From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 29 Apr 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Equal of the Apostles... Message-ID: <01HBQ2LM2R4I99E92I@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 29 Apr 94 08:03:06 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3833 _________________________________________ EQUAL OF THE APOSTLES - VICEREGENT OF GOD Martin: >Yes, but there has been separation between the ecclesiastical >powers and the temporal powers, as a result of the way >Christianity BECAME a state religion. In Islam, there was never >this separation. Graeme Lindsell: >> I understood that the Eastern Orthodox Christianity was far less >>separated from the state than the Catholic Church, with the Byzantine >>emperor being it's effective head. Have I got this wrong? No, you haven't. In the Byzantine polity, there was no separation, no attempt at defining a rigid line, between Church and State, as has occured in western Christianity. Instead, the priesthood (*sacerdotium*) and the imperial power (*imperium*) were seen as two elements of the one organism, which was the Christian polity of Byzantium, known to the Byzantines themselves as the Roman Empire (even up to 1453 these Greek-speaking Christians considered themselves true Romans, heirs to Augustus). Byzantium was considered an image or icon of the heavenly Kingdom of God, and the Emperor, an image of the monarchy of god in heaven. In church, you prostrated yourself before an icon of Christ; in the palace, you prostrated yourself before God's living icon - the Emperor. The mindboggling court ceremonial, the levitating throne, the mechanical roaring lions, the robotic singing birds, and so on, were designed to make clear the Emperor's status as Viceregent of God. The Emperor, also styled "Equal of the Apostles" was the head of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Eucumenical Church in that he alone could summon an Eucumenical Council. However, it was up to the council of bishops to decide the issues of faith and doctrine. The Emperor might be the protector of Orthodoxy, but it lay beyond his power to dictate what its doctrines might be (of course, Emperors would often try to interfere in ecclesiastical matters - the iconoclast Emperors are a good example, and in the end they failed to prevent the Church's enthusiastic veneration of icons). The Emperor also had the power to appoint and dismiss Patriarchs - in Justinian's time even the Pope of Rome (St Silverius 536-537) was deposed on the Emperor's orders. Although he couldn't celebrate the Eucharist, the Emperor received communion in the same fashion as priests, could preach sermons and cense the altar. The vestments which Orthodox priests now wear are those once worn by the Emperor in church. Hey, for more about all of this play CREDO! Looking back on this, the closest analogue in Glorantha we have to the Byzantine model is not something from the West, but the Lunar Empire. The Red Emperor's status seems to have a number of parallels to that of the Emperor of the Romans. Hmmm, I seem to have raved on for a bit, so I'll leave you on a lighter note: WEIRD BYZANTINE FACT OF THE MONTH: Emperor Constantine V, one of the iconoclast Emperors, was nicknamed "Copronymous" meaning "shit-head". So called because either a. the iconodule monks who wrote the histories didn't appreciate having their noses cut off (one of his hobbies), or b. he suffered an untimely voiding of the bowels during his baptism as an infant (Nick Brooke claims this is the true tale). Cheers MOB P.S. I'm now coming to Convulsion! I'm looking at the cheapest way to get to the UK - at the moment it's a toss between Gulf Air via picturesque Abu Dabi or Polynesian Airlines to LA via Western Samoa and then Virgin Airlines LA - NY - London. I'm gonna feel great after that! --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Far famed farters Message-ID: <01HBQ45D4JFM99E92I@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 29 Apr 94 08:48:39 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3834 G'day all, In a Daily a few days ago I asked: > Is choral farting really a noble British art? Perhaps Dave and Nick > could arrange a recital for Convulsion, preferably outside? I received a personal reply to this question which I feel I must share with the wider RQ Daily audience: From Nikolai Tolstoy's "The Coming of the King" (an *excellent* book): ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not finished yet was king Gwyddno's royal entertainment, and the seven solemn-faced men in short kirtles who entered were recognized by all as being as skilled in their special art as were the hummers in theirs. Long- snouted and sharp-heeled were they, foxy-faced and bald. Low before the king bowed the seven newcomers; and bowed low they remained, with buttocks bare gleaming from the ruddy glare of the king's hearth. For they were the far-famed farters of the Island of the Mighty, whose skill in farting surpassed any that might be found in Prydyn, or Ywerddon, or distant Llydaw across the Sea of Udd. Wonderfully loud was the farting of the royal farters at the feasting of king Gwyddno Garanhir upon the Kalan Gaeaf; wonderfully loud, skilfully sonorous, and evil-smelling beyond the achieving of all others of their calling. At first they emitted with rare delicacy the seven notes of the scale, moving up and down the line in harmony, high and low. Then they blew forth tunes such as cowherds and milkmaids sing. They whistled high and they whistled low in semblance of the whistling of the keepers of the king's kennels, or of unseen birds that pipe in the brake. But these