From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 04 May 1994, part 6 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Subject: Malkioni, Biology, Mostali, Anything else Message-ID: <9405031954.AA01413@sonata.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 3 May 94 09:54:48 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3892 Graeme L. opines: >Do the Malkioni believe that Chaos exists outside ... Glorantha? I :don't think they do, and this is my reasoning: >If the standard cosmology of central Genertela is accepted by the >Westerners, then one can logically posit a god greater than the IG. >This god created Chaos, which surrounds Glorantha and can apparently >destroy it. Of course, Western cosmology may not accept Chaos as >alien to Glorantha, but the product of its decay. Starting with this possible logic-process as a basis, here is my response/belief with regards to the Malkioni. I believe that the Rokari and the Hrestoli believe that Chaos comes from outside Glorantha, and that the Invislble God formed Glorantha either by reworking Chaos or possibly ex nihilo. However, I am convinced by this argument that the Borists believe that there IS another god equal to (or better than) the Invisible God, and that this other god rules chaos. Presumably the Borists believe that by tapping this other god's minions, they lessen its' power, and thus enhance the IGs. In addition, I now believe that the Galvosti believe that Chaos does NOT exist outside Glorantha, but rather that it comes as "a product of decay", exacerbated by the worship of false gods. Hence, the Galvosti feel that all non Malkioni are, if not actively Chaotic, at least Chaos-producing, which is why it's okay to Tap them. Okay, here's my take: Let us posit, for the sake of argument, that Invisible God worship probably had a single origin. Now, let us posit that it is also possible that this single, original religion could be contaminated and/or improved by syncretism. Okay, I will postulate that primeval IG worship is simply unkown, or can only be speculated upon from fragmentary evidence. It is obvious that the Galvosti, tap, tap, tapping at my chamber door, have somehow developed a Gnostic slant to IG worship. I would futher posit that this might mean that the original Galvosti religion may not have been "Invisible God" strictu sensu but may have been a flavor of henotheism that was compatible with the word of the Invisible God. This is how we got the followers of the "Beloved Apostle". They were Gnostics who adopted Christianity and took John to be their own favorite. Their actual religion, so far as I remember from my readings, was really altered little from pagan Gnosticism, excepting that the figure of Christ was inserted as a redeemer. Satan was viewed as the ruler of this world, and all material existence was evil. This religion went so far as to state that Christ never had a physical existence at all! His "life" was illusionary. The Nicene (later Apostles') Creed was a reaction to this theological conclusion. Thus, the Galvosti would state that the Invisible God made all things, but an evil spirit, one of the IG's greatest creations, grew jealous and sought to trap the pure light of spirit into the material world. This being was so vile that he cut himself off from the Light of the Invisible God and became Chaos. All physical existence comes from chaos and some of these bits entrap pure, true, spiritual existence. It is the duty of all holy beings to reject the chaos and embrace the Light. Tap is, therefore, good, because it pulls bits of trapped spirit away from chaos creatures (aka krjalki) and gives it to those who have seen the Holy Ways of the Invisible God. To the Galvosti, this makes Tap a sacramental act. The Boristi believe that there is a divine struggle between the Invisible God and "the enemy", but that the Invisible God made the physical world and all the world, and that chaos is the natural result of moral corruption. It is obvious that the source of all chaos was the Invisible God's greatest servant, who chose the path of corruption and evil. The chaos that follows it's wake is just a natural consequence of that being's moral corruption combined with its innate great magical power. Thus, to Tap chaos creatures is to give power back to the Invisible God (who doesn't actually NEED this to be done, of course, the Invisible God is all-powerful. He permits evil to exist as part of his Mysterious Divine Plan). As for what the Rokari and Hrestoli believe: In the beginning there was the Ain, the One, the formless form and the Unspoken Word. From this came the Ain Soph, the Spoken Word. From these principles radiate the parts of the Tree of Life, also called the Sephiroth. They explain chaos thus: When there was only Ain, there was no other. There was nothing other than the Invisible God and only He existed. To produce the Other, that which is not the Invisible God, that which can be called the universe, the Invisible God had to make room, and thus had to withdraw from some small corners. Yet, as when wine or milk is poured from a jug, some small residue stays behind, thus the divine residue, the Reshimu, was left. And, as wine stays good and fine when in the whole but the residues quickly sour and become