From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 22 Apr 1994, part 3
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From: john.hughes@anu.edu.au (John P Hughes)
Subject: Initiation, bits
Message-ID: <9404220142.AA24933@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 22 Apr 94 16:42:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3754
I'm off like a krashkid at a Stormbull temple bash...
RE: INITIATION, CULTURAL OR OTHERWISE
WHAT EXACTLY IS INITIATION?
My main point being, its not primarily a test, but a change in the
way you look at the world.
Humans seem biologically programmed to learn certain things at
certain times - language is the strongest example. Human cultures
make use of the psychological and physiological changes of
puberty to impress upon their young a set of lessons and values.
This we call initiation. Initiation is a way of cutting someone off
from one set of attitudes (childhood dependency, ignorance, self-
centred pleasure, stagnation) and substituting another set in their
place (adult selfdom, gnosis, conscious social will, growth). It tears
apart one reality and replaces it with another. It is SYMBOLIC
REBIRTH. Initiation rituals make use of fear, pain, hunger, thirst,
exhaustion, isolation, ecstasy and transcendence to impart their
lesson.
My first point is that (in terran cultures at least) initiation is not a
test of skill except in the most rudimentary way. One's courage
and patience may be tested, but not one's jumping or weapons
skills. (You'll be expected to be reasonably fit and to be able to
handle a weapon in some fashion - but you won't be considered
for initiation until AFTER you can do all that). Remember
initiandes will have been preparing for years, and the entire
village will have been watching very carefully. Courage and
dedication count for almost everything, skill levels very little.
(Major exception: hunting/gathering societies where if you can't
hunt or gather enough to feed yourself, then you won't survive.
But here the test is 'scrounge by yourself in the desert for a
week', not spear 50% check, jump 50% check etc).
My second point is that initiation (sometimes quite literally)
scares or sears a new way of thinking, a new set of symbolic
orientations (religious or moral ideas) into your head. Because of
this, religious symbols ALWAYS take their part, whether or not
the initiation is overtly cultic. (Our own society is one of the few
on either world where one can realistically separate religion and
community).
What I'm suggesting is that rather than a test of skills - the
explicit game model - initiation is primarily a kind of self-
transforming heroquest. In my own thinking three of the twelve
major types of heroquest (those of the INNOCENT, ORPHAN, and
SEEKER) occur almost exclusively during childhood and initiation,
while that of the WARRIOR must lay its foundation there. And if
there's one lesson that comes out of heroquest, its that dice rolls
and skill tests CAN'T recreate the experience.
Initiation is dangerous, and sometimes deadly. I believe it must
be tailored by the MLD to the individual storytelling and
transformative needs of questers. Initiation should strip them
down to their core, and will begin their reintegration. It should
release their adult personalities, both the noble and ignoble sides.
And it should align them absolutely with the values of their
people/cult.
Some netters have argued that you can be an adult without being
initiated. I believe the opposite, that the uninitiated (or those
initiated 'elsewhere'), whatever their status, cannot be completely
trusted, for their loyalty and devotion to the clan can only be skin
deep. Initiation literally scars that loyalty onto the depths of your
soul. Hence the almost universal distrust of strangers and
foreigners in the tribal world.
(If I wanted to be electronically incinerated, I'd suggest that
initiation tells us that we have to LEARN to be human, and that
we have to ACTIVELY CONSTRUCT a 'reality' from the infinitude of
possibilities that surround us (this we call 'culture'). Those who
have lost true initiation (i.e. us) - it went the way of the extended
family - either create their own (the street gang model) or wade
through life buffeted by meanings and loyalties, unanchored and
relatively adrift. However, I want to stick to the direct
implications of the topic so I won't mention it :-).
So... the 'non-abstracted interpreted-interaction heroquest-
transformation low initiate pantheon initiation' faction? Am I a
party of one?
GODLEARNERS & PROTESTANTS
Joerg said:
^ The God Learners with their large scale
^ experiments are unparalleled on Earth (except for a few small
scale
^ Jesuit experiments in South America).
And China. I would have thought the entire rise of European
Protestant rationalism, with its techo-industrial ethic, its abolition
of the magic and pagan elements of Catholicism, it's philosophical
and empirical traditions, it's expansionary/colonising ethic and its
subversion of traditional beliefs (including - with the rise of
historical bible scholarship and form criticism - it's own) was a
pretty good take-off of the entire GL trip.