wonderful feats were as nothing to what followed, and an ecstasy came upon the Men of the North as each of the performers excelled his fellow with some new and marvellous display of art and skill. Marvel- lously true to reality was the snorting of war-horses, the braying of trumpets, the roaring of stags, the rumble of thunder, the bellowing of bulls, the snarling of wildcats and the long, low drone of a homing cockchafer on a summer's eve. Well-fed were the performers upon dulse and lentils and beans, but not beyond the space of half an hour were they able to sustain their skilful performance. There came a moment when their conductor gave vent to a long, low whistling sound like a serpent retiring to its heathery lair; so sibilantly soft, stealthy-sounding and stalely stinking as to instil an awed silence upon the assembled company. It was a signal for the departure of the troop, and with a final effort of mind and spirit and body they thundered forth a fanfare of such loudness and force and vigour, that men swore afterwards it set the goblets rattling upon the royal board, and all but extinguished the pine-torches flaring in their sockets, and even the great hearth burning beneath the royal cauldron. Like the gale before which no man is able to stand upright, which blows without ceasing from the mouth of that Cave in the land of Gwent which men call Chwyth Gwynt, was that mightiest of farts which was in the North at that time. There were those in the king's hall, however, who feared lest the performance might arouse storms and tempests in the winter sky, avowing they could hear afar off in the mountains the rolling of Taran's Wheel. It was amid smoke and confusion and stench that the king's farters flew from the banquet-hall to the hostel set apart for them. It was long before the pleasure passed and laughter died away and tongues were stilled, so delightful was their performance to the Men of the North... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I want to read this book! Thanks to the person who sent me the excerpt! Cheers MOB --------------------- From: eco0kkn@cabell.vcu.edu (Kirsten K. Niemann) Subject: EPIC Message-ID: <9404281443.AA03674@cabell.vcu.edu> Date: 28 Apr 94 14:43:04 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3835 Mike Dawson here, (not Kirsten Niemann) Graeme Lindsell wrote: " Is there any news about when EPIC is going to be published? Greg Stafford was talking about it when he was in Australia, which was October '92." Greg Maples feels he has licked the major game mechanics problems associated with a system that has to be able to run a god, a man, a philosophy, and everything in between. Perhaps I do not have a full understanding of what all went on out there, but I think Maples' presented hissystem for handling the world and HQing. The reply was, I believe, "Thanks but no thanks." No idea why. " PS To Mike: Got Codex #1 today, looks very impressive!" Many thanks. I guess yours is part of the Australian print run. future issues in Australia will look nicer due to some improvements in production. Also, Issue 2, due out in a little while, makes several further improvements in "Look", including a 2 page center spread map of Galastar, some very nice Freehand illustrations by Durwin Talon, and a very cool cover by John Bridges, who did some of the interior work for Shadows on the Borderlands. Mike -- ------------ Gloranthophiles need to contact me at codexzine@aol.com for information about Codex Magazine. UK Gloranthophiles write to cphillips@blue.demon.co.uk "Inquiries into the nature and secrets of Glorantha" . ------------------------------------------------------/_\ --------------------- From: LOREN@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) Subject: Runes, Gods, Gates, etc Message-ID: <34246082E3B@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu> Date: 28 Apr 94 16:11:36 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3836 This is extracted from a discussion that Andy Skinner and I have been having about gloranthan magic. He wants to work up a ars magica style magic system for runequest/glorantha, just as an exercise, and we started talking. I'd be interested in what y'all have to say about his and my theories. Andy wrote: > What is the rationalization for specific spells on Glorantha? I > would assume that gods can do whatever they want, and aren't stuck > with specific spells themselves. Actually, the gods have to obey the "Compromise," which basically says they can't just do anything they want in the ordinary world anymore. They have to abide by the strictures resulting from their actions in Godtime (the Mythic beginning time). So if Orlanth was associated with Storm/Air/Wind before time began he can't suddenly become a god of the oceans. That's why they offer specific divine spells. Spirit spells, on the other hand, are powered and directed by individual mortals, not by the gods (though heroes associated with various cults might claim to have invented the spell). Same with sorcery. So that's why the gods' magic obeys the strictures. As to why magic powered by mortals does so, I don't know. >The noun/verb style of magic would work within cults, but one of the features of RQ is that people in cults may get certain powers from associated cults. Frinstance a barbarian Orlanthi might get the ability to go Berserk from his brother Storm Bull, but wouldn't get the full range of death/animal/storm powers that Storm Bullies get. How would you handle gift powers for associated cults under your system? Note that the way it works mythologically is that entity A asks for a boon from entity B who gives some token of