worthless, thus did the Reshimu sour into Chaos, for it was no longer part of the whole of the Invisible God. I don't recall seeing this anywhere. Procreation might cost the Brithini something (stats?), but I always figured their reluctance to do so was because of their basic selfishness. ZPG fans need not ct -- the differences between trying to raise a family in the crowded, complex, expensive USA or Europe, and in underpopulated Arolanit are immense. The pleasure of raising kids is bittersweet at best, and the emotional, financial, and physical costs of doing so large. I don't think a people trained to be isolated and unfeeling would like such a task. Well, I see the "cost" to the Brithini as being purely social. After all, how willing would you be to breed if to do so you had to do something about as repugnant as rubbing yourself in human diarrhea, swallowing a liter of leeches, and then squirming all over somebody else who had done the same? The Brithini have NO natural sexual urges. Immortality means that there is no logical or mythological imperative to reproduce. (I won't address biological imperatives, since nobody has biologically explained why there is sex--lots of theories, but no real conclusions.) Sex for a Brithini is a lot like having a high-colonic rectal exam. Sure, it may be necessary sometimes, but it's very uncomfortable, rather embarassing, and you'd like to put it off as long as possible. I would even posit that Brithini are not capable of "orgasm" as we understand it. Males might ejaculate, but there is no attendant sensation of pleasure, or perhaps no more than accompanies urination. Believe me, if you don't need to have children to pass on your genes or knowledge or memory, and you don't have orgasm, I could see precious little reason to have sex in the first place. I would wager that Brithini rulers have to provide incentives to those peasants who would be willing to do their duty to Brithos and reproduce when called upon. >I do know that there is an Uz prohibition concerning eating >sapient beings (not corpses but live beings). I am unaware of such a prohibition. Certainly I know of many cases of trolls eating a leg, arm, buttock, etc. off a live human. Doesn't this count? There's even a Griselda story about it, not to mention the infamous troll kidnapper of Greg S's old campaign which ate all the limbs of his victim before the ransom finally arrived. Also, I know that trolls will happily eat zombies, which are technically not "dead" even after dismemberment. When I play Uzko as a PC, they almost always state that they will not eat any living being. This is more to calm the non-Uz than anything. I see it as swearing off pork so long as I travel through a Muslim land. It doesn't really reflect my beliefs, but it is a polite thing to do. Now, on the subject of Dwarves (who are not Mostali, not really): I see Dwarves as a type of von Neumann machine. A von Neumann machine is a device that is capable of self-replication. The simplest versions can only do this. More complex ones have other functions. These have never really been built, but a theoretical use would be as terraforming devices. Drop a few on a planet, and then they'd make enough to terraform the whole thing. This is, in fact, what the Dwarves are trying to do to Glorantha, no? As for the method: Well, if something works, a good craftsman will adopt it. The use of the Vessels proved to be too slow and inefficient. Thus, every Dwarf was given one of two "manufacturing functions". The Vesselers each have a small copy of the Vessel of Clay in their bodies. The Stirrers have a device that works that Vessel until a new Dwarf is made. That's right, Dwarven "sex" and "gestation" are the same thing. No wonder Dwarves don't like it too much. As for the heritability of Dwarf caste: I would say that the "micro-vessel" method probably has the same problem that all micro methods do--greater effects of small contaminants and small variations in conditions. Thus, each new Dwarf has to go through a battery of tests to determine its best place. One other Mostali thing: A player in the campaign where I play the Uz has a Dwarf character. He has figured out how to explain the Mostali (and probably the Malkioni and atheist human) opinion of Spirit Magic and Divine Magic: It's the magical equivelent of drinking from the toilet. True, it does get the job done, but why would you want to do it that way? --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alai MacFergail.) Subject: Religious and Cultural Initiation Message-ID: <9405031956.AA01299@annenkov.