Bell Digest v940422p1

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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 22 Apr 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Outlaw Tricksters
Message-ID: <199404210732.AA27486@radiomail.net>
Date: 21 Apr 94 07:32:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3737

I thank Roderick for the description of shinty. Is that more or less the
game that Cuchulainn played?

Jonas said
>The bit about their outlaw
>status often seems to be a mere formality (if actions against you can't be
>punished, this makes your own 'immunity' pretty pointless).

I think the important thing about Tricksters being outlaws is not so much
the Trickster but his clan being protected/prevented. Normally, if I kill
someone, my whole clan is subject to blood vengeance (at least in Iceland
this often happened -- after all, I'm a killer, so you probably don't want
to mess with me, you'll kill my brother to get vengeance for your brother).
On the other hand, if you do kill me, my clan can take vengeance against
you.

Since a Trickster is an outlaw, he can do anything he wants without getting
his clan involved. On the other hand, when he gets into trouble, they have
no legal right to bail him out or take vengeance.


---------------------

From: jdegon@vega.iii.com (Jim DeGon)
Subject: Thanatar
Message-ID: <9404210752.AA23207@enrico>
Date: 20 Apr 94 17:52:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3738

Who killed Tien?

Was it Hrothmir, son of Storm Bull or was it the Black Sun?

It seems that there are two versions of the story of Tien's
severing and the defeat of his chaos army after they devoured Genert.

Also, why would either of these forces be stronger than Genert and his
followers?

Jim DeGon

---------------------

From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Pamaltelan Bibliography
Message-ID: <01HBG32EFGZA938879@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 22 Apr 94 04:29:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3739

G'day Everyone,

Nigel - johnston@heart.enet.dec.com (Groove Requiem..) writes:

>Some Pamaltela info HAS been published elsewhere:>
[short listing follows...]

The list supplied by Nigel is a start, but less than complete.  Here's a 
complete bibliography of all things Pamaltelan in print.  Compiled for
Tales #11 by Troy Bankert, but unfortunately cut due to lack of space:


RuneQuest II
Borderlands: Referee Handbook
(18-22)	The Agimori

RuneQuest II
(7)	Map: World

RuneQuest Companion 
(9)	Jonstown Compendium
(22-23)	The Holy Country

TrollPak II: Uz Lore Book 
(35)	History

TrollPak II: Book of Uz 
(22)	The Cult of Gorrakki
(45)	New Troll Types

RuneQuest III
Elder Secrets: Elder Races Book
(15-19)	The Mostali
(26-31, 35-43)	The Aldryami
(26-31, 35-43, 	The Uz
54, 60-66)

Elder Secrets: Secrets Book
(7-8, 11, 13)	Mysteries of Glorantha
(18)	Secrets of Dragonkind
(30-31)	Horrors and Terrors
(44-47)	The Sky
(48-50)	Gloranthan Weather
(loose)	Map: Elder Races distribution

Genertela: Genertela Book
(83)	Seshnela

Genertela: Glorantha Book
(6-7)	Map: World
(14)	Six Worlds of Glorantha
(15-29)	World History
(30-32)	Time
(33-35)	Languages

Gloranthan Bestiary
(2, et. al.)	Maps: Species distribution
(2-3)	Introduction
(9)	Gods and Goddesses
(entries)	Baluchithere, Charnjibber, Elf (Green, Yellow), Gargoyle, 
Gray Giant, Goblin (Slorifing), Gorger, Grue, Gulper, Hoolar, Hoon, 
Hydra, Jelmre, Lucan, Midget Slasher, Myrmidon, Nightrider, 
Nightstalker, Orveltor, Rascullu, Sabretooth Cat, Scythanni, 
Slarge, Succubus, Timinit, Titanothere, Troll (Jungle, Mountain), 
Waertagi, Watchwere.

Gods of Glorantha: Cults Book
(6-12)	Mythos and Religion
(8-9)	Map: World
(16)	Pamalt Pantheon
(20)	Allied Spirits
(entries)	Grain Goddesses, Horned Man, Hunter (Rasout), Hykim - 
Mikyh (Sofal), Lodril, Maran Gor, Pamalt, Trickster, Uleria.

