From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 25 Apr 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: rune@ace.com (Rune)
Subject: New RQ-related APA
Message-ID: <9404210634.0.UUL1.3#25274@ace.com>
Date: 21 Apr 94 11:34:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3778
I hope that no one is offended by the following; if so, my
apologies. This message has also been posted on the RQIV playtest list.
Just a short announcement that a new roleplaying amateur press
association has been started. It's called _Interregnum_, and it includes
a fair amount of RuneQuest material. Several folk who post here and on
the playtest list have zines in the first issue.
We're seeking contributors and subscribers. RuneQuest material
would be particularly welcome, though the entire spectrum of roleplaying
is covered.
Readers of this list may acquire copies of _Interregnum_ #1 for
free (until my supply runs out) by sending an SASE at least 10 x 12"
large with $1.67 postage affixed. Please email me for further info.
-->Pete
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maranci / 81 Washington St., #2 / Malden, Massachusetts 02148
Editor, _Interregnum_ RPG Amateur Press Association -- email for info.
Captain, Bozztown Bashers--Champion Trollball team of RuneQuest Con '94!
---------------------
From: jpolk@opus.starlab.csc.com (James Polk)
Subject: Accents
Message-ID: <9404231415.AA25440@opus.starlab.csc.com>
Date: 23 Apr 94 14:15:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3779
Due to work, work-related convensions and house-moving, I have been
unable to craft replies on games and the nature of the universe.
Please feel threatened when I say that such replies will be
forthcoming. :-)
Nevertheless, I felt absolutely _impelled_ to draft this brief
reply to Martin Crim on the topic of accents. (After all, how could
I miss a chance to attack his flippant comment? So please take the
following with a big .)
Martin said:
"...since Brits (like New Englanders) don't seem to be able to
pronounce the letter r properly..."
Gee, Martin, do you know how many different people you attacked?
I believe the RQ Daily has already heard from the Scottish
representative. But it apparently falls to me to mention the
outrage of West Country English folk. You want r's? Try visiting
the southwest of England. (New England American English has its roots
in the East of England.)
Really, I am surprised an apparently cultured person such as yourself
could believe there is "a" British accent. You must have listened to
too much BBC radio.
By the way, folks, why does it fall to a half-and-hahf Anglo American
to set this barbaros straight? Are Scots the only articulate people
with pride on that island?
Garrgh!
- James
---------------------
From: argrath@aol.com
Subject: Salvation Fuzz
Message-ID: <9404231225.tn79183@aol.com>
Date: 23 Apr 94 16:25:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3780
Joerg says:
"feudal jurisdiction (including the Praxian tribes)"
I don't think so, somehow. Sure, Praxians have nobles,
unlike Plains Indians, but feudalism is a system of land tenure,
and the Praxians are nomads. By definition, then, what the
Praxians do is not feudal. And in flavor, it's nothing like
feudalism. There's nothing I'm aware of to suggest that the
Praxians have a hierarchy of nobility, from dukes and earls and
barons down through knights to free men and serfs. The concept
of reciprocal obligation, whereby nobles owe the duty of defense
to commoners, and commoners owe a duty of obedience to nobles, is not limited
to feudalism.
He goes on to talk about "some version of folkmoot or thing where
selected people not directly involved decide on the case."
Well, actually, in much of history, Germanic law provided
for people who DID have knowledge of the case to decide on it.
Early Saxon law provided for a jury of knights with knowledge of
the case to decide it. It's only relatively late in history that
you get the concept of a neutral arbiter.
Scott says: "If someone hears a village/town resident crying for
help when the PCs are laying waste to him, the villagers are
going to gang up on the PCs. Should the PCs escape, the
villagers may well hunt them down."
Yes, I think this is essentially what I said. What part did
you not agree with?
And let me add another point: since nobles and other rulers
are essentially protection rackets with an air of legitimacy
(whatever that is), anything which smacks of an attempt to take
turf will bring out the nobles' bully-boys. In places like
Adari, anyone making a show of force is a potential threat to
Ofnili, and gets a "friendly visit" at some point. If the PCs
were shaking someone down, Ofnili's boys demand their share.