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 3 May 94 19:56:16 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3893 Loren Miller: > Why do you think that "cult" is in "culture"? My personal theory here is that one comes from the Latin _cultus_, from the verb _colere_, "to worship", while the other comes from the Latin _cultura_, from the verb _colere_, "to till".Hey, wait a minute! ;-) > IMO, cult and clan *are* unitary. Or if not then why is there a different > Orlanth cult in Prax from the cult in Sartar? For one thing, the Praxian cult isn't worshipped by clans at all, but by aberrent individuals. But I can certainly accept that there are clans for which this is true. But as clans become progressively more civilised, urbanised, Lightbringer- influenced, and generally more liberal, I think it becomes less so. > I believe that the Orlanth cult > is different from each clan to the next, and that the only reason the > rulesbooks don't mention it is that it would be unplayably complex to have all > those different long-form cult writeups, one for the Colymar, one for the > Lismelder, etc, etc, etc. Note those are tribes, not clans. Probably a more likely scale for major cultic variations. How "different" do you believe they might be? My guess would be that published long-forms are generally true for most worshippers, though lots of other details we haven't been privy to doubtless vary locally. (Exact myths and rituals, hero cults, colour of pointy hat worn by High Priest.) > This goes back to the idea that every worship > service is a heroquest that has the possibility to change the cult This isn't the intent of worship, however, so it isn't likely to be a common occurrence. And if a (useful) change does occur, it will tend to spread, either by direct effect of the HQ, or subsequently by mundane means. > >But: what I'm quibbling about, is to the general effect that I'm > >not convinced that for all Gloranthans, Initiation into their society > >is _necessarily_ coincident with Initiation into the full, active religious > >life of the community. And if it does, I'm not much impressed by the > >existing, or proposed rules for it. > I disagree. Adults are *all* capable of participating in religious ceremonies > in adult roles, because they have become adults and that's the purpose of > adulthood initiations. I don't deny this is a valid position to take. However, I don't see it as being true by definition, or stated or implied to be true by published rules or background material. > However, there are mysteries that require additional > initiations. Frinstance, the village chief goes through an additional > initiation that ties his prospects to those of his village. This is an easy case: after all, there's an Orlanth sub-cult specially for it. However, I think it would be stretching thing to suggest that _all_ individuals, whatever their role, join the same cult. Does the merchant, the sage, the lawspeaker, the healer, and the trickster, in addition to, or instead of their "natural" cult? Are you suggesting all these would be effectively "subcults"? You need to be more specific before we consider merging minorities (of one?). ;-) > Now to respond to your precise point, that religious initiation and local > social initiation aren't quite the same thing, or if they are then the rules > proposed for it suck... Aren't _necessarily_ the same thing. In some places they are, evidently, and maybe even everywhere, but I don't see the case as proven. > Everyone joins the same cult. That's the social glue for their community. By > joining the local cult the adult should get all the benefits required to live > successfully. I don't think this is the case, unless one takes a very syncretic view of what a cult is: it would have to subsume the functions of every other "useful" cult. > In a clan in which Barntar is the pre-eminent > deity the land goddess (Ernalda, etc) would give her spells to him, not to > Orlanth. Or quite possibly to both. But I dislike the idea of _all_ (male path) prospective adults having to join (in this case) Barntar. > So, each locale and/or clan version of a cult would have different > associated cults. I agree with you here, this is very much susceptible to local variation. Particularly if one believes as I do that "important" associates have shrines in smaller temples than the rools would have us believe. > It would make Alex's and other folks' objections to pantheon-style > worship unnecessary. Partly. This is somewhat like what I had in mind when I suggested placing greater emphasis on associate worship, but may go Too Far; I'm not sure. > So... we need some way of describing both cult and society to produce a whole > which is unique in every little village. Logically, it would be one cult per _clan_, rather than by village, to extend your argument. I think your scheme breaks down somewhat for less rural areas, for reasons similar to those Joerg assails me with in regards his view of Orlanthi cities. > Village initiation will then produce > a religiously active adult, an adult who is initiated into the main cult and > an associate member of the associate cults, without needing to spend 3POW > because he doesn't worship Orlanth or whomever the "ruler" god is. Those who > wish to initiate further into mystery cults may spend POW and do so. That's > what I want. I'm not sure how to write rules for it either, anybody else got > any ideas? RQ3? Alex. --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: dwarf development Message-ID: <01HBWTAN1BHIQ7ZKGZ@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 3 May 94 12:29:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3895 Some comments on Sandy's dwarf speculations-- I'm not convinced that dwarfs are born with teeth since I'm not convinced that dwarf diet requires them. Speculation on dwarf food to date suggests canned manufactured food (here I picture cans of something resembling dog food to us modern day humans) created