From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 04 May 1994, part 5
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: various responses/tidbits
Message-ID: <9405031605.AA05485@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 3 May 94 04:05:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3889
Andrew Raphael said:
>I suggest mustelids instead. [as a troll relative]
I thought of shrews because, to me, shrews also have a
connotation of "primitive", whereas mustelids (to me) seem advanced
evolutionarily. They're both nasty little critters. May as well
mention the viverrids, too, which even have long noses like trolls
are often portrayed (viverrids are beasties like mongeese, meerkats,
etc.).
>Though I hate to bring up that old Different Worlds issue, it
>mentioned a "proto-dwarf module". This implies that dwarfs produce
>something that doesn't need maternal care.
A new-hatched turtle needs no parental care, nor do (most)
new insects. The Tsetse fly has a life cycle that's rather alarming,
and may be worth stealing for dwarfs -- the adult female carries the
(single) young within her body, feeding it via a sort of placenta,
until the maggot is ENORMOUS -- as big as her! It "lays" this titan
young, which does not feed -- it immediately burrows into the ground
and pupates, crawling out a few weeks later as an adult fly. In
essence, the tsetse fly has no "young", only adults, with a momentary
and insignificant stage of pre-adultness.
Mike Dickison says that trolls aren't insects (I agree) and elf women
shouldn't have breasts because they're not mammals. He also feels
that elves should be ugly as sin. A long-standing tradition on not
only Glorantha but Earth is that the woods-inhabiting Faery should be
inhumanly beautiful, or at least intriguing. I think that elf women
have breasts because they're a lot less interesting without them. I
don't think they're big-busted -- I rather think of them as being
barely pubescent in size (the breasts, not the elf females). I DO
think that elf females probably don't give milk. The breasts, small
as they are, are a secondary sex characteristic only.
The next question is, where do the breasts come from? Easy,
from dryads. Brown and Yellow elves (green elves are an exception, I
confess) have lots of dryad blood in them. And I don't think that
dryads are "plant life". Rather, they are spiritual creatures (like
oreads or other nymphs), who happen to be connected with trees. And
their possession of breasts is simply an aspect of the essential
anthropomorphic nature of Glorantha. I think that if a human male
were to mate with a dryad, she would be give birth normally, and then
be able to suckle the resultant child. When an elf male weds a dryad,
I think she produces a typical seed, and does not suckle it.
Presumably a dryad, as a fertility spirit (among other things), can
mate with practically any Man-Rune entity in Glorantha, but no doubt
prefers elves as spouses (with humans in second place, and any other
species as a remote third).
Rich Staats sez:
>I .. think the Invisible God ... is a vehicle for the worship
>of Arachne Solara. ... In my campaign ... The Mostali, who live most
>securely of all >races within the comforting embraces of Arachne
>Solara, worship the >Invisible God. ...the Invisible God is a link
>between Arachne Solara, who cannot be worshipped directly by
>mortals, and the inhabitants of Glorantha,
An interesting interpretation, but not compelling for me. My
own feelings are that the Mostali are, of all races, the most removed
from nature. Despite my natural prejudices towards the Malkioni, I
must admit that they, too, seem to me to be less than At One With The
World, and that even the brutal, uncultured, and smelly Orlanthi
probably commune better with nature than the Malkioni. *sigh*
Peter Whitelaw:
>What would a Yelmalion feel about binding/controlling a Salamander?
I think that their cult does not teach Summon or Command
spells for salamander. If a Yelmalion learned such spells, I think he
could use them, unless he was a Light Lord or Light Priest and had
been on the Hill of Gold quest (on which such abilities are ripped
from the user).
David Cake sez:
>Of course, the real difference is that the Rokari are fairly secular
>(the nobles run the place, and the King has more authority than the
>Bishop), while the Hrestioli are a nation of religious fanatics
I can see this. On the other hand, the Rokari wizardlings
have a much harsher regime than the Hrestoli ones, and so the Rokari
can apply the label of "religious shirkers" to the Hrestoli, just as
the Catholics accused Martin Luther of founding Protestantism so he
could get married.
