Bell Digest v940425p3

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Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 25 Apr 1994, part 3
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: More Kinship.
Message-ID: <9404242156.AA18425@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Apr 94 21:56:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3793


John H:
> Alex's diagrams continue to haunt me...

Hey, you started it, pal.  Err, `mate'. ;-)

> Kinship Rule 1: MAKE IT UP!

I just wanted to check if you had some extensive real world research
of a particular case study/intense personal emotional stake/Official
Gregisation/other before I drove a proverbial Kresh wagon through
it all. 

> We suspect that the people who make a special 
> study of them are frustrated symbolic logicians who 
> should be locked away in a mathematics department.

Or computing science depts., perhaps.

> ^ Do these relationships change over a prolonged period? 
> (or periodically?)

> These relationships are usually fairly stable, but sometimes have 
> to adapt to catastrophes like war, famine, population 
> explosion or (a perennial Orlanthi problem) simply wiping 
> each other out!

I thought your phraseology seemed to imply the inter-skin relationship
might "rotate" or otherwise change on some regular basis.  (Compare
the tribal customs of university department heads, professors, and planning
unit directors, say. ;-/  (To wit, generally the same people with different
hats on over a period of time.))  Obviously just my fevered imagination
seizing on non-existant evidence.

> Orlanth Martial 

Who he?  Details, details!

> Not surprisingly, this clan has been swelled by southerners 
> since the Lunar invasion

Really?  Isn't fleeing north entirely the Wrong Direction for storm
worshippers?  I can see why lots of Elmali would want to, though.

Alex.

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Post as a 'newt.
Message-ID: <9404242204.AA18436@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Apr 94 22:04:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3794


I'm about to say something about Dragonewts again, so:
\begin{wildunsubstantiatedguess}

David Dunham:
> In the boardgame Dragon Pass, if the Inhuman King is killed, dragonewts
> aren't reborn when killed. Since there's no Inhuman King in Ormsland (in
> Ralios), does this mean that Ormsland dragonewts don't resurrect?

Yup.

But I think they can still try to perform essentially the function
of the Inhuman King, by a ritual involving the highest available
stage 'newts.  This is difficult, unreliable, and somewhat dangerous,
so it's rather more like resurrection among theist human societies
in practise than it is `normal' 'newt rebirth.

> Do they still have the chance to be reborn as a "higher" dragonewt form?

Not (normally) by being `reborn', no.  Because rebirth isn't usual among
this lot, they generally actually `evolve' [*] into the next stage in the
same body.  This leads to Ormsland warriors and nobles exhibiting vestigial
features of earlier stages to a degree detectable to careful expert
scrutiny.  Only a very few reports exist of individuals who appear to
be actually `between' stages, perhaps suggesting that dragonewts do not
go abroad at such times.  As has been noted elsewhere, higher stages are
progressively less common than in Pure communities.  Occassionally a
Ruler stage 'newt will arise here [**], but never the fifth stage.

[*]  Or as Arastekos Veermsbrane, on the whose theories and observations
I base the bulk of this reply, helpfully puts it: "... endo-recapitulate
draconic ontogenic transmogrification."  :-|

[**]  One theory has it that rulers observed in Ormsland are in fact
visitors, missionaries, or settlers from Dragon Pass or Ryzel.  No one
likes to ask.

> (Or for that matter, as a dinosaur?)

Oh yes.  This is endemic.  Or rather endo-recapitulation of dr--  devolution,
in the same body, is.  This happens a) spontaneously; b) to 'newts being
`resurrected'; c) to the 'newts _doing_ the resurrection; d) for all the
usual reasons.  The non-mutants hunt and kill 'em with some vigour, for
many of the obvious reasons.

\end{wildunsubstantiatedguess}
% Maybe.

I asked about Ormsland myself a while back, I don't think I got any
definitive answers.  The broad picture seems to that it's not a pure
Draconic Path community, but nor is it wholely "apostate".

Alex.

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Saints, Kin, and Thanes.
Message-ID: <9404242152.AA18415@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Apr 94 21:52:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3795


Sandy:
> 	I think there's no doubt that imaginary cults can be created  
> with greater facility among theists than new Invisible God heresies  
> can be formed.

I have to disagree with this.  All a new heresy takes is a crackpot bishop
(or an ultra-zealous superior), as terrestrial history makes fairly evident.
Of course, whether it survives or flourishes is another matter.

To worship a Whole New God seems much more difficult.  On both earth and
Glorantha, most `new' gods are in fact adoptions from different, or earlier,
cultures.  The original `invention' of a god tends to be hidden in the depths
of prehistory, arising from some primal need of hir worshippers.

>  Though imaginary Saints are a possibility. 