'Cept of course Protestants said reality was absolute, and its OUT
THERE, while the GLs said its fluid, and its IN HERE.
JOERGISH BITS
Thanks for the reminder about 'were' ducks Joerg. Wheww.
And your list of Rokari Seshnel all-in-the family roleplaying
suggestions was BRILL. Up there with "Argrath & the Devil" and
the RQIII 'Dropped Oil Lamp Table' (:-)) for maximum ideas per
square centimetre. The more I play, the more I'm convinced that
family/community/clan based play is the way to go, rather than
lone adventurers out for themselves and their god. In fact for
Heroquest, I think clan-based is the only way to go. (I'm writing
some TOTRM column stuff on this right now). Your list has been
taped to the inside cover of my campaign book, even though I'm
an Orlanthi Far Pointer. Great Stuff.
RELIGION - THE ETERNAL FLAME
WARNING: MAINLY NON-GLORANTHAN RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION
FOLLOWS
Sandy said
> I consider this thread closed unless you can find me an
> example of a large-scale religion that thinks it's good to rob and
> kill on an everyday basis, w/o special permission from God.
Just a few years ago tens of thousands (some estimates 250,000)
innocent men, women and children were murdered by citizens of
the United States, mostly in a painful and horrific (though
mercifully quick) manner. The murders occurred under the
express orders of the US legislature. Those who committed the
killings represented a cross-section of most of America's major
religious traditions, though there were some exceptions. American
tv crews covering the mass-murder were ignored and finally
fired by their network employees. Yet apart from the Quakers, I
know of not ONE single American religious body to have spoken
up against the murder (though organisations of concerned
individuals from many of these bodies have, and I thank them).
The murders occurred in Iraq, and the killings (the results of
'surgical' bombing raids- masterly propaganda that) occurred
because one US-sponsored henchman (Hussein) turned against his
old masters and threatened America's cheap oil supplies.
Now Christianity, Judaism and Islam all have theological notions
of what constitutes a 'just war', and in this case the necessary
preconditions were NOT fulfilled. Most nations have codes of
conduct (and in most cases legislation) relating to the protection
of civilians in wartime, not to mention having signed the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Now this example was chosen only to illustrate a general principle
- I could use examples from most other major world powers fairly
easily. My point is that this entire religion/morality discussion
seems to run aground because:
a) it believes humans think rationally, and therefore cannot hold
two contradictory ideas at the same time.
b) it ignores the difficulty we all have in separating what's good
for our selves/family/community/nation (our what we are told is
good for us) from what's good for everyone, and therefore
MORAL. Oh for the smug simplicity of historical and moral
hindsight...
c) it ignores the way simplistic moral formulations fail to deal
with the profound ENVIRONMENTAL causes and limits of human
behaviour (e.g. is infanticide murder when an extra mouth might
mean death for a whole family? Is it the profound lack of salt in
their diet that leads to Yanomamo aggression, rather than their
religion - or perhaps the effects of colonial predation and
missionisation? Can ANYONE tell the absolute truth, and live with
the pain and suffering this would cause, even though every major
moral system has injunctions against lying? etc etc. See alt.skeptic
or alt.atheist or any of the more honest religious newsgroups for
examples ad infinitum ad nauseum).
Now moralists have been struggling with these questions for
thousands of years, and the jury is still out. Me, I'm concerned
with the seriousness of these issues, obviously, but suspect we
aren't going to make much headway with them. Flame Off?
(tendency for throwaway line curtailed by delicacy of entire
situation).
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From: argrath@aol.com
Subject: The Light of the Dark Side
Message-ID: <9404212252.tn31093@aol.com>
Date: 22 Apr 94 02:52:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3755
Re: Stein Illumination
IMHO, the Socratic method works better at exposing the
inconsistencies and lack of grounding in people's beliefs. I got
a lot of this in law school, but the professors always stopped
after you had successfully argued back to first principles. But
why do we have first principles? Why do we value consistency?
Why am I asking so many questions?
Re: Discovered Tricksters
Greg Stafford's answer appears in the booklet coming from David
Cheng (flogged in X-RQ-ID: 3689). It is not much like those
proposed here. In short, a trickster needs a powerful patron to
keep people from lynching him.
jonas says (BTW, these multiple >>>'s get very confusing.