>>the Borists believe that there IS another god equal to (or better
>>than) the Invisible God, and that this other god rules chaos.
>Which makes the Borists true dualists, like the Zoroastrians.
You betcha. No doubt there is also a secret sub-sect of
Borists who actively worship the "anti-Invisible God". Maybe they are
the reason that Borists are still disliked even today. In addition,
let's not forget that there is a common accusation against the
Borists that they "grow" things on their body because of their
tapping of chaos things. While this may be true in advanced cases,
such reports may instead be the result of sightings of the evil
chaotic wizards -- the anti-Borists. What a great bunch of villains!
I'm adding them to my campaign at once.
>I also dislike having Chaos be too central an element in their
>theology, it seems too stereotypical fantasy
Hey, YOU'RE the one who brought up chaos in this discussion
first, buddy. Anyway, I agree with this -- but note that it's the
minor fringe cults that have all the complex Chaos theology -- the
Galvosti and the Borists. I don't envision the Rokari or Hrestoli as
being primarily concerned with Chaos. Let us not forget, though, that
the Malkioni are beset by chaos to a greater degree than, say, most
Orlanthi. The Malkioni were almost destroyed by the Gbaji Wars which
were all about chaos (regardless of who was right), and both Loskalm
and Tanisor have a great big chaos sump right in the middle of their
nations (Dilis Swamp and the Sodal Marshes, respectively). This has
GOT to be a major feature of their psyche and national development.
Just a thought about the Malkioni: there seems to be a slight trend
towards thinking of them as an extremely human-heavy culture, with
nonhumans making hardly any impact or presence at all. I believe that
the average Malkioni has more contact with non-humans than the
average Sartarite.
A Malkioni living in Loskalm has the Winter Woods to the
north (green elves), Erontree to the south (brown elves), the Nidan
mountains to the east (world's biggest collection of dwarfs), ice
trolls raiding south from Valind's Glacier every winter, friendly
mermen and maybe blue elves in the Neleomi Sea, bearwalkers from the
Rathori, and even the exotic grotarons from the Maidstones. That's
quite an array, even ignoring the broos and worse periodically
issuing forth from Dilis Swamp.
A Rokari in Tanisor has Tarinwood (brown elves) to the east,
Guhan trolls to the north, Nidan dwarfs further north, beast-men,
Luathans, and more elves in Seshnela to the west, and dark-skinned
Agimori-descendants to the south in Pithdaros (okay, they're not
non-human, but they're certainly exotic in Genertela).
This should give range for plenty of action for the Malkioni.
In fact, there's so many non-humans around, it makes me wonder what
the Malkioni official doctrine is with respect to non-humans. I don't
think they engage in missionary work, and certainly only the trolls
have shown any tendency to accept Malkioni beliefs. Perhaps the
Malkioni believe that Aldrya is a saint of the Invisible God assigned
to deal solely with elves? Anyone for St. Magasta? St. Kyger Litor?
Well, perhaps not. But given that the Malkioni are probably not rabid
foes of all non-humans, they must have some way of resolving the
cognitive dissonance expressed by the presence of thriving nonhuman
cultures that have no use for the Invisible God.
Sandy
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From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: Argrath Wakbothi
Message-ID: <9405031659.AA22197@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 3 May 94 16:59:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3890
Paul Reilly here. David Dunham writes:
>Paul Reilly asserted
>>There are a lot of Orlanthi who flirt with Chaos, one
>>way or another - look at Sartar and Argrath for example.
>Can you expound on this? Sartar allied with the chaos-tainted Telmori, but
>that always seemed more political than mythical.
From 'foul slime, curse of existence' to 'allied tribe' must have turned
SOME heads. However, we know that Sartar was into transmutations...
> And what did Argrath do?
Fed all the gods to Wakboth, cut him up, and gave his pieces to his
followers to use to rule over others, for starters.