by the Quicksilver dwarfs. Aside from Iron dwarfs venturing into inhospitable territory where they may have to eat things that were actually grown, I don't see a strong need to ever develop teeth, unless they have some additional purpose (e.g. they aid in earthsense). I like the idea that castes are NOT hereditary. Might I suggest that during the gestation period, the male and female receive a specific diet prepared by the Quicksilver dwarfs to aid in creating a member of the caste most required at that time. Perhaps this diet includes a component or extract of the appropriate metal or mineral. This would set the young dwarf on the appropriate route (phase I of the dwarf making assemblyline, so to speak). Then at passage to adulthood, as Sandy suggests, the Gold dwarfs test them for appropriate tasks, BUT those tasks would be within the caste they've already been prepared for (that Iron dwarf is best with axes, but that other one handles gunpowder well). The reason I would suggest that the caste is predetermined during gestation is the long development time for Iron dwarfs (per Elder Secrets) and the uncertainty of their worldly duration (you never know when your key Cold Lands scouting party is going to have a negative run-in with evil growth). If your generals mistime their battle calculations, the Gold dwarfs are going to have to start a replacement process ASAP. Training alone could do this, but that seems too random for dwarfs IMHO. --Harald --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Peloria. Message-ID: <9405032214.AA01398@annenkov.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 3 May 94 22:14:44 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3896 > Alex Ferguson asks: > >What was the Dawn Age population of Peloria? (Third age = 6 > >million.) Sandy: > Whatever you need for your campaign. This isn't very helpful, unless I've to take it that there will never be an Official Publication which states or implies such a number, or order of magnitude thereof. > If you need historical evidence to back up your theories Not really, no. My provisional guess is in the region of a million or two, but I could fudge it either way. > >What approximate proportion of the male populace of the following > >areas worship: a) Yelm; b) other solar deities; c) Lodril (or close > >relatives). > Also, what does the (b) category cover? The "Gods of Above", roughly. > Mastakos? Surely not worshipped in Dara Happa, at least very little, and not until very "recently". You mean because he's a "planet", I assume? > Ourania? Yes. > Presumably Lodril includes the Lowfires and Dendara, right? Not Dendara: I carefully asked about _male_ worshippers. (I assume most Yelmic wives worship Dendara.) Lump the Lowfires in there, yes. If Dendara _is_ worshipped by males, I assume they're "lower class", so put them in (c), I 'spose. > i) Cities in Dara Happa proper. > Yelm: 5-20% > Other Solar Deities: 10-70% > Lodril & co.: 10-30% (mostly immigrants) [Others deleted, but taken due note of.] That's quite a small number of Yelmites: you basically think everyone worshipping Yelm is "noble", ruling or not, then? Your numbers imply lots of "other" worshippers: what are the rest, Lunar worshippers? (I suppose I was thinking of "classical" Dara Happa, though it'd be interesting to know how "converted" Peloria was. too, assuming the relative proportions of Sun Pantheon worshippers Nick Brooke's Secret Stuff #3860: > Jim De Gon is right: the fourfold Indian caste system (three ruling Aryan > castes over a suppressed native population) was one of my models for the > Carmanians. Bah! Nicked! ;-) I had a (very roughly) outlined caste system for Dara Happa (I know, I know, a dead duck for Gregging) on these lines. > But there is more mobility within the top three social classes > than you'd get in a caste system: more like mediaeval Europe (you would > train with the knights, study with the wizards, and take the career your > father or lord determines for you). Is this more of a "Western" caste system, then, perhaps Hrestoli-derived? My DH system proposed _no_ caste mixing or mobility, btw, but that was of course before the Lunars got their grubby liberal paws on it. Alex. --------------------- From: 100102.3001@CompuServe.COM (Peter J. Whitelaw) Subject: Runic Common Sense Message-ID: <940503224259_100102.3001_BHJ38-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 3 May 94 22:42:59 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3897 Mike Dickison in X-RQ-ID 3876: >We should all try and break out of stereotypes, whether Terran or >Gloranthan, and use our imaginations. Hear, hear! Whilst drawing upon one's knowledge of various specialised fields (anthropology, biology, history etc.) is very commendable in explaining the multifarious features of Glorantha surely we should try and avoid rationalising it all so much so that Glorantha just becomes a sterile intellectual exercise. After all: This is Glorantha and _not_ Earth we are talking about here. No amount of academic knowledge is a substitute for a poor imagination This is a Role-playing game and it's supposed to be FUN! Well, that's what I think. But there again I'm not an anthropologist or a biologist or an historian or whatever ;-). Peter ---------------------