Wouldn't quote marks be easier?):
"Only if you find me a quote where Eurmal actually _uses_
Death, instead of just giving away franchises. I will admit
that I have no basis for the other aspects you mention,
apart from my 'feel' for what a Eurmal trickster would get
up to."
At the risk of irritating people by referring to non-published
sources, let me point out that some expansion of the "murderer"
aspect exists in print, and one day may be published. But, if
you look at page 71 of GoG, you'll see "Strike (Murderer
aspect)." And on page 70, "a murderer" is listed as one of his
"shapes."
Re: Malkioni as analogues of Christianity or Islam
Consider:
ANCIENT CHRISTIANITY MALKIONI EARLY ISLAM
Theology:
Trinity (some say all single high god single high god
equal, others not)
Central figure represents:
incarnation prophet prophet
Legal teaching:
reaction to old law new law given new law given
Important role-models:
saints saints saints (Shi'a only)
Cause of internal divisions:
heresies heresies dispute over
succession to
caliphate
Teachings about What the World Is About:
messianic non-messianic non-messianic
millenarian non-millenarian somewhat millenarian
salvation from sin laws from God laws from God
church/state relations:
separate unity unity
Martyrs?
many maybe few
Reaction to Visible Gods:
Adopt some as saints, Same as Xian Reject
condemn rest
Attitude toward the world:
In but not of In and of In and of
Central rites:
Eucharist, baptism, ??? fasting, pilgrimage,
marriage, unction, prayer 5 times/day,
ordination, penance, alms, confession of
confirmation, etc. faith
Dietary prohibitions:
no meat on Fridays ??? pork, alcohol, blood,
anything which dies of
itself, 4-footed
predators with canine
teeth, birds of prey with
talons, asses, mules,
ravens, bustards, etc.
I see as much similarity between Malkionism and Islam as between
Malkionism and Christianity.
BTW, there is a little-known schism (nay, RANKEST HERESY) in the
stodgy old Presbyterian church these days. Seems that some
members of the church have added a new deity to the religion, by
name of Sophia. She represents the feminine dimension of the
divine, I guess--I don't have full details. (Really, I'm not
making this up--I couldn't have come up with something so
simultaneously mundane and shocking.) It's like something out of
Credo!, where you can end up with a Sol Invictus creed.
"There is but one god,
and he is the sun god,
Ra! Ra! Ra!"
--Martin
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From: Aden_Steinke@ms-gw.uow.edu.au (Aden Steinke)
Subject: Lunars as Protagonists
Message-ID: <199404220509.PAA13486@wyrm.cc.uow.edu.au>
Date: 23 Apr 94 02:00:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3756
Martin says:
>I'm supprised at the assumption that most people use Lunars as protagonists.
>I've never had a Lunar PC or played a campaign set in Peloria. The campaigns
I
>know best have never taken a Lunar turn. I ran a Lunar campaign once, for one
>adventure. What are other persons' experiences and preferences for milieu?
I agree, in the 12 or so years (I think) that we have been playing RuneQuest
here in Wollongong, our current campaign (set in 1623 in Prax/Sartar) is the
first with Lunars as a major feature. My character in this is a Dara Happan
merchant.
All of our previous RQ campaigns have been in Pavis / Prax / Balazar but set
slightly earlier than this, so players have been followers of Humakt, Yelm,
Yelmalio, Black Fang, Daka Fal, the Orlanth panthion, Pavis, Zorak Zoran,
Aldrya and Zola Fel, but not of Lunar cults such as 7 mothers and Etyries. We
have had Duck, Troll, Aldryami, Agimori and Baboon player characters but no New
Pelorians.
Now that I am playing, and enjoying playing, a civilised person from a literate
civilisation, for once, it is most terrible that Greg Stafford has released KoS
with it's huge umpires fudges bringing down the Lunar Empire, so my character -
if the campaign goes as long as our last one, 6 or 7 real years, 20 or 30 game
years - will have little real incentive to progress as a Lunar unless we depart
from the time line rather markedly.
The gaming is different, even though we are in basically the same part of the
world, since as Lunar citizens we cannot just go around committing banditry and
tomb robbing in the pursuit of the twin gods of experience rolls and wealth.B-)
Aden
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