being protected/prevented. Normally, if I kill someone, my whole clan is subject to blood vengeance (at least in Iceland this often happened -- after all, I'm a killer, so you probably don't want to mess with me, you'll kill my brother to get vengeance for your brother). On the other hand, if you do kill me, my clan can take vengeance against you. Since a Trickster is an outlaw, he can do anything he wants without getting his clan involved. On the other hand, when he gets into trouble, they have no legal right to bail him out or take vengeance. --------------------- From: jdegon@vega.iii.com (Jim DeGon) Subject: Thanatar Message-ID: <9404210752.AA23207@enrico> Date: 20 Apr 94 17:52:17 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3738 Who killed Tien? Was it Hrothmir, son of Storm Bull or was it the Black Sun? It seems that there are two versions of the story of Tien's severing and the defeat of his chaos army after they devoured Genert. Also, why would either of these forces be stronger than Genert and his followers? Jim DeGon --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Pamaltelan Bibliography Message-ID: <01HBG32EFGZA938879@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 22 Apr 94 04:29:50 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3739 G'day Everyone, Nigel - johnston@heart.enet.dec.com (Groove Requiem..) writes: >Some Pamaltela info HAS been published elsewhere:> [short listing follows...] The list supplied by Nigel is a start, but less than complete. Here's a complete bibliography of all things Pamaltelan in print. Compiled for Tales #11 by Troy Bankert, but unfortunately cut due to lack of space: RuneQuest II Borderlands: Referee Handbook (18-22) The Agimori RuneQuest II (7) Map: World RuneQuest Companion (9) Jonstown Compendium (22-23) The Holy Country TrollPak II: Uz Lore Book (35) History TrollPak II: Book of Uz (22) The Cult of Gorrakki (45) New Troll Types RuneQuest III Elder Secrets: Elder Races Book (15-19) The Mostali (26-31, 35-43) The Aldryami (26-31, 35-43, The Uz 54, 60-66) Elder Secrets: Secrets Book (7-8, 11, 13) Mysteries of Glorantha (18) Secrets of Dragonkind (30-31) Horrors and Terrors (44-47) The Sky (48-50) Gloranthan Weather (loose) Map: Elder Races distribution Genertela: Genertela Book (83) Seshnela Genertela: Glorantha Book (6-7) Map: World (14) Six Worlds of Glorantha (15-29) World History (30-32) Time (33-35) Languages Gloranthan Bestiary (2, et. al.) Maps: Species distribution (2-3) Introduction (9) Gods and Goddesses (entries) Baluchithere, Charnjibber, Elf (Green, Yellow), Gargoyle, Gray Giant, Goblin (Slorifing), Gorger, Grue, Gulper, Hoolar, Hoon, Hydra, Jelmre, Lucan, Midget Slasher, Myrmidon, Nightrider, Nightstalker, Orveltor, Rascullu, Sabretooth Cat, Scythanni, Slarge, Succubus, Timinit, Titanothere, Troll (Jungle, Mountain), Waertagi, Watchwere. Gods of Glorantha: Cults Book (6-12) Mythos and Religion (8-9) Map: World (16) Pamalt Pantheon (20) Allied Spirits (entries) Grain Goddesses, Horned Man, Hunter (Rasout), Hykim - Mikyh (Sofal), Lodril, Maran Gor, Pamalt, Trickster, Uleria. Gods of Glorantha: Prosopaedia (entries) Aleshmara, Annilla, Aranea, Artmal, Bolongo, Cronisper the Wise, Dehore, Faranar, Gark the Calm, Grain Goddesses, Gustbran, Hykim - Mikyh, Jmijie, Keraun, the Lambsabi, Lodril, the Lowfires, Mahome, Maran Gor, Noruma, Nyanka, OldGods, Ompalam, Pamalt, Plant Brothers, Rasout, Selarn, Seseine, Sikkanos, Trickster, Uleria, Vangono, Vovisibor, Yanmorla. Gods of Glorantha: The Priests Say (handout) The Chieftain Speaks River of Cradles (27-29) The Agimori RuneQuest III: Glorantha Book (6-8) Introduction, inc. world map (9-11) Mythos and History (12-15) Magic and Religion (17,20) The Cult of Ernalda (21) Map: Elder Races distribution Troll Gods (5-11) Cult of Annilla (12-16) Cult of Aranea (37) Cult of Gorakiki (54-56) Cult of Moorgarki (180-187) Cult Availability (loose) Map: Troll Distribution TrollPak III: Book of Uz (5-7, 12-14) Character Generation (15) Troll Monsters TrollPak III: Uz Lore (35) History Magazines Breakout #34 (7,9,44) Umathela, inc. map Heroes #6 (36-39) Land of Fonrit, inc. map (12-36) Scenario: The Big Hit Tales of the Reaching Moon #6 (12-14) The Cult of Maran Gor Tales of the Reaching Moon #8 (20) Prophecies of the Hero Wars White Wolf #16 (28) The Cult of Yelm White Wolf #20 (18-24) The Cult of Lodril Wyrms Footnotes #4 (12-14) Geography Wyrms Footnotes #5 (33) Map: Extent of the God Learners Wyrms Footnotes #12 (12-14) The Agimori, inc. map Book King of Sartar (17) Map: Argrath's route (21,38) Argrath's Saga (179) The Argrath Book ...and of course, just about all of TALES #11! Tales of the Reaching Moon #11 (Pamaltela Special) (4) Welcome to Pamaltela: The Great Southern Land (4) The Power Rune (5-9) "Blood is Stronger Than Death" - kinship in Glorantha (Genertelan Orlanthi and Pamaltelan Doraddi models) (9,54) Notes From Nochet - all entries on Pamaltelan topics (10) Origins of Kinship: Doraddi Myth (11-14) Land of Jolar, inc. map (14) Box: The