"Taxes. Pay up." "How much?" "How much you got?" So the
response depends on the ruler's assessment of the stability of
his regime and the threat which the action poses to it.
In Sun County, they don't like strangers. They also don't
like their own folks stepping out of place. But when my PC's
patrol of militia slaughtered half a town and sold the other half
into slavery, we were able to justify our actions as in keeping
with our authority. There ARE better role-playing possibilities
when the PCs are part of the power structure.
Paul adds some stuff about Roman and Greek quasi-police. All
those years of Latin class, studying Roman culture, and they
forgot to mention that. ;-) I'd love to see the source for this
information. It would have obvious application to areas under
the Lunar boot. But I really don't think it'll look much like a
911 call (that's the emergency number, for you furriners).
I just hope the source isn't "Asterix." (Joke)
Paul says, apropos the hue and cry, "this sounds alot more
medieval than ancient, if you don't mind my saying so."
Heck, say what you like. I freely admit I don't know how
far back the hue and cry goes, but in Britain it does go to pre-
Norman times, at least. Projecting it onto to the late
Celtic/early Saxon analogue of the Orlanthi is a bit problematic.
I'd have less trouble with it in Western-flavored countries than
in Sartar. In Sartar, I would've expected a person to go to his
kin and get up a posse to demand reparations. But KoS talks
about a much more sophisticated legal system.
In any case, shouting "thief" in a market is usually
sufficient to bring out the vigilante in every bystander. Still
works in China, where the practice seems to go back to Confucian
times, thus having no point of common origin with Western Real
World legal systems.
Paul then adds, apropos Roman law, "In England and thus the US,
this blended with the Anglo-Saxon common law to produce a strange
mongrel."
There's very little Roman law in English law, and most of it
came in through canon law. In Louisiana, Texas, New Mexico,
Arizona, California, and a couple other states, there's a good
bit of Roman law through Spain and France. Canon law obviously
holds a lot of potential to be mined for Malkioni church law.
Until the late middle ages, the church courts enforced contracts,
because a breach of contract was a breach of an oath, which
offended God.
"I'm going to call the police."
"Shouldn't you call the church?"
"Call the church police."
"...All right. [shouts] THE CHURCH POLICE."
--Martin ("There's Another Dead Bishop on the Landing") Crim
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Other People's Gods; Pendragon magic
Message-ID: <199404231746.AA26602@radiomail.net>
Date: 23 Apr 94 17:46:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3781
Just went to a Battlefield Band concert; "Bad Moon Rising" played on the
bagpipes certainly seemed like a Sartarite song...
Bryan J. Maloney asked
>Is the worship of Zeus identical to the worship of Tiwaz?
>Is the worship of Jupiter identical to the non-worship of Dyaus?
>
>You are basically claiming that all deities of a particular aspect are
>just one deity. This is obviously a God-Learner lie!
Actually, it reminds me a lot of how the Greeks and Romans wrote about
people like the Scythians and Celts... If they worshipped a god of war, it
was called Ares/Mars.
Martin asked
>4th edition Pendragon, mainly for the magic rules. Has
>anyone given any thought to adapting the magic rules to
>Gloranthan roleplaying?
I've been using small parts, like the idea that place matters. In PenDragon
Pass, you can cast larger variable spells when you're at your home hearth.
I think the "power level" of Pendragon magic is far lower than Glorantha
(not just RQ the game, but Glorantha, since it seems like everyone in
Theyalan areas has some magic, and in Pendragon you have to be a
specialist).
---------------------
From: kchrist1@students.wisc.edu (Kent E. Christensen)
Subject: MURDER ISN'T THE TAKING OF LIFE, IT'S WHAT I SAY IT IS.
