Bell Digest v940427p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 27 Apr 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Those pesky berserks
Message-ID: 
Date: 26 Apr 94 11:24:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3814

Scott Schneider in X-RQ-ID: 3804

> 1) from joerg baumgartner # 3764. Subject: Tien

> Lies!!  Damned Lies!!

What follows, yes. 

> As any good BeastRider from the True 
> Wastelands knows, the great Bull of the Storm didn't need to call 
> upon anyone to help Him defeat the Devil. He made the ultimate 
> sacrifice, and tore out His own heart to smash the vilesome Devil 
> into Pulp. His having to call upon his wife's strength and this 
> thing called the Block are just the rantings and ravings of Storm 
> Bull's Little Brother, 

You mean the King of the Gods, recreator of the world?

> whom Storm Bull had to rescue from the 
> bowels of Eiritha whem Little Brother got lost looking for the 
> Bright Treasure with his six boon companions.

Where was the bull when the gathered gods caught and destroyed Kajabor? 
Comfortably nestled in the bosom of his wife, Eiritha, or having fun 
in that little battle carousing through Prax.

And remember the thing with the stick and the lariat...

> (I'm co-authoring 
> Beastriders of the Wastelands (Prax Pack) with Sandy Petersen, and 
> just wanted to set the record straight from All of Little 
> Brother's whinings and tricks.

We'll meet in the Praxian Marches, then. I'm focussing my attention on 
Heortland...

Anyway, I got the version I posted directly from the Paps, where the 
history of Prax is recorded by the joint temple of Eiritha and Waha. 
The version above becomes true only after the third skin of kumiss 
in a cold chapparal night, I'd expect.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: mabeyke@batman.b11.ingr.com (boris)
Subject: Moons & Stars & Planets, Oh My!
Message-ID: <199404261422.AA07109@batman.b11.ingr.com>
Date: 26 Apr 94 14:22:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3815


  Just a quick comment.  In X-RQ-ID: 3800 Joerg said:
> Astronomy:
> I looked up the meaning of planet. Webster's yielded (p.1101 unabridged 
> 1989 edition):
> "c. (formerly) a celestial body moving in the sky, as distinguished from 
> a fixed star, formerly applied also to the sun and moon."
> 
> This leaves me where I came from: what does make any celestial body a moon? 
> Must it undergo phases? Does the Blue Streak?

  It seems to me that (other than a few anamalous cases, such as Orlanth's
  Ring) the following classification holds in the Big Lozenge:

  o   Celestial bodies that are "part of" the Sky Dome and have a fixed
      position relative to it are stars.

  o   Celestial bodies that are "part of" the Sky Dome and do not have a
      fixed position relative to it (i.e. that move around on it) are
      planets.

  o   Celestial bodies that "hang below" the Sky Dome, at least part of the
      time, are moons.

  Of course, this gives the counterintuitive answer that Yelm the Sun is a
  planet.  But then, He is most likely another special case.
----
  Boris

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From: eco0kkn@cabell.vcu.edu (Kirsten K. Niemann)
Subject: A
Message-ID: <9404261617.AA04107@cabell.vcu.edu>
Date: 26 Apr 94 16:17:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3816

Forwarded message:
> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 94 10:56:29 EDT
> From: David Cheng 
> To: Mike Dawson 

David Cheng responded to me asking about an ad I saw on the inside
cover of the latest Origins catalog/con brochure. i am posting this
to the digest because if much of what is said about the game is tru,
then I think it may be very close to some of the things necessary
for Heroquesting. At this stage, I doubt that a lot of discussion
about the "Aria" game belongs on the list, but if anyone on the list
has experinece with the system or knows anythinga about the Last
Unicorn people (sounds like a small praxina tribe) please respond to
me. I'm going to chek my local game store for a copy.

What follows is David's response to my question.

> I just got the latest issue of _Shadis_, an up-and-coming gaming 
> magazine.  On the inside front cover is a nice full-color glossy 
> ad for the following game.  I thought you'd like to know.
> 
> ARIA: Canticle of the Monomyth (tm)
> 
> History is what you make of it . . .
>      . . . so you'd better make it good
> 
> ARIA Worlds (tm) includes:
> World Creation: Innovative guidelines for the progressive creation
> of original worlds.  The creation process concentrates on the social
> origins, direction, and motivitions of an environment, and presents
> these considerations in a sensible linear fashion.
> 
> Metadesign:  All aspects of the _Aria_ game our based on the original
> world designs of the players.  Heritage, magic, religion, and persona
> creation all depend on the nature of the environment being used.
> Each group develops its own world-specific rules.
> 
> 
> ARIA Roleplaying (tm) includes:
> Mythmaking: Comprehensive models for our world, enviroment, and
> society design allow players to actually 'roleplay' societies 
> and cultures.  Players assume direct roles in an environment's ongoing
> history, shaping it through interaction on a grand scale and giving it
> life through roleplaying.