Kresh (14) Water Gourds (Noruma's Gift) (15-18) Cult of Pamalt (19-20) Gods of Pamaltela - from GoG Prosopedia Listings (20-22) Sons of the Totem, Daughters of the Dream: worship of Pamalt among the Aranjara (23-26) Aranjara Dreaming - story (27,30) Pamaltela: A Visitor's Guide, inc. SIZ comparison map - Pamaltela & Europe (28-29) Map of Pamaltela (31-37) Scenario: Veldt Trek (36) Box: Keraun and the Charngibber - A Kresh Tale (38-48) Scenario: Three Women Dancing Dreaming (39) Box: Mimi (nature spirits) (54) Box: A Gloranthan Dichotomy - Orlanthi Genertela vs Doraddi Pamaltela (55) Pamaltelan Population Statistics As far as I know this is the lot. If there's anything else to add, let me know! I intend to feature the list in the someday-down-the-track "Return to Pamaltela" issue, though this might be some time in the next century! Cheers MOB --------------------- From: jdegon@vega.iii.com (Jim DeGon) Subject: Bliss in Ignorance Message-ID: <9404210835.AA24175@enrico> Date: 20 Apr 94 18:35:32 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3740 From reading the description of the land of Bliss in Ignorance, it would seem to be a rather bizarre place. What with many immortal intelligent spectres being created by the Black Sun's priests, detect life might be necessary spell to pursue daily activities. Otherwise the inhabitants might just give up on distinguishing reality altogether. Truly a reason to call the place "Bliss in Ignorance"! Alternatively, many of the spectres could be rather bizzare of appearance if the creators mixed organs together. Then you might find dog-faced men and fish with feet walking around doing whatever spectres wish do. Presumably since they are not really alive they cannot be affected physically, but they could choose to interact with whomever they wished. I would guess that the inhabitants ignore obvious spectres. Do spectres with self-will go mad when they are ignored by everyone? Perhaps they can determine their own appearance to some extent. Mythologically the place stands between light and darkness, between order and disorder. There might be many more tricksters hanging about than in other lands though. What might the Yongy-Bongy-Bo be like? (The creature called Y.B.B.) It certainly sounds like a presumptuous title, and the taste of Dr. Suess would require that everyone around this individual speak in rhyme. I would guess the Y.B.B. is a prophet. Perhaps with a status like the Dalai Lama. It's (it's surely not a human) entourage would resemble a train of Gypsy wagons with everyone be-decked in the most vividly colorful clothing (magically enhanced dontcha know) and accompanied by wild drumming, horns and dancing. Suddenly the Y.B.B. raises a hand and a hush falls over his gathering to allow it to pronounce some ludricrous Dr. Suess sounding prophecies, which the people pay his entourage to interpret for them. Perhaps part of the show is a group of performing spectres -- real entertainment! This land is clearly the place for goofy creatures like jabberwock, chon-chons, and possibly the random (literally) boggle to hang out. How is Bliss in Ignorance affected by Godunya's empire? It is a hardship post for one of the Exarches, who supposedly receives benefits from community worship like in other places. Perhaps the Exarch has a group of lackeys which go around dispelling the Spectres (bummer!). These sort of illusions are not good for Imperial order and peace and prosperity and order after all. It certainly must be less well ordered than the rest of the Godunya's empire however. There are Nomad _and_ Trolls living on the border. This would allow more breathing room for Hsunchen in some areas. Someone on the list brought up the idea for Penguin Hsunchen. They would definitely live here. Anyone else have any thoughts about the land of Ignorance? Jim DeGon --------------------- From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland) Subject: Re: TEST, PLS IGNORE Message-ID: <9404211056.AA05563@aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM> Date: 21 Apr 94 14:58:24 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3741 guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org: > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 94 00:32:48 > Subject: TEST, PLS IGNORE > To: news@aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM > > I know this says to ignore the message, but I couldn't. Sorry about my pathetic > lack of self control ;) > You, and some 30 others... --------------------- From: gkca16@udcf.gla.ac.uk (S.Phillips) Subject: fostering Message-ID: <8310.199404211243@rockall.cent.gla.ac.uk> Date: 21 Apr 94 14:43:15 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3742 Hi from Sam Phillips DDUNHAM: >I was all set to borrow some of the fostering tables from Pagan Shore to >use in Sartar, but didn't see any references in King of Sartar to the >practice of sending your kids as foster children to another family. Do the >Sartarites (Orlanthi) do this? I'm sure there is mention of fostering somewhere