Gods of Glorantha: Prosopaedia
(entries)	Aleshmara, Annilla, Aranea, Artmal, Bolongo, Cronisper the 
Wise, Dehore, Faranar, Gark the Calm, Grain Goddesses, Gustbran, Hykim - 
Mikyh, Jmijie, Keraun, the Lambsabi, Lodril, the Lowfires, Mahome, Maran 
Gor, Noruma, Nyanka, OldGods, Ompalam, Pamalt, Plant Brothers, Rasout, 
Selarn, Seseine, Sikkanos, 	Trickster, Uleria, Vangono, Vovisibor, 
Yanmorla.

Gods of Glorantha:  The Priests Say (handout)	The Chieftain Speaks

River of Cradles
(27-29)	The Agimori

RuneQuest III: Glorantha Book
(6-8)	Introduction, inc. world map
(9-11)	Mythos and History
(12-15)	Magic and Religion
(17,20)	The Cult of Ernalda
(21)	Map: Elder Races distribution

Troll Gods
(5-11)	Cult of Annilla
(12-16)	Cult of Aranea
(37)	Cult of Gorakiki
(54-56)	Cult of Moorgarki
(180-187)	Cult Availability
(loose)	Map: Troll Distribution

TrollPak III: Book of Uz
(5-7,  12-14)	Character Generation
(15)	Troll Monsters

TrollPak III: Uz Lore
(35)	History

Magazines
Breakout #34
(7,9,44)	Umathela, inc. map

Heroes #6
(36-39)	Land of Fonrit, inc. map
(12-36)	Scenario: The Big Hit

Tales of the Reaching Moon #6
(12-14)	The Cult of Maran Gor

Tales of the Reaching Moon #8
(20)	Prophecies of the Hero Wars

White Wolf #16
(28)	The Cult of Yelm

White Wolf #20
(18-24)	The Cult of Lodril

Wyrms Footnotes #4
(12-14)	Geography

Wyrms Footnotes #5
(33)	Map: Extent of the God Learners	
Wyrms Footnotes #12 
(12-14)	The Agimori, inc. map

Book
King of Sartar
(17)	Map: Argrath's route
(21,38)	Argrath's Saga
(179)	The Argrath Book


...and of course, just about all of TALES #11!

Tales of the Reaching Moon #11 (Pamaltela Special)

(4)  Welcome to Pamaltela: The Great Southern Land
(4)  The Power Rune
(5-9)  "Blood is Stronger Than Death" - kinship in Glorantha 
(Genertelan Orlanthi and Pamaltelan Doraddi models)
(9,54)  Notes From Nochet - all entries on Pamaltelan topics
(10)  Origins of Kinship: Doraddi Myth
(11-14)  Land of Jolar, inc. map
(14)  Box: The Kresh
(14)  Water Gourds (Noruma's Gift)
(15-18)  Cult of Pamalt
(19-20)  Gods of Pamaltela - from GoG Prosopedia Listings
(20-22)  Sons of the Totem, Daughters of the Dream: worship of Pamalt among 
the Aranjara
(23-26)  Aranjara Dreaming - story
(27,30)  Pamaltela: A Visitor's Guide, inc. SIZ comparison map - Pamaltela 
& Europe
(28-29)  Map of Pamaltela
(31-37)  Scenario: Veldt Trek
(36)  Box: Keraun and the Charngibber - A Kresh Tale
(38-48)  Scenario: Three Women Dancing Dreaming
(39)  Box: Mimi (nature spirits)
(54)  Box: A Gloranthan Dichotomy - Orlanthi Genertela vs Doraddi Pamaltela
(55)  Pamaltelan Population Statistics


As far as I know this is the lot.  If there's anything else to add, let me
know!  I intend to feature the list in the someday-down-the-track "Return
to Pamaltela" issue, though this might be some time in the next century!

Cheers

MOB

---------------------

From: jdegon@vega.iii.com (Jim DeGon)
Subject: Bliss in Ignorance
Message-ID: <9404210835.AA24175@enrico>
Date: 20 Apr 94 18:35:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3740

From reading the description of the land of Bliss in Ignorance, it would
seem to be a rather bizarre place.  What with many immortal intelligent
spectres being created by the Black Sun's priests, detect life might be
necessary spell to pursue daily activities. Otherwise the inhabitants
might just give up on distinguishing reality altogether.  Truly a reason to
call the place "Bliss in Ignorance"!