Ever wonder about the Argrath - Eye of Wakboth connection?
- Paul
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From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: Various Replies; LONG
Message-ID: <9405031758.AA22715@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 3 May 94 17:58:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3891
Gra
Paul Reilly here.
Mike Dickinson writes:
>I think the Man rune means two-arms-two-legs-and-a-brainy-head - Sapience
>plus a humanoid shape.
Agree so far.
>But the underlying stock should show through. Humans
>and trolls have mammary glands because they're mammals (that's what the
>word *means*).
I disagree about trolls being mammals per se. I don't think they are
descended from Mother Mammal - rather I think that the original Uz were
formless darkness beings in the Underworld. They were not forced to take
particular shapes until exposed to Yelm's light (when he went to the
Underworld.) Like other darkness creatures, Uz could practice
eating-and-becoming: eating something to take on its shape and properties.
I think Kyger Litor learned the Man shape, probably by eating Grandfather
Mortal or his body, or a portion thereof. Texts say she 'mated with' the
Man Rune, but Primal Darkness mating is pretty indistinguishable from
eating: they bite hunks off of each other.
Thus I think while Uz have the Man shape, they are basically QUITE
different and have more common ancestry with the insects, bats, Dehori,
and other darkness creatures than with Man as such.
Similar origin applies to the Dark Elves - when plants invaded the
Underworld, Mee Vorala ate them from the inside and stole their shape.
Hence Mee Vorala's friendliness with Uz and wars with Flamal's children.
I like the idea of trolls feeding blood to their children (that is
enriched blood rather than enriched sweat.) Seems much more
Darkness like.
> We should all try and break out of stereotypes, whether Terran or
>Gloranthan, and use our imaginations.
Agree.
-------
Graeme Lindsell writes:
>>How so? Arachne Solara is one step closer to the woshippers than the
>>Invisible God. She is in and of the Universe.
> So is the Invisible God. It is described in one place as being the
>laws that comprise reality. Can't get much closer to in and of the
I am working on Malkioni philosophy. I am pretty sure that this Stoic
idea is correct for some churches. However, I think that there are
others which believe in a transcendant God outside the Universe.
Email me (paul@phyast.pitt.edu) if you want to join in a discussion
on Malkionism. If there are too many responses I will put something on the
Daily, but I was going to wait until it was boiled down...
>It is this immanent Invisible God that I compared
>to Arachnae Solara, not the Creator, who would seem to be transcendant.
It depends on the method of Creation. An immanent Creator can create
by effluxes of his own substance (also called emanations), as in much
of Gnosticism or, I believe, the Carmanian church. More on that if there
is demand.
I think that the early Malkioni believed that their worship strengthened
the laws of the Universe, helping everyone survive (and making their
Wizardry work better.)
- Paul
Sandy writes:
>DWARF BIOLOGY SPECULATIONS
>So, what ARE the dwarfs? Many folks claim they're just "constructs",
Well, according the dwarfs, other people were constructed also. Dwarfs
are special in that they are Makers. I think that the Mostali were pretty
mechanical in nature, and that the Dwarfs are an intermediate step between
them and the biology of 'lower-order-constructs' such as humans.
Note that Dwarfs do have some evidence for their claim that they know
how to construct creatures - nilmergs and jolanti, for example. And they
can make working metal limbs for humans (Arazban (sp?) & Count Alehandro)
> For some reason, I'm convinced that dwarfs are born with
>teeth, and if anyone else accepts this, it may mean that they are
>precocious, able to eat and maybe walk at a very early age.
I buy that. I also think they come loaded with some appropriate software
for their function, as you say the basic eating and locomotion packages are
probably installed before separation from the construction unit. ("Mother")
Probably basic language for the type as well - why waste time teaching
that rather than loading it directly?
> Now, (if I'm right) a dwarf could argue that it is still
>artificial manufacture, it's just more convenient to carry the child
>in an internal "flask". Still, it does somewhat blur the lines
>between "manufacture" and "growth".