in KoS, though not in this form. I don't have it with me unfortunately. One of my brave young Orlanthi is a triplet and as such was taken by the clan chief and fostered as his own. Sartarian cheifs demand one of any triplet born. Do sorcery practicing cultures take the 7th son of a 7th son? Cheers! Sam x. Not Scotland But Sartar. --------------------- From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069) Subject: Humakt cult oddities Message-ID: <01HBFJBMC7RK9I5FYD@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com> Date: 21 Apr 94 07:00:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3743 Could not a Humakti use Conceal to hide something besides himself? Yes, Humakt is a Death god, but he is also a god of honor and the keeping of oaths. He could use this skill to hide/protect his charges, or to hide cult artifacts from heathen desecrators. Scott --------------------- From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller) Subject: Legalities Message-ID: <01HBFLBN210O8WXSF0@wharton.upenn.edu> Date: 21 Apr 94 05:10:55 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3744 Martin Crim writes: > Seriously, though, having the fuzz arrive is an anachronism, > and anachronisms really irk me in RPGs and fantasy fiction. I agree. The only worse anachronism I've seen in RQ games is the war-on-some-drugs. I always felt that the "cops and jails and fair trials oh my" model of legal systems was WRONG for most fantasy campaigns, but at the same time had trouble coming up with an alternate legal system that would be effective in maintaining some modicum of order in the face of player character rough-housing. > I got into a looooong discussion of this on-line once before, so > I'm not going to get deep into it again. Please do get into it again. I don't remember anything on this forum about it, and you're hardly likely to find a more receptive audience of roleplayers for historically accurate preconception-busting than RQ players. > Suffice it to say that > "the watch" ought to stop fires and riots; the way to deal with > an on-going crime (in areas analogous to Europe) is to raise the > hue and cry, after which all able-bodied men are legally required > to aid in apprehending the criminal and bringing him to the > sheriff; prisons were rare in the ancient world, and justice > swift (shoot, Delaware was caning people into the 20th century > because they didn't want to build prisons!) I gotta run, but I'd like to see more discussion of this. I'd be able to contribute my ideas about Carmanian justice, though I'd need to write them all down first. whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu "Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu Subject: Those Darn Malkioni Message-ID: <9404211543.AA00971@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 21 Apr 94 15:43:04 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3745 David Cake writes: > Part of the problem most people have with Malkioni is that they are >seen as analogous to the Church in Mediaeval Europe, their religion is seen as >more like current Earthly religious practices, and thus seen as basically less I tend (nowadays) to see them as MUCH more like the ancient schools of philosophy, which nearly took off into being 'religions'. The sort of thing the Malkioni think about seems to be more like the classical philosophers' subjects than Christian ones. I am waiting for some feedback on this before spending a lot of time developing the schools, but I think this is the way to go. The Brithini, for example, are caricature Epicureans. The Neoplatonists even use the term 'Invisible God'. Etc. Comments on individual points of David's: >For example the Galvosti allow the Tapping of >non-Malkioni - but why? Perhaps they believe that non-Malkioni are not human? Umm... do other Malkioni allow the tapping of non-Humans? I think the Sedalpists do, but the 'mainstream' Genertelan churches of Rokar and Hrestol don't. Here are two doctrines that don't allow Tapping: Church # 1. Immanent IG (similar to a Stoical doctrine) The Invisible God is not separate from the Universe - he is the pattern or order to the Universe, pervading everything. Tapping is drawing on the power of Chaos to break down his Order- it is a direct injury to the God. Church #2. Transcendent IG (sim. to Neoplatonist) Those heretics! The idea that a mere mortal could harm the Infinite God. Horrible. However, he has created the World and Tapping does harm the World. Therefore, it is evil to Tap. Church #3 The Evil One created the material world, however He could not create Life. The Invisible God gave each living creature a portion of the Divine; it is heretical to extinguish this through Tapping. Now some that allow Tapping, usually in a limited way: Church #4 The Evil One created the material world, including all the animals and plants; however He could not create Mind, which is the Prime Good. The Invisible God gave each sapient creature a portion of the Divine; it is this which endows them with Reason