(Without calling it that, what the copy describes in the paragraph
above sounds like heroquesting to me.)
> 
> Playable Realism:  All game systems are based on the environments 
> created and stress a persona's individual relationship to his or
> her society.  Roleplaying is emphasized and resolution is quick.
> 
> 
> {Footer Text}
> AWAKEN THE CREATOR WITHIN

(This sounds like a mystical Malkioni heresy)

> To Order send Chk/MO to 
> Last Unicorn Games
> PO Box H
> New Cumberland, PA 17070
> Credit Card Orders: 800-275-4323
> Info: 717-730-9693
> 
> 30 Day Money Back Guarantee
> ARIA Roleplaying $ 25.95  (+ 3.95 S/H)
> ARIA Worlds      $ 25.95  (+ 3.95 S/H)
> ARIA Core Set (both)  $ 49.95  (+ 5.95 S/H)
> 
> ===============================
> 
> Hmmm....  Now, is this just a paper version of _Populous_, that 
> computer game?   Or, is it more like a non-Chaosium _Epic_?

This is NOT associated in any way with Greg Maples EPIC system,
unless somebody in one of his playtests went rouge and started his
own company.

> The advertisement looks fairly sharp.  The art is two figures,
> one an old man with wings, the other a younger warrior.
> They face each other.  The warrior has a spool of wire; a wire
> connects him and the old man.  The warrior is cutting the wire.  
> Strange...  Anyway, a large planet hangs above both their heads.
> 
The planet is recognizable as Earth from a viewpoint somewhere over
the Amazon basin (approx) looking over most of the north western
hemisphere. Some of the proportions seem off. (like the
mediterranean is too big.)

> The arist is M.W. Kalmsa (??? it is very hard to read)
> 
> The company logo is proffessionally rendered, and the whole ad has
> a very professional look.
> 
> I'm going to order this thing, and check it out for myself.
> 
> -DC
> 
Mike
-- 
------------
Gloranthophiles need to contact me at codexzine@aol.com
for information about Codex Magazine.
UK Gloranthophiles write to cphillips@blue.demon.co.uk
"Inquiries into the nature and secrets of Glorantha"   .
------------------------------------------------------/_\

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Initiations
Message-ID: <9404262046.AA06611@trinidad.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 26 Apr 94 20:46:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3817


Loren:
> Society itself was sacred and any progress in
> society, any initiation, was religious in nature.
> I think this is true, but more importantly I am 99.999% certain that
> it's true for Glorantha.

Well, "religious in nature" is broad target.  Presumably, appropriate
gods are invoked, say for Theyalan clans, Orlanth and the spirit of
the founder, so it's religious in (at least) that sense.

> Now who is going to say "this initiation is to your culture, but that
> one is to your religion"?

> They're both sacred.

Yes...

> They're both the product of the gods.

Yeeeeees...

> Any differentiation is artificial.

Woah.  Only if cult and clan (tribe, skin, etc) are unitary, indivisable,
etc.  Now, I don't for a nanosecond deny there's a religious aspect to
"cultural" initiation, or a cultural aspect to "religious" initiation.
But: what I'm quibbling about, is to the general effect that I'm
not convinced that for all Gloranthans, Initiation into their society
is _necessarily_ coincident with Initiation into the full, active religious
life of the community.  And if it does, I'm not much impressed by the
existing, or proposed rules for it.

> This is why I think that RQ/Glorantha needs to acknowledge the role of
> the culture/religion in initiation in addition to the individual cult.
> I still haven't seen acceptable rules proposals to do this, but I
> remain hopeful that it's possible and convinced that it is a good
> idea.

To do what, exactly?  Wanna give some Gloranthasised examples of how you
envisage the two interacting?

Alex.

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Real Gods(TM), Polygamy.
Message-ID: <9404262113.AA06653@trinidad.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 26 Apr 94 21:13:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3818


Newton Hughes:
> I think Berserk should be the property of a bodyguard subcult

"Yes sir, we killed the assassins.  Um, mind you, we killed the dignitary
we were guarding, and twelve innocent bystanders, too." ;-)

Scott Haney:
> In Glorantha, the gods are REAL, PERSONAL, and INVOLVED IN DAILY 
> LIFE, sometimes in a very tangible way.  Our gods here in The Real 
> World aren't.