Message-ID: <49044.kchrist1@students.wisc.edu>
Date: 23 Apr 94 19:36:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3782
>Re: Operation Desert Storm as "Murder"
> Uh, well, you get to an interesting point, which is that
>every religion has to deal with the concept of war. I don't
>think you advance the dialogue by calling killing-through-warfare
>murder,...
Oooh, I see. If a *government* rationalizes it's murder by calling it
"warfare" or some such bullsh*t, then it is morally justifiable.
>...especially since the U.S.A. is the only country that even
>tries to adhere to the laws of civilized warfare (which is not as
>oxymoronic as it sounds).
Civilized? That's when U.S. soldiers in Vietnam slaughter entire villiages
full of old men, women, and children, right? Usually the U.S. military
won't commit too many overt atrocities, though, because those in power do not
want to jeopardize their political careers. They just support genocidal
military dictatorships, e.g., the Khmer Rouge, to do their dirty work for
them.
>(How many other countries have ever
>tried their own officers for war crimes?) And you picked a
>really bad example, since Desert Storm was run much more by the
>book even than other wars fought by U.S. forces.
What book is that? "How to destroy the entire infrastructure of a country
and cause the deaths of 100,000 children in the first
year after the "war"?
>"Murder" has a specific legal
>definition in Anglo-American law (and thus also in Australia).
>This definition includes the term "unjustified" and the phrase
>"in the peace of the Commonwealth." It simply doesn't apply to
>warfare--by definition.
Doubleplusgood. If I walk around and kill people, that's murder. If the
government *tells* me to walk around and kill people, that's not. If the
government tells me that murder isn't murder, then it isn't?
>Be a pacifist if you like--no matter how
>morally indefensible such a position is--but don't call war
>"murder."
Why? So you can ease your conscience about the wholesale slaughter of
innocents.
>That just reveals ignorance and/or willingness to
>obscure the issues through misuse of emotionally-laden terms...
Not feeling anything certainly makes this sort of thing easier to do
and easier to justify.
>Persons of good will can certainly debate the wisdom of
>Making the Mideast Safe for Oil-Rich Monarchies. But trying to
>argue away war is wishful thinking, at best. And the medieval
>concept of the "just war," though making something of a comeback,
>is an unworkable compromise between reality and a crypto-pacifist
>religion.
I think this little tirade belongs in 'alt.warmongering.kill all the colored
people'.
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Initiation
Message-ID:
Date: 23 Apr 94 20:03:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3783
John Hughes in X-RQ-ID: 3754
Says much sense about initiation. I'd like to see a fully described
explanation of what initiation means somewhere in print, e.g. Free INT.
So count me in in that faction of 3? 4?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: All air gods draw on one source
Message-ID:
Date: 23 Apr 94 20:03:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3784
Bryan Maloney in X-RQ-ID: 3772
> I must take the person who stated that the worship of all storm gods
> is really just the worship of Orlanth or Umath. This is preposterous
> nonsense. Tell me this:
> Is the worship of Zeus identical to the worship of Tiwaz?
> Is the worship of Jupiter identical to the non-worship of Dyaus?
I might be the one whose text might have led to this response, so I feel
compelled to reply.
If you ask me, the worship of Orlanth Adventurous isn't identical to
the worship of Orlanth Adventurous (sic!), less identical to that of
Orlanth Thunderous/Rex/Lightbringer, even less identical to the
worship of Worlath, and yet less to the worship of West King Wind, not
to speak about Kolat, Umath, Storm Bull, Keraun, Valind, Gagarth,
Sikkanos...
> You are basically claiming that all deities of a particular aspect are
> just one deity. This is obviously a God-Learner lie! You might as well
> say that Aldrya and Ernalda are the same goddess. You might as well say
> that Bolongo and Eurmal are the same god. You might as well say that
> Yanafal Tarnils and Humakt are the same god!
The Lunars tell us that Yanafal Tarnils is Humakt Healed, and that Arkat
and Gbaji are just two aspects of one deity.