that boon that is invested with B's own Power to entity A. A then uses the token to benefit from the boon. A can reuse the token since it contains a piece of B's power. Now what's the best way to simulate that? > I looked at the intro Glorantha book from the boxed set last > night. The runes are all nouns, I see. What does it mean for a > god to be a rune's owner? Many gods/heroes/etc can use a rune, anyone can who is associated with it through mythic actions, but the owner of a rune has superior abilities with it. Orlanth is the owner of the Air rune. He would have better or more air-based powers than would another Air-rune god/hero. Humakt owns the Death rune. His cult is the only one that gets a reusable "sever spirit" (equivalent of D&D "finger of death". Brolnic killed a 16-meter-tall giant with it once, and used it on vampires several times). Others may get the spell but it's a single-use 3-Point spell for them. > If there are two gods relating to the air > do both get power from that rune? Yes. But... don't fall to the temptation to read too much into the runes. They're a classificatory system on Glorantha, not the building blocks of the universe. Actually, the gods don't draw power from the rune. The rune is a symbol of all Air, and they draw power from Air. You could have a rune/symbol for anything you wanted, and would use it to focus the power from everything that fit the symbolism. > I think I saw that a god could get power from more than one rune, > too. Yep. > So what is the relationship between "owning" a rune and being > a god with power over certain things which are similar to one or > more of the runes? I think that the Runes are incorporated into the very essence of their owners, and by using the Runes other gods/heroes/etc actually offer some form of worship to the Rune's owner. Certainly the owner benefits from it in Magic Points, Power, and whatever the godly currency might be. It's like the Rune serves as a link to everything it symbolizes, and by accessing the Rune (either directly for the Rune's owner, or through the Rune's owner for others) one can draw on the power behind it. It's like there's a dimensional rift with AIR-POWER on the other side and Orlanth is the gate. If you want to access the rift you need a key and you have to pay a fee to Orlanth. > To look at how entities share parts of their power, I'd have to > decide about verbs (runes look like nouns, and I don't there has > to be a limited number of them--book said there are minor runes and > such): are they owned by everyone, or do different gods have > strengths with different verbs? I think you'd be better off if instead of thinking of Runes as nouns you thought of them as sets and simultaneously as Powers that may be exercised within those sets. They are magical and follow the laws of similarity and analogy rather than deductive laws. -- +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller LOREN@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu Into the flood again, same old trip it was back when --------------------- From: loren@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) Subject: Religious and Cultural Initiation Message-ID: Date: 28 Apr 94 11:14:43 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3837 Loren here, responding to Alex Ferguson >> Now who is going to say "this initiation is to your culture, but that >> one is to your religion"? They're both sacred. They're both the product >> of the gods. Any differentiation is artificial. >Woah. Only if cult and clan (tribe, skin, etc) are unitary, indivisable, >etc. Now, I don't for a nanosecond deny there's a religious aspect to >"cultural" initiation, or a cultural aspect to "religious" initiation. Why do you think that "cult" is in "culture"? Religion is the basis for society, the glue that holds society together in any pre-industrial setting. IMO, cult and clan *are* unitary. Or if not then why is there a different Orlanth cult in Prax from the cult in Sartar? I believe that the Orlanth cult is different from each clan to the next, and that the only reason the rulesbooks don't mention it is that it would be unplayably complex to have all those different long-form cult writeups, one for the Colymar, one for the Lismelder, etc, etc, etc. This goes back to the idea that every worship service is a heroquest that has the possibility to change the cult, if only a little, and that over time every congregation diverges from the cult as it is perceived elsewhere, even over the hill in the next village. Gradually the cult is infused with local accretions. Eventually, given enough divergence, the local cult may become totally incompatible with the cult as worshipped elsewhere. It might not even worship the same god. Naturally, this proves that everyone else suffers from rectal-cranial inversion, not that *we* might be wrong. >But: what I'm quibbling about, is to the general effect that I'm >not convinced that for all Gloranthans, Initiation into their society >is _necessarily_ coincident with Initiation into the full, active religious >life of the community. And if it does, I'm not much impressed by the >existing, or proposed rules for it. I disagree. Adults are *all* capable of participating in religious ceremonies in adult roles, because they have become adults and that's the purpose of adulthood initiations. However, there are mysteries that require additional initiations. Frinstance, the village chief goes through an additional initiation that ties his prospects to those of his village. I suppose in Sartar this would be represented as allying the wyter or initiating to its cult or being adopted/acknowledged by it