I think this sort of distinction arrives more from a difference in
perspective than anything else.  Because we look at Glorantha from outside,
we tend to form absolutist notions of how it works.  In Real Life, we're
mostly resigned to many things being inknowab

> by our myths, humans weren't present at the creation of the world

Nor were Gloranthan humans.

> nor do our gods seem to speak directly to us (at least nowadays).

Nor do Gloranthan gods.  If you count oracles and divinations, there
are latter-day earthly equivalents.

> Real Life: Christians, for example, don't believe that any of the 
> Hindu gods exist at all, or ever.  There is no pervasive mono-myth to 
> tie any of our religions together.

The whole origin of "mono-myths" is earthly.  Now, they may not be as
neat as the Gloranthan one, especially in the Bad Old God-Learning RQ2
days, but still...

> Glorantha: Yelm worshippers think Orlanth is a bumwipe, but they know 
> that he's real.  Even the G*d L**rn*rs believe that *something* 
> happened, and although there are many differing myths concerning the 
> birth of humans, there is also a common mono-myth in which 
> practically everyone believes.

The God Learners would have you believe this, and to some exent they
_made_ it (more) true.

> I'm not saying that one couldn't make a case against God Learners or 
> against "X is really an aspect of Y," but I just don't feel that 
> Earth religions are a good measure of how things in Glorantha work.

Then what is?  What should we compare them to, Venusian religions?

> Hindu myths don't include the Christian god

That would be somewhat anachronistic.

> Christian myths don't include Zeus.

There are, however, clear elements of pre-Christian sky worship in
Christianity, particularly since Roman times.

Pam Carlson:
> I remember a graph where relative number of cultures
> practicing polygamy correlated inversely with lattitute - most polygamous
> human cultures  were in the tropics.  As you move toward the poles, with
>  harsher climates, you find increasingly monogamous groups. There are
> also species of birds which are sometimes monogamous, sometimes
> polygamous, depending largely on the availability of food.  It all boils 
> down to how many adults are required to raise young.

This is a less important factor than the degree of sexual dimorphism in
the species, though of course one could argue that that too is conditioned
bu prevailing conditions.

> (After all, a diploid critter has just as many genes in common with a full 
> sib

While this is roughly the case on a statistical basis, it's not strictly
true.  A parent and child have half their genes in common.  Siblings could
have anything from all, to none in common (both admittedly rare, due to
messy details of meiosis).

Alex.


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From: grac@midway.uchicago.edu (Cullen Grace)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 25 Apr 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9404262303.AA27937@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: 26 Apr 94 23:03:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3819






Hello, folks!  Being a newbie to the list I rarely post.  The latest
encroachment of realworld flaming has moved me to respond, however. 

In particular, I was especially annoyed at the recent PC hosing of the
United States government and the Gulf War.  The problem isn't that the 
US was or was not wrong but that this person was so absolutely cocksure 
that in this and many other cases the US is wrong wrong wrong.  He thus 
denies the US the cultural or moral relativism that we take for granted 
in Glorantha.  We do not accept absolutes in Glorantha, neither should 
we do so in the real world.  (Being an Illuminate helps!  :)  )

Yet, there are definitely ethical questions and moral dilemmas brought 
up by real world events.  My druthers are to explore them in the game, 
through Glorantha, and leave the posturing to soc.history.unmoderated.

So, to explore the ambiguities of power and progress, I turn to the 
Lunar Empire.  Consequently, 

"Was Hiroshima justified?"  becomes, "To bring peace to its citizens,
was the Lunar Empire's Moonburn justified?"

"Why isn't the US doing more for Bosnia?" becomes, "Why doesn't the 
Lunar Empire put a stop to the awful Maboder-Telmori slaughter?"

"Was US intervention in Vietnam justifiable?" becomes "Has the Lunar
Empire done more harm than good to, say, Tarsh Sartar and Prax?"  

"What drove Lt. Billy Calley to order hundreds of civilians killed at 
My Lai?" becomes, for example, "Why did the Runegate Beast Irregulars 
murder hundreds of innocent Ducks during Starbrow's Rebellion?"  

All of these questions are debatable.  Only the latter versions, however,
are the ones I would want to bring to, or hear about from, this newslist.
If the debate arising from such Glorantha questions makes me think twice 
about events in the real world, however (to not take, say, Gulf War tri-
umphalism at face value), it has been of genuine and lasting value.


