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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 06 May 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Initiates, of whatever height.
Message-ID: <9405052104.AA03054@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 5 May 94 21:04:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3924
Joerg, X-RQ-ID: 3884
> Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3868
> > Maybe I should write one of
> > 'em sometime, to give y'all something to aim your potshots at.
> You should. Every little bit of additional info helps.
Okay, I semi-resolve to do so. Don't hold your collective breaths,
though. Note the cult I had in mind was what Joerg would call a
"Voriof Initiate" type cult, which may be getting us off the point of
adulthood induction. Such as it was.
Huh, "little", indeed. Hrmph! ()
> Not just the tithes, more important are the temple duty time requirements
> a member of three cults would have to serve.
I don't know about "more important", but yes, that too. I agree that
someone joining three, distinct cults, with separate "costs" for each,
particularly city-dwellers -- a notoriously impious, back-sliding lot
likely to fall into complete apostacy if one doesn't keep a damn close
eye on 'em -- isn't very likely, and certainly shouldn't be presented as
the "norm", much less a requirement.
> > The structures and importance of clans in cities is questionable.
> > Persons living in towns or cities are distanced from their tribal
> > origins, and possibly removed entirely. Hence even if full membership
> > of your clan normally requires that you be an Orlanth initiate, this
> > may be much less important in urbanised septs.
> I happen to know a bit detail info on Jonstown, from the united
> efforts of a group of friends in contact with Greg and AH.
Post! Post!!
> The picture
> drawn for Pavis Outside the Wall quarters is even more true for
> the small Sartarite cities. The clans are at least as important as
> the city guild, even under Lunar occupation.
Sure: there's going to be a "trade-off" between the relative importance
of the clan, and the city: whose social organisation prevails, and to
what extent.
> > The Lunar religion isn't one which would facilitate a clan structure,
> > and I think conversions are almost entirely on an individual basis.
> Hmm. Convert the chieftain, and you will have converted a considerable
> part ofhis hirdmen. Maybe not all - check the influence of christianity
> at Gorm the Old's court in 10th century Denmark, and the dissenters under
> his son Svein Forkbeard.
Yes, some individuals are likely to have a cascade effect, granted,
but my thrust is that, where one starts with a clan in which all adult
males must be initiated to Orlanth, you can't really replace this in one
fell swoop by one where all adult males must be initiated into the Seven
Mothers. For one thing the Lunar religion doesn't _have_ any particular
clan structure to impose on people, and isn't philosophically inclined
to do so anyway. This means they can either let the usual initiation
process proceed unhindered (and they do so in the case of initiation to
"safe" gods such as Ernalda), or they can simply _stop_ them, and/or
eliminate the specifically cultic part, thereby breaking the traditional
link between cult and clan. This leaves them free to try to convert
the people concerned at a later date.
> > Not every city dweller is a "professional", or an artisan, so this
> > argument only goes so far. Also, many such cults are likely to be
> > subcults of other, more generally important cults. Frex, the masons
> > of Pavis are a subcult of the city god, in Sartar many will be subcults
> > of Orlanth or Ernalda.
> If there is one intitiation to all the aspects of life, then all
> are subcults - that's cultural initiation for you.
I think my antecedent is more likely than yours, somehow. Doesn't it
seem reasonable that where a city god is strong, particular crafts
associated with that city, especially when organised into "City Guilds",
should be regarded as subcults of the city god? I don't think this is
"everything is a subcult of everything else" type argument. At least
I hope not, since I believe it to be the wrong way to think of (distinct)
cults.
> > One can live in a city without being initiated into its God, at least,
> > I believe, in most cases.
> You cannot live in a city for long and exclude yourself from social
> activities in a pre-industrial society.
I don't think this means "become an initiate or get out", though.
> > Most city dwellers, I believe, don't join all of the above, they join
> > whichever happens to be most important to them, personally, and possibly
> > worshipping the others as lay members or associates.
> As associates.
And why not as lay members? You yourself have argued that city gods are
sometimes rather weak affairs, so why even should membership be compulsory?
> We come together, if slowly. I would differentiate
> between various forms of associate initiates, though.
What does this mean?
> No, but CoP. The Pavis cult procession is ignored by the lay Pavisites
> (like Biturian) until the priest casts a powerful City Harmony. What
> happens thereafter is mainly the effect of the spell.
Pavis Lay members _must_ worship (on seasonal Holy Days, at least),
according to the body of the CoP text.