Agree. Small 'flasks' were probably installed in some dwarfs during
the crises and uncertainties of the Great Darkness, when many full-sized
dwarf manufacture vats were destroyed. This way it was ensured that even
if the dwarfs were forced into exile, they could make new units to
continue repairs on the World Machine.
> The dwarf mythology claims that the Mostali made other
>Mostali, and ultimately made the dwarfs themselves, presumably
>through the test-tube technique. I don't think there's very large
>physical differences (at least initially) between dwarfs of different
>castes. The whole mythology seems to make the point that dwarfs were
I can go with this: a single base type, cheap and self-reproducing, to
help the Mostali with their tasks. Modifications can be added later as
necessary.
I do think that adult Irondwarfs will have iron skeletons, etc., even
if these are installed later as you say. Perhaps when they reach full size
their bones are replaced? I think the old Mostali certainly had metal
skeletons of the appropriate type.
> I believe that the dwarf castes are NOT hereditary. Instead,
>I believe that as a dwarf child is raised to adulthood, the Gold
>Dwarfs responsible for education do the dwarf equivalent of career
>testing, and assign the young dwarf into that caste to which he or
>she is best suited.
This makes sense IF the reproduction process has become tainted with
Disorder and produces essentially uncontrolled offspring, with randomly
distributed talents. Makes sense, since Uleria is associated with
Disorder.
I'd like to think that at least a few full-size dwarf manufactories exist,
and that some specific types can still be made to order. However, they
may not be able to make new Molds, so the supply of such dwarfs is
low.
> How long is dwarf childhood? For that matter, how long are
>elf or troll childhood?
Good question - one that we often think about, actually. Dwarfs - may
depend on function. May not be that long - the optimal thing might be to reach
full size quickly and then train their neural nets on the job, as it were.
Elves - the question may not apply properly. While they reach sexual
maturity at some point, they may continue to grow slowly throughout their
lives. ( I posited this for Brithini also, although it is very slow - when
the 7'6" Talar talks, people listen!)
> My opinion is that a troll child reaches adulthood a bit
I'll buy this. Trollkin might keep growing a bit longer if they were
given more food. Great Trolls probably mature to full size more
rapidly than Uzko. Given the longer-than-human lives of Uzko, they will
spend a smaller portion of it in childhood, even if childhood ends at the
same age.
I think that Troll society is sufficiently different from human that
it is difficult to compare what 'adulthood' means. Certainly they
continue to gain status throughout life, thus 'adulthood' may be
more relative than absolute.
>I also think that the troll
>language of Darktongue is, to some extent, hardwired into the troll
>biology.
Agree. I will support that in a couple of ways: 1. Trolls out of contact
for millenia can still understand each other. Of course, Uzuz help to
stabilize the language. 2. Trolls _must_ use a lot of onomatopaeia, and
also 'echoic onomatopaeia' - the word for an object may sound a lot
like its echo. But I also think that certain sounds and postures may
have a hardwired symbolic meaning - just guessing here.
>or elves. I believe that dwarfs mature very quickly -- their tool
Good, I see Sandy agrees with me about Dwarfs maturing quickly. The
more people independently reaching the same conclusion, the more likely
it is to be 'true'.
More on Aldryami another time.
> It is my firm belief that ducks and keets lay eggs, which
Definitely. And they are a great delicacy, to some...
>This is also why
>Greg and I concur that ducks have teeth (so they can grin).
Whoa there. They don't need teeth to grin. Bills are funy just
as they are, anyway.
Sandy quotes Nick, who writes:
>The Vadeli know that a little bit of us lives on in our descendents,
>and have worked out ways of getting it back.
We didn't do this with the Vadeli, but we had a horror scenario based
on a sorceror who was breeding up children and using them for immortality.
Most horrible thing I've ever imagined. I'll spare you the details.
>Alex Ferguson asks:
>>What was the Dawn Age population of Peloria? (Third age = 6
>>million.)
> Whatever you need for your campaign.
This is a GREAT answer.
- Paul Reilly