Cullen Grace
 



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From: argrath@aol.com
Subject: Ciao
Message-ID: <9404261959.tn21879@aol.com>
Date: 26 Apr 94 23:59:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3820

paul reilly asks: 
"Oh, what is your source for the Laws of Malkion?  I have never
seen these published, as far as I know."

They haven't been published.  Sorry.  I paraphrased them, though.

Alex opines:
"It's very unclear what you mean by "Ancient" Christianty here:
your answers (mostly deleted herein) don't seem consistent for
any one period."

I meant roughly A.D. 300 to 500, during the period covered by the
"Credo!" card game.  My study of this period has been haphazard,
I admit.  If you feel I've been inconsistent, please enlighten
us (though not me--see below). 

Alex states the truth:
"Christianity has been a `state' religion (off and on) since its
adoption by the Roman Empire."

Yes, but there has been separation between the ecclesiastical
powers and the temporal powers, as a result of the way
Christianity BECAME a state religion.  In Islam, there was never
this separation.

"Hmm.  Another candidate for the Americanisation Test,
Inquisitor. }B-)"

What?

BTW, it's immanent, not imminent.  But I doubt Alex thought I was
saying Aldrya was likely to occur at any moment or threateningly
or menacingly near or at hand.

On a sadder note, I seem to have been dropped from the RQ Daily
Bulletin.  Was it something I said?  Did I transgress the charter
of the Bulletin?  If so, I'd like to know what this document
says, at least.  Ignorance of the law excuses no one, of course, but the
judge usually tells you what you've done before he passes sentence.

It's been fun.  Thanks for the ride, Henk.
Martin

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From: devinc@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 25 Apr 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9404252040.tn24086@aol.com>
Date: 26 Apr 94 00:40:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3821

Devin Cutler here:

Martin writes:

"  So warrior women in Glorantha are going to have to fight
using some strategies other than brute strength.  RQ doesn't make"

Hmmm, in RQ3 and in RQ2 women have the same Strength as men. In RQ2 they also
have the same size, while in RQ3 they can have the same size rolls. So where
is this difference?

I do not want to get into a men are better than women debate, because men are
not better than women, but I always felt that RQ wimped out on the side of
political correctness (even before PC) by making male humans equal to female
humans. In the Gloranthan Bestiary, this distinction has been removed. Elf
males and troll males are different from their female counterparts. In both
cases, one gender or the other is entirely better than their counterpart.

Why would humans be different?

Female Size should be 2D6+3 (or 4) period.

Female Strength should be 2D6+1 or so.

What might females be better at? Well, small size has advantages all its own.
I would also certainly be willing to allow females a bonus to Power, since
females have traditionally been much more attuned to the world around them.

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com

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From: carlsonp@wdni.com (Carlson, Pam)
Subject: woman warriors
Message-ID: <2DBD7057@itlab.wtc.weyer.com>
Date: 26 Apr 94 19:49:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3822



Allright!

From: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski)

I have seen this in my own sport, volleyball. The best male players can 
easily
defeat the best females, but the latter can defeat 90% of all male players.

From: timbee@timbee.rnd.symix.com (Dogs Playing Poker)

This is a fantasy RPG . female
characters have the same stat roll ups as men. They are the same size and
strength. There is just as good a chance of a hulking drooling Babeesta Gor
as a Storm Bull.

From: 100102.3001@CompuServe.COM (Peter J. Whitelaw)
 I've got nothing against
them using their brains but I do not feel that they should be excluded from
the
'beefcake brigade' just 'coz they look better in a lamellar skirt!

You guys reaffirm my faith in the open-mindedness of RQ fans.  Must be why 
I've been playing this game for 12 years.
(What? It's only a game?  Hulk! Drool!)

Pam

<^==@
    /\  /\



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From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Ciao
Message-ID: <9404270632.AA07310@aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 27 Apr 94 07:32:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3823

>On a sadder note, I seem to have been dropped from the RQ Daily
>Bulletin.  Was it something I said?  Did I transgress the charter
>of the Bulletin?  If so, I'd like to know what this document
>says, at least.  Ignorance of the law excuses no one, of course, but the
>judge usually tells you what you've done before he passes sentence.

You're still subscribed as martincrim@delphi.com...

If I remember correctly, you requested I drop the aol address
because you were limited to the 8k messages size of the MSDOS 
based software.

-- 
Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[]	|	My first law of computing: "NEVER make assumptions"

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