and Conscience. Therefore, Tapping a sapient (which extinguishes this divine spark) is evil. Church #5 (Boristi) Tapping breaks down the Order of the Universe and is against the Will of the Creator; therefore it is only permissible to Tap those creatures whose origin is from Outside the Creator's World. Etc., etc. More another time, paul --------------------- From: WALLMAN@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (Close friend of Little Elvis) Subject: malkioni sects Message-ID: <01HBFMQAZEPU004RIK@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU> Date: 21 Apr 94 05:39:20 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3746 I griped: >> Yes, but here is my gripe about Malkioni sects. Some comparisons: >>[...] >> MALKIONI PEASANT: Why are the Galvosti evil? >> MALKIONI WIZARD: Their wizards tap non-Malkioni. These wizards make >> up less than 5% of population, you probably will never meet one, and >> they don't really tap our people, but they are EVIL! PURE EVIL! Joerg replys: >You phrased this extremely lamely. About like this: >ORLANTHI FARMER: Why are the illuminates evil? >ORLANTHI PRIEST: They don't hurry to kill chaos. These illuminates make >up less than 5% of the Empire's population, so you'll probably never >meet one, and they won't really iluminate you, but they are EVIL! PURE >EVIL! >You'd get a less than enthusiastic response. >Whereas: >ROKARI SERF: Why is the Hrestoli sect evil? >ROKARI WIZARD: They don't know their station in life, and their souls >won't reach solace because of the terrible sins of envy and ambition. >Never fall in the traps of their glib oratory, only the man who knows >his station in this world will know his station in Solace! I'll respond because of the lame comment ;-). I gave two concrete examples (Yelmalio vs. Uz and Orlanthi vs. Lunar) of how Gloranthan religions almost always have vivid (and sometimes even visible) mythological reasons for being enemies. I still say Malkioni sects pale in comparison. Your Orlanthi vs. Illumination example is true, but since all Red Moon worshippers are illuminated, the proof for the Storm Voice's argument against illuminates is hanging in the sky (where only Orlanth should be). Your Rokari vs. Hrestoli example is a good example of how the Malkioni sect conflicts are based on words. I would give a less than enthusiastic response to a sermon on my "station in life". Who was it that suggested monotheism is a scam? Maybe I should join their sect. Your mention of some things makes it sound like you have more source material than me. Your mention of upcoming Malkioni stuff sounds great. So I promise to stop whining. Ed Praxians do it Wallman@vax2.winona.msus.edu on their Altecameli --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: Illumination and Relativism Message-ID:Date: 21 Apr 94 17:34:09 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3747 Greg Fried here. Martin: While I agree, obviously, that this is not the Moral Relativism Daily Bulletin, I think it is equally obvious that the issue of relativism has direct relevance for Glorantha, as someone's (sorry -- forget who! -- was it you even, Martin?!) excellent synopsis of a Illuminate Riddler's questions shows in the same issue of the Daily. You write that moral relativism does not mean that "anything goes", just that it recognizes that all moral belief systems and philosphies are "castles in the air". Relativism asks, how can one judge any such system without stepping outside of one's own, "and then what are you standing on?" Each belief system is grounded on axioms which are themselves grounded on NOTHING. Not a bad summary of relativism (though I hope I summarized YOU fairly!). Also not a bad way to think about a Gloranthan Illuminate. And since many of us use Glorantha as a way to think about RW questions, I see this as a legitimate RQ Daily issue. Frankly, I can't see how YOU reach the conclusion from your own argumentation that relativism does NOT mean anything goes. You say that the assertion that the Aztecs were "mighty assholes" is a "valid statement within its limitations." I take it, you mean it is "valid" as a "statement" in the sense of formal logic, and that the "limitations" which condition this validity are the axioms of the moral belief system by which we judge the Aztecs. Fair enough. But as you say, this moral system has its limitations if we are to agree with the insight of relativism (read Illumination?) -- the judgment about the Aztecs (or the broos, or the crimson bat, etc) is ultimately INVALID from the perspective of relativism, for relativism cannot accept the axioms by which the judgment is made, since it sees these axioms as themselves ultimately UNGROUNDED. Hence, relativism has no grounds of its own to stand on to say that it does NOT imply that anything goes. Finally, I would say that not ALL philosophy need be about establishing and defending axioms, though I won't go overboard on that here! Don't want to try your patience with potentially un-Daily ruminations. -- GF out.