Alternatively, many of the spectres could be rather bizzare of
appearance if the creators mixed organs together. 
Then you might find dog-faced men and fish with feet walking around doing
whatever spectres wish do.  Presumably since they are not really alive
they cannot be affected physically, but they could choose to interact
with whomever they wished.  I would guess that the inhabitants ignore
obvious spectres.  Do spectres with self-will go mad when they are
ignored by everyone?  Perhaps they can determine their own appearance to
some extent.

Mythologically the place stands between light and darkness, between order
and disorder.  There might be many more tricksters hanging about than in
other lands though.

What might the Yongy-Bongy-Bo be like? (The creature called Y.B.B.)
It certainly sounds like a presumptuous title, and the taste of Dr. Suess
would require that everyone around this individual speak in rhyme.  I would
guess the Y.B.B. is a prophet.  Perhaps with a status like the Dalai Lama.
It's (it's surely not a human) entourage would resemble a train of Gypsy
wagons with everyone be-decked in the  most vividly colorful
clothing (magically enhanced dontcha know) and accompanied by wild
drumming,
horns and dancing.  Suddenly the Y.B.B. raises a hand and a hush falls over
his gathering to allow it to pronounce some ludricrous Dr. Suess sounding
prophecies, which the people pay his entourage to interpret for them.
Perhaps part of the show is a group of performing spectres -- real
entertainment!

This land is clearly the place for goofy creatures like jabberwock,
chon-chons, and possibly the random (literally) boggle to hang out.

How is Bliss in Ignorance affected by Godunya's empire?  It is a hardship
post for one of the Exarches, who supposedly receives benefits from
community worship like in other places.  Perhaps the Exarch has a group of
lackeys which go around dispelling the Spectres (bummer!).  These sort of
illusions are not good for Imperial order and peace and prosperity and
order after all.  It certainly must be less well ordered than the rest of
the Godunya's empire however.  There are Nomad _and_ Trolls living on the
border.  This would allow more breathing room for Hsunchen in some areas.
Someone on the list brought up the idea for Penguin Hsunchen.  They would
definitely live here.

Anyone else have any thoughts about the land of Ignorance?

Jim DeGon

---------------------

From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: TEST, PLS IGNORE
Message-ID: <9404211056.AA05563@aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 21 Apr 94 14:58:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3741

guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org:
> Date: Thu, 21 Apr 94 00:32:48 
> Subject: TEST, PLS IGNORE
> To: news@aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM
> 
> I know this says to ignore the message, but I couldn't. Sorry about my pathetic
> lack of self control ;)
> 

You, and some 30 others...

---------------------

From: gkca16@udcf.gla.ac.uk (S.Phillips)
Subject: fostering
Message-ID: <8310.199404211243@rockall.cent.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 21 Apr 94 14:43:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3742

Hi from Sam Phillips

DDUNHAM:
>I was all set to borrow some of the fostering tables from Pagan Shore to
>use in Sartar, but didn't see any references in King of Sartar to the
>practice of sending your kids as foster children to another family. Do the
>Sartarites (Orlanthi) do this?

I'm sure there is mention of fostering somewhere in KoS, though not in this 
form. I don't have it with me unfortunately. One of my brave young Orlanthi
is a triplet and as such was taken by the clan chief and fostered as his own.
Sartarian cheifs demand one of any triplet born.

Do sorcery practicing cultures take the 7th son of a 7th son?

Cheers! Sam x.
Not Scotland But Sartar.

---------------------

From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069)
Subject: Humakt cult oddities
Message-ID: <01HBFJBMC7RK9I5FYD@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 21 Apr 94 07:00:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3743

Could not a Humakti use Conceal to hide something besides himself?  
Yes, Humakt is a Death god, but he is also a god of honor and the 
keeping of oaths.  He could use this skill to hide/protect his 
charges, or to hide cult artifacts from heathen desecrators.