To use RCism as an analogy, new saints are probably being canonised every
day of the week, and "derecognised" at a roughly equal rate.  "I'm sorry,
St. Egbert doesn't measure up to the Three Major Miracles (Confirmed)
standard, so the Archdiasis is removing his accreditation."

I'm sure many saints which have (or at least grant) no magical power are
worshipped, making the above doubly true.

> 	I submit this was part of the God Learners' techniques,  
> finding obscure spirits that were possessed of a Secret Power, and  
> inflating them to full cult status.

Sounds good to me, though it's hard to tell which ones might have gotten
such treatment.  After all, we don't really know what cults existed during
the first age, and they they could easily have evolved by themselves
before or since the God Learners anyway.

Sandy has referred to Secret Powers before, and I was uninformed then too.
What are they, apart from things which grant Rune Lords 1d10 DI?  (If
anyone says "It's a secret", I hereby cordially invite hir to Convulsion
for a Personal Thumping. )

> Ed Wallman states:
> >In general, I find the western civilizations to be much more  
> >difficult to use for a game setting than good old barbarian 
> >settings. 

> 	I find this to be a very interesting comment, especially  
> since AD&D(TM), Pendragon, and most trash fantasy books almost  
> exclusively use this type of setting.

They are typically `Western', and `Mediaeval', but _not_ monotheistic.
There seems to be great commercial resistance to fantasy material
portraying monotheism in the schlock fantasy market, particularly
historical monotheism.  Some lead-balloon reviews of GURPS Fantasy
expressed exactly this reservation, and even C&S has fallen victim to
it.  Pendragon finesses the issue by being more pluralistic.

> (I slammed the Carmanians, saying they weren't very nice.)
> >I'm curious, is this a Relative judgement or absolute statement?
> 	A relative judgment. In the eyes of most Gloranthans, the  
> Carmanians are repressive grasping villains. Obviously there's plenty  
> of kind, caring Carmanians, just like there were no doubt many Nazi  
> party officials who liked dogs and children.

It's very confusing to hear these sweeping statements about Carmania
("Exactly like Persia."  "Nazi-level morality.") on the basis of so
little published info.  Is there a mine of data in the Type B Ruin, or
is everyone speaking off the top of their heads?  (Though hopefully, not
Out Of Their Hats. )

> But most defenders of Moral Relativism I've met won't go so far as to
> defend it in regards to the Final Solution.

Much easier to do from a point of view of Moral Absolutism, all things
considered. 

> Here is why. The Doraddi  
> "kinship" system I designed is based on lineages named after plants.  
> The Lineages are complicated, but dominate all courting and sexual  
> relationships.

And is matrilineal?

> I can't help but feel that the Left-Hand "skins"  
> should not be totally different from the Doraddi "lineages"

From what I've heard thus far, they could be identical for all I know.
(Hint, hint.)  How do Petersenic/Right Handed lineages work?

> 	Give me a hand, John. Maybe one or both of us can modify our  
> concept so that the Skin/Lineage dichotomy becomes compatible

Yeuch.  Why can't we settle for separate descriptions of distinct (but
interlocking) cultures, and _then_ worry about how they interact with
each other afterwards?  I'd love to make suggestions here, but I have
essentially no info on the Official System.  (Hint, hint, hint.)

> [...] the Doraddi are friendly and curious about strangers, not  
> xenophobic at all. 

Note that John's article makes it _explictly_ possible for a total, unrelated,
even non-Agimor stranger to be "assigned" to a skin once sie is known to the
tribe.  So Right->Left isn't a problem.  Doubtless Right Hand tribe could
jury-rig similar arrangements if the need arose.

David D:
> Another linguistic problem: the word "thane." In Pagan Shore, thane is
> essentially a clan chieftain.

This is historically "correct", roughly, I believe: "Hail to thee, Thane
of Glamis."

> In the Orlanth writeup in Heroes I.4, anyone
> in the Orlanth Rex subcult (which includes tribal council members on
> council business) is called thane.

I've not seen this writeup (Sam! ), but my guess would be that "All O.
Rexi are thanes (or chieftains, or tribal kings, etc), but not all thanes
are O. Rexi".

> But in King of Sartar, the rank is
> broadly defined to any sort of leadership role: heads of household, godi,
> leading merchants, and members of the clan council  [243]

Remember that thane isn't a `noble' class: all it requires is that one's
fellows think enough of one to merit the status.  (Not that birth and
wealth aren't gonna be factors.)

> (does this mean the Trickster member is automatically a thane?).

Thane of Drunks, Thane of Idiots, perhaps.  I don't think _all_ persons
on the clan council need be thanes, they're merely likely to be.
(Tricksters rank as Outlaws, officially.)

> And it's listed as an occupation [246].