Of course we enlightened Orlanthi know this to be a lie, yet even we
attribute the air rune, the source of all Air magic and reality, to all
the gods I mentioned above.
> Let me put it another way: I seriously doubt that Indra and Zeus are really
> "just the same god" simply because they share aspects as lords of storm and
> sky and King of Gods. Why should this be any different in Glorantha.
I would go further: You won't find the same worship of one deity traveling
from one realm to the next. The Renekoti are quite different from Sartarite
Orlanthi, and the Brolian or the Lankst Orlanthi are yet different. This
will show in worship as well, I am pretty sure.
(Maybe the God Learners were the ones to unify Orlanth worship somewhat?)
> Now, I will grant that it is highly likely that the Godlearners were beginning
> to fuse various deities together into a single being, and it would have been
> easier to first conglomerate those of similar aspects.
They are "credited" with the creation of several new deities, e.g. Kolat,
Tanian, and even Jogrampur.
On the other hand, they threw together several deities if it suited their
purposes. Look at the conglomerate called Issaries cult - you'll find at
least five originally independent deities (or as likely human heroes)
thrown together.
> However, you might as well say that Orlanth is really Yelm and both are really
> the Red Goddess who is really Kigor Lytor.
At least Orlanth is the one who really is inheritor of the office both Yelm
and the Red Goddess try/tried to usurp, that of the ruler of the world.
Kyger Litor doesn't fit into this scheme, though.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: argrath@aol.com
Subject: More ruminations on law+order
Message-ID: <9404231955.tn89697@aol.com>
Date: 23 Apr 94 23:55:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3785
Compare your basic guy standing on a street corner in Pavis,
1620 S.T., with your basic guy standing on a street corner in
Washington, D.C. in A.D. 1994.
Joh Pavisite is part of a web of relationships based on his
family, clan, religion, and employment. Let's make him a second-
generation Sartarite immigrant of the Aranwyth clan. His father
came from Swenstown, married an Ernaldan of Sartarite extraction, and brought
Joh up right. The Aranwythi can't participate in their old clan rites here
in Pavis, so like other Sartarites they have formed essentially new clans
here, based on a "tribe" of Dorasor. The Pavis-Aranwythi (for lack of a
better name) act like a clan for marriage purposes, trading wives with the
other clans of Sartarite extraction, with a preference for the clans from the
Swenstown confederation. Joh is married to a woman whose father was of the
Kheldon tribe. Thus, he has ties to
every other Pavis-Aranwythi (whom he knows well), every Pavis-
Kheldoni (whom he recognizes on sight), and every other Pavisite
of Sartarite extraction (as part of the fictional "tribe of
Dorasor"). Most of these folks are part of the cult of Orlanth
and Ernalda, as are a number of non-Sartarites who thus have a
link with Joh because they see each other at the weekly rites.
Joh took a job as a servant of a Rich Hill family, one of the
branches of the Indagos clan. He works for them six days a week
and lives at their home, but today is Windsday and he has the day
off. As he stands, watching the city move around him, some bully
comes up and messes with him. Does he call the watch? Those
Lunar scum? His cousin-in-law Knut, a guard, just walked past
and waved at him, and some of his age-mates from the temple are
inside the tavern, dicing. He calls for them, obviously, and
they even the odds for him. The bully goes off in search of
easier prey. If the bully caught Joh in the wrong part of town,
then (if Joh is still alive) Joh can call on his employer to seek
justice and/or retribution, call on his temple, or (best of all)
call on his clan.
Joe Washingtonian, on the other hand, came here from East
Lansing, and hasn't talked to his parents since last Christmas.
He has made some friends at work and in the bars he hangs out in,
but they live way out of shouting range (mostly in the suburbs).
He works for a small corporation where the manager is a temp (and lives in
the suburbs). A comparable bully comes up to him. What are his options?