Scott


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From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Legalities
Message-ID: <01HBFLBN210O8WXSF0@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 21 Apr 94 05:10:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3744

Martin Crim writes:
>      Seriously, though, having the fuzz arrive is an anachronism,
> and anachronisms really irk me in RPGs and fantasy fiction.

I agree. The only worse anachronism I've seen in RQ games is the
war-on-some-drugs. I always felt that the "cops and jails and fair
trials oh my" model of legal systems was WRONG for most fantasy
campaigns, but at the same time had trouble coming up with an
alternate legal system that would be effective in maintaining some
modicum of order in the face of player character rough-housing. 

> I got into a looooong discussion of this on-line once before, so
> I'm not going to get deep into it again.

Please do get into it again. I don't remember anything on this forum
about it, and you're hardly likely to find a more receptive audience
of roleplayers for historically accurate preconception-busting than RQ
players.

> Suffice it to say that
> "the watch" ought to stop fires and riots; the way to deal with
> an on-going crime (in areas analogous to Europe) is to raise the
> hue and cry, after which all able-bodied men are legally required
> to aid in apprehending the criminal and bringing him to the
> sheriff; prisons were rare in the ancient world, and justice
> swift (shoot, Delaware was caning people into the 20th century
> because they didn't want to build prisons!)

I gotta run, but I'd like to see more discussion of this. I'd be able
to contribute my ideas about Carmanian justice, though I'd need to
write them all down first.


whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller            internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work."        -- Ross Perot sound bite

---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Those Darn Malkioni
Message-ID: <9404211543.AA00971@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 21 Apr 94 15:43:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3745

David Cake writes:

>	Part of the problem most people have with Malkioni is that they are
>seen as analogous to the Church in Mediaeval Europe, their religion is seen as
>more like current Earthly religious practices, and thus seen as basically less

  I tend (nowadays) to see them as MUCH more like the ancient schools of
philosophy, which nearly took off into being 'religions'.  The sort of thing
the Malkioni think about seems to be more like the classical philosophers'
subjects than Christian ones.

  I am waiting for some feedback on this before spending a lot of
time developing the schools, but I think this is the way to go.  The
Brithini, for example, are caricature Epicureans.  The Neoplatonists
even use the term 'Invisible God'.  Etc.

  Comments on individual points of David's:

>For example the Galvosti allow the Tapping of 
>non-Malkioni - but why? Perhaps they believe that non-Malkioni are not human?

  Umm... do other Malkioni allow the tapping of non-Humans?  I think the
Sedalpists do, but the 'mainstream' Genertelan churches of Rokar and
Hrestol don't.

  Here are two doctrines that don't allow Tapping:

Church # 1.  Immanent IG (similar to a Stoical doctrine)

  The Invisible God is not separate from the Universe - he is the pattern
or order to the Universe, pervading everything.  Tapping is drawing on the
power of Chaos to break down his Order- it is a direct injury to the God.

Church #2.  Transcendent IG (sim. to Neoplatonist)

  Those heretics!  The idea that a mere mortal could harm the Infinite
God.  Horrible.  However, he has created the World and Tapping does harm the
World.  Therefore, it is evil to Tap.

Church #3
  The Evil One created the material world, however He could not create Life.
The Invisible God gave each living creature a portion of the Divine; it
is heretical to extinguish this through Tapping.
  

  Now some that allow Tapping, usually in a limited way:

Church #4
  The Evil One created the material world, including all the animals and
plants; however He could not create Mind, which is the Prime Good.
The Invisible God gave each sapient creature a portion of the Divine; it
is this which endows them with Reason and Conscience.  Therefore, Tapping
a sapient (which extinguishes this divine spark) is evil.

Church #5 (Boristi)

  Tapping breaks down the Order of the Universe and is against the Will of the
Creator; therefore it is only permissible to Tap those creatures whose
origin is from Outside the Creator's World.

  Etc., etc.