Presumably this covers anyone of thane rank who has nothing better to do
with their time: eg, weaponsthanes.  "Professional Thanes", as it were.
I don't see this as at all problematic, but it is admittedly somewhat
linguistically imprecise to `overload' the term in this way.  (As if
language were ever precise.)

> And of course there's Elmal the Loyal Thane, obviously this third meaning.

This appears to fit: Orlanth :: Chieftain, Elmal :: thane.  A westerner
would have said "Loyal Lieutenant", with the same degree of (im)precision.

> So Greg not only Gregged Yelmalio, he Gregged Orlanth Rex.

Hey, he has to keep his hand in. ;-)

Alex.

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Horse god, beast shaman.
Message-ID: <9404242150.AA18411@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 24 Apr 94 21:50:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3796


Martin Crim:
>      I dug out the reference I was thinking of, and find that it
> refers to the Pol Joni (although they are not named), not the
> Pure Horse People.  Mea culpa.  The reference is the Pavis Common
> Knowledge book, page 12, where it states "They carried battle
> magics, and their magicians worshiped Rune gods, unlike the
> shamans of Prax."  This was in the 1420's.

You had me wondering if I'd missed some Major Reference.  This is thin
evidence indeed.  (Not to say a source I don't have. )  This event
is clearly not the first time the Praxians had encountered theistic worship
(to discount their own as such): witness previous contact with the Orlanthi,
the presence of Pavis and Sun County, and of course with sun-worshipping
horse nomads.

At any rate, I'm sure it'd be generally accepted that Storm Bull worship
in Prax predates 1420, and so this is not evidence against the Bull being
an independant cult (and not a sub cult of Orlanth, at least in Prax)),
to return (however fleetingly) to my original point sparking off this
sub-thread.

>      Of course, this is late Third Age, and the reference is
> copyright 1983, so make of it what you will.  I prefer to believe
> that the nomad cults developed in complexity from shaman-based to
> mobile-temple-based during the Second and Third Age.  

I'd imagine there was indeed some `development' of Praxian cults over
time, but the mainstay cult of Prax, Waha, is demonstrably still `shaman-
based' at the end of the Third Age.

Alex.

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From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: Sale of RQ-Con Items: Update
Message-ID: 
Date: 25 Apr 94 01:01:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3797

Just to let you know, sales of RQ-Con Merchandise are going well.  I've
averaged 4 pre-paid requests per day for a few days now.  Get yours in
soon, especially if you want a "Rough Guide to Boldhome."

Please remember, I won't be able to mail out your items until the middle of
May.  I appreciate your patience.

Also, PLEASE DON'T SEND MONEY NOW FOR THE "RQ-Con Compendium."  It's actual
cost is mere specualation now.  I will send a refund to anyone who has sent
payment.

Keep 'em coming,

* David Cheng     drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu     cheng@io.com
  (212) 472-7752 [before midnight]                       GEnie:  D.CHENG

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From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: Hero Cults
Message-ID: 
Date: 25 Apr 94 04:28:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3798

I am wonderfully amused, and terribly flattered, by Eric Rowe's cult
writeup.  I guess I don't have to worry about where my soul's going 
in the afterlife any more!  ;-)

However, I feel proper credit hasn't been given.  Let me revise the myth to
better emphasize the role of those indomitable Brits; David Hall,
Steve Thomas, Nick Brooke, Dan Barker, Lewis Jardine, Kevin Jacklin,
and a bunch of other's I'm forgetting.

Without _Tales of the Reaching Moon_ there wouldn't have been any
central, sanctioned source of new Gloranthan material.  Stafford
himself has said that TotRM reignited his enthusiasm in Glorantha.

Without the success of Tales, there wouldn't have been any inspriation
to highlight RQ at Conjunction of a Million Spheres, and Convulsion 
of a Trillion Tentacles after.  Without Convulsion, there wouldn't
have been any heroquesting over the big water to inspire me (and David
Gadbois too).

Here on the home front, let's not forget Andrew Bell, the father of
the RuneQuest Digest.  (Say, has anyone heard from this guy lately?)
Henk has done great things at the helm of what is now the Daily.
Without these guys, there would be a few scattered posts about RQ
hidden between all the GURPS, Storyteller & Shadowrun stuff.

Michael O'Brien has to be credited with snatching the RQ line from the
jaws of disaster.  Following _Lost City of Eldarad_ and _Daughters of
Darkness_, his _Sun County_ was really the first sign of AH's role in
what has come to be known as the "RuneQuest Renaissance."  I only hope 
they appreciate better the role of momentum, both positive and negative.


The way I see it, on the team of RQ All-Stars, I am happy to be the 
bat boy...  

* David Cheng
(p.s.  Eric: the check is in the mail)

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