Both Joh and Joe are average men with jobs, in every way
normal for their society. But Joh would be lost in Joe's
position, and Joe would feel suffocated in Joh's. In a crisis,
Joh has dozens of people who HAVE to help him, even if they don't
like him. Joe has his friends, who can stop liking him and not
have anything more to do with him. His employer? Sorry, your
employment benefits don't include hiring an attorney to get
compensation for your assault and battery. The police take a
report. Deterrent value: zero.
What a difference!
Let's go back to the geezer in MOB's example with Maculus.
This geezer is in Suntown, if I recall correctly. He's an
initiate of Yelmalio, part of the original group which settled in
the new city when Duke Dorasor made his treaty. Like every Sun
Domer, he has had his place defined for him by the cult since he
was little. The Sun Domers are Orlanthi in culture, so he has a
clan and his "tribe" is the Sun Dome County itself. Since I'm
making this up, I'll say there are four clans in Sun Dome County,
and they are normal exogamous kin-groups under the Orlanthi
model. Geezer is a member of the Hyalor clan, his mother was of
the Dike-builder clan, his wife is of the Glowbrow clan (he
married well), and his daughter-in-law is a member of the Vrok
clan (before the Cold Sun Switch, it was the Yinkin clan). Thus,
he has ties to all the clans. Any random person in Suntown is
his relative, and has to come to his aid. Even if he weren't, he
is clearly (by his dress and speech) a Sun Domer, and every
resident of Suntown will come to his aid in an emergency. He
only has to yell out, and people will come running out into the
streets, spears in hand. If the bully gets away, Geezer calls on
his sons (one of whom may be in the street gang), his employer
(the owner of the brewery, say), and, if necessary, his
theocratic overlord for justice. This justice may involve
catching the bully and giving him a good beating. Sure, they
don't want the watch looking on, but that doesn't mean they do
things any differently from the way they did them before the
Lunars came.
Who needs the watch? More importantly, who wants to let
them get involved, usurping the role of the family, clan, and
cult? If the bully turns out to have the backing of his clan and
cult, then the Sun Domers will have to turn him over to the
Mayor's court or the Lunar court, whichever Geezer thinks he'll
get a better hearing in. Like people today, he says, "I don't
want a full and fair hearing, I want to win!" In court, the
bully's allies will try to sway the judge for his release, while
the Sun Domers scream for blood. Which way does the judge
decide? It depends on which faction she'd rather annoy.
A point which my wife suggested (she's writing a
historical novel): even if something in the story is authentic,
if it destroys the willing suspension of disbelief, you have a
problem. You can "footnote" it, you can try to shade it so that
it convinces the reader/player of its authenticity (very
difficult), or you can get rid of it.
Isn't the system of justice I've suggested a richer source
of role-playing ideas than the "Call the watch" school? Instead of some
strangers administering some strange justice, characters have their relatives
protecting them and enforcing their own sense of justice.
Well, anyway,
--Martin
---------------------
From: RuneQuest-Request@glorantha (Moderator intervention)
Subject: Re: Definitions of "murder", please stop this thread.
Message-ID: <9404240942.AA00892@aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 24 Apr 94 10:42:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3786
I don't mind the occasional excursion into the real world,
and I was actually tempted to take sides with some of the
arguments in this thread.
However, by now it has wandered far from the charter of the
RuneQuest Daily.
People wishing to continue the discussion are encouraged to
use the "forward" option of their mail reader, sending their
comments to the original authors...
--
Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[] | My first law of computing: "NEVER make assumptions"
---------------------
From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 19 Apr 1994, part 5
Message-ID: <9404241146.AA01263@aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 24 Apr 94 15:48:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3787
johnjmedway:
> Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 19 Apr 1994, part 5
> To: henkl@Holland (henk langeveld)
> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 94 14:07:08 CDT
> Cc: jjm@zycor.lgc.com
>
> Was there a part 3 or 4?
>
This part 5 was actually left over from monday...
I think there was a part 6 as well?
This resulted in part 3 and 4 to be skipped...
I fixed the backlog of articles later last week.
All messages have been sent out (check the rq-ids)
although not in the proper order.
Sorry for the confusion.