or some such thing. Members of the Praxian men's secret lodges must go through additional initiations. So must the women into their mysteries. Now to respond to your precise point, that religious initiation and local social initiation aren't quite the same thing, or if they are then the rules proposed for it suck... Everyone joins the same cult. That's the social glue for their community. By joining the local cult the adult should get all the benefits required to live successfully. The most important god in the local form of the religion has to be the one with the most associated cults. If the other important cults don't start as associates then over time through the heroquesting implicit in worship they will become so. In a clan in which Barntar is the pre-eminent deity the land goddess (Ernalda, etc) would give her spells to him, not to Orlanth. So, each locale and/or clan version of a cult would have different associated cults. If we had separate long-form cult writeups for every single clan's version of each cult they worship then it would handle my concerns. It would be compatible with what Greg and Sandy have said about cults. It would make Alex's and other folks' objections to pantheon-style worship unnecessary. However, nobody has the time to write all that stuff. So... we need some way of describing both cult and society to produce a whole which is unique in every little village. Village initiation will then produce a religiously active adult, an adult who is initiated into the main cult and an associate member of the associate cults, without needing to spend 3POW because he doesn't worship Orlanth or whomever the "ruler" god is. Those who wish to initiate further into mystery cults may spend POW and do so. That's what I want. I'm not sure how to write rules for it either, anybody else got any ideas? --------------------- From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Subject: Humans present at the creation of the world as we know it Message-ID: <9404281735.AA16601@sonata.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 28 Apr 94 07:35:50 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3838 Actually, according to Christianity, one could argue that humans were present at the "re-creation" of the world into the "world as we know it". After all humans were present at the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ, which changed all the rules of reality--at least all the rules that were really important. Just a gadfly buzzing... --------------------- From: staats@MIT.EDU Subject: Arachne Solara & the Invisible God Message-ID: <9404282009.AA05741@milanese.MIT.EDU> Date: 28 Apr 94 20:09:48 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3839 Greetings! I wanted to pick up Graeme Lindsell's thread on the Invisible God and Arachne Solara. My view has always been that the Invisible God is one aspect of Arachne Solara which *is* worshipped. At RQ-CON, Greg and Sandy said that a being could not worship Arachne Solara *directly*, but it *was* possible for there to be false spirits/intermediate beings. The Invisible God changed when the Great Compromise/Time came about just as the way sorcery was practiced changed. The Invisible God draws from many primal aspects/Runes, but he/she/it does not ``own'' any directly. There has been a lot of discussion in the Daily about sorcerer's being ``loose canons'', because they are not as religiously tied as let's say a RuneLord or RunePriest. I like to think of all sorcerers/resses as being the initiates of the Invisible God, and when they sacrifice for enchantments, etc. that POW flows to the Invisible God. Indirectly, the sorcerers/esses work for the good of the Great Compromise by preventing any one group from getting too powerful. HAve to run! In service, Rich --------------------- From: nh0g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nils Hammer) Subject: Women Message-ID: Date: 28 Apr 94 14:12:33 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3841 this brings to mind the possibilities of many things not normally listed as I can not find my notes from NS 3006 Bioastronautics, but I have been interested in women for a long time for some esoteric reason. The only difference that I am _certain_ about is size. The average man listed was 5'8", 150 lbs, the average woman 5'4" 120 lbs. The distribution was a nice bell curve that 3d6 matched except for ends. This is about minus 2 SIZ for average women. If I were to assess a STR minus, it would not be very big. A slender female relative was concussed at work and the rescue workers, who couldn't convince her to go with them, had a very hard time struggling with her. I assume weak women are due to special cultural considerations, not the norm. Documentaries of low tech cultures often show women carrying much heavier loads than the men. Perhaps we should have special rules for strength anti-training? There are myths about women having better endurance and dexterity. I do not consider them facts. Perhaps the endurance is based on womens' greater proportion of fat? So, anyway, for colour in a game, I would try; -2 SIZ, -1 STR, +1 CON, +1 DEX -an excellent "theif" option. While we are on the subject, I would like to share my rule on stat rolling. We have a species max of 21, yes? How do I get it? Whenever a stat roll is maximum (all dice show 6) roll 1d6 again. If it shows six, add one to stat and repeat until a non-6 shows or species max is reached. Use the same system when the original roll is minimum to shrink below normal. By the way, is there any support for the rumor that Australian women are taller than American? Nils K. Hammer nh0g@andrew.cmu.edu