  More another time,
paul

---------------------

From: WALLMAN@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (Close friend of Little Elvis)
Subject: malkioni sects
Message-ID: <01HBFMQAZEPU004RIK@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU>
Date: 21 Apr 94 05:39:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3746

I griped:

>> Yes, but here is my gripe about Malkioni sects.  Some comparisons:
>>[...]
>> MALKIONI PEASANT:  Why are the Galvosti evil?   
>> MALKIONI WIZARD: Their wizards tap non-Malkioni.  These wizards make
>> up less than 5% of population, you probably will never meet one, and
>> they don't really tap our people, but they are EVIL!  PURE EVIL!

Joerg replys:

>You phrased this extremely lamely. About like this:

>ORLANTHI FARMER: Why are the illuminates evil?

>ORLANTHI PRIEST: They don't hurry to kill chaos. These illuminates make 
>up less than 5% of the Empire's population, so you'll probably never 
>meet one, and they won't really iluminate you, but they are EVIL! PURE 
>EVIL!

>You'd get a less than enthusiastic response.

>Whereas:

>ROKARI SERF: Why is the Hrestoli sect evil?

>ROKARI WIZARD: They don't know their station in life, and their souls 
>won't reach solace because of the terrible sins of envy and ambition. 
>Never fall in the traps of their glib oratory, only the man who knows 
>his station in this world will know his station in Solace!

I'll respond because of the lame comment ;-).  I gave two concrete examples 
(Yelmalio vs. Uz and Orlanthi vs. Lunar) of how Gloranthan religions almost 
always have vivid (and sometimes even visible) mythological reasons for 
being enemies.  I still say Malkioni sects pale in comparison.  

Your Orlanthi vs. Illumination example is true, but since all Red Moon 
worshippers are illuminated, the proof for the Storm Voice's argument 
against illuminates is hanging in the sky (where only Orlanth should be).

Your Rokari vs. Hrestoli example is a good example of how the Malkioni sect 
conflicts are based on words.  I would give a less than enthusiastic 
response to a sermon on my "station in life".  Who was it that suggested 
monotheism is a scam?  Maybe I should join their sect.  

Your mention of some things makes it sound like you have more source 
material than me.  Your mention of upcoming Malkioni stuff sounds great.
So I promise to stop whining.  

Ed							Praxians do it
Wallman@vax2.winona.msus.edu				on their Altecameli

---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Illumination and Relativism
Message-ID: 
Date: 21 Apr 94 17:34:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3747

Greg Fried here.

Martin:
While I agree, obviously, that this is not the Moral Relativism Daily
Bulletin, I think it is equally obvious that the issue of relativism has
direct relevance for Glorantha, as someone's (sorry -- forget who! -- was it
you even, Martin?!) excellent synopsis of a Illuminate Riddler's questions
shows in the same issue of the Daily.

You write that moral relativism does not mean that "anything goes", just that
it recognizes that all moral belief systems and philosphies are "castles in
the air". Relativism asks, how can one judge any such system without stepping
outside of one's own, "and then what are you standing on?"  Each belief
system is grounded on axioms which are themselves grounded on NOTHING.

Not a bad summary of relativism (though I hope I summarized YOU
fairly!).  Also not a bad way to think about a Gloranthan Illuminate.
And since many of us use Glorantha as a way to think about RW
questions, I see this as a legitimate RQ Daily issue.

Frankly, I can't see how YOU reach the conclusion from your own
argumentation that relativism does NOT mean anything goes. You say
that the assertion that the Aztecs were "mighty assholes" is a "valid
statement within its limitations." I take it, you mean it is "valid"
as a "statement" in the sense of formal logic, and that the
"limitations" which condition this validity are the axioms of the
moral belief system by which we judge the Aztecs. Fair enough. But as you say,
this moral system has its limitations if we are to agree with the
insight of relativism (read Illumination?) -- the judgment about the
Aztecs (or the broos, or the crimson bat, etc) is ultimately INVALID
from the perspective of relativism, for relativism cannot accept the
axioms by which the judgment is made, since it sees these axioms as themselves
ultimately UNGROUNDED.  Hence, relativism has no grounds of its own to
stand on to say that it does NOT imply that anything goes.

Finally, I would say that not ALL philosophy need be about
establishing and defending axioms, though I won't go overboard on that
here!  Don't want to try your patience with potentially un-Daily ruminations.

-- GF out.