> > It does? Surely most Orlanth Rex worshippers in Sartar aren't even
> > related to the royal bloodline?
> Kallyr Starbrow, queen of the Kheldon, and Harvar Ironfist, Duke of the
> Vantaros, are only two examples of suddenly surfaced kinspersons of
> Sartar, however distant, in chieftain position.
I don't think their claim to Tribal Kingship in any way depends on their
relationship to Sartar. Harvar is King of the Vantaros, Duke of Alda-Chur
(and Farpoint?), I think, to be picky.
> > Perhaps I should have asked a more
> > clearly-defined question, such as "Is it [the Aeolian Church]
> > similar to the doctrine of the Henotheist Church [of Otkorion]?"
> As far as I am concerned, yes, it is.
Okay. My picture is of less Malkioni influence, and correspondingly
a less prevalent role for the IG in Heortland. De gustibus, n'awrat.
> > I have my quibbles about your suggested Aeolian theology, but I'll save
> > that for another message. (Nano-summary: God Learner!! Kill!!! )
> This is the old and sad confusion people have ever since the Dark Empire
> fell to the Return to Rightess fanatics misled by the Jrusteli God
> Learners. This (early) Arkati creed is without doubt pre-God Learner,
> and therefore neglects their separation of distinct magic systems.
Heh. No, what I meant was the inclusion of deities in the creed which
aren't in _either_ Western or Orlanthi cosmology: I wasn't objecting
to the combination of these two, which is obviously the whole point.
> > But in any case, if all Aeolians worship their Trinity, my point holds
> > good.
> They all say so in the credo their wizards/priests taught them. I doubt
> that many would seriously reflect on the implications of this tradition.
Said point was that this Trinity serves as a common "focus" for everyone
to worship, whereas otherwise they'd be in distinct "cults".
> I never said that the Elmali were anti-Wind
You said Orlanth was, or was becoming "not a positive role-model", I think.
> [...] The sacred marriage with
> the land for instance would be Elmal's duty rather than Orlanth's in these
> clans and tribes, and rather than to celebrate the short LBQ in Sacred Time
> I'd expect them to reenact I Fought We Won, and the other events on the
> Surface World during the LBQ. [...]
I think this is true for Yelmalio converts, but for "Old Time Elmali",
I'm not so sure. At least for Elmal _clans_.
> > I've already said that where a _particular_ deity is worshipped throughout
> > the community, it makes sense that cultic and adulthood initiation are
> > seen, and practised, as one. However, this isn't true of cities, and
> > probably not of the non-remote rural areas of a "modern" country like
> > Sartar.
> The only Sartarite city to qualify before Dara Happans or Esrolites is
> Boldhome, with approximately 10 to 12 thousand citizens (depending on
> whether you count the non-humans).
Not like you to apply Solar standards, Joerg. };-) I'm talking about cities
by Sartarite definitions.
> > This isn't a "reading" of the text at all, however, it's quite an added
> > level of interpretation.
> Not more so than your misquoting my quotes of published info grudging> .
For the most part, I'm _not_ trying to put a specific interpretation
on the material of KoS, since really, it's too vague to admit such.
Or so vague as to admit any number, if you prefer. My "misquoting"
(aka reemphasis) wasn't intended to argue for any particular alternative
position, but to point out the dearth of firm, inarguable evidence. If
we're going to take KoS as the definitive source, we my have to resort
to appealing for Greggly Divination as to what he _meant_ by these oft-
quoted passages.
> > ("Are you now, or have you ever been, an initiate of
> > Orlanth, Barntar [...] a shamanic apprentice, or member of one of the
> > following approved spirit cults...")
> Of course not - if any participant was, he'd already be an adult .
Eh, yeah, well substitute "about to become", depending on what part of the
ceremony you reckon we're at. So, we're going to haul the bad-tempered
old kolating out of his tree (physically or metaphorically) to perform
shamanic apprenticeship rituals in the middle of the clan's initiation
ceremony? I delegate Joerg to go fetch (no pun intended -- no, really!)
him. ;-)
> > It is? I think I need a programme to keep track of the players here.
> > I'm not sure exactly what you are proposing, but it sounds not unlike
> > (gasp) lay membership. An RQ2ism devoutly to be wished.
> If your idea of lay membership is more powerful than mine, I can see
> clouds on the horizon . I would rule that to
> spiritually benefit e.g. from a pilgrimage or a major religious festival
> otherwise than a warm feeling one needs to be initiated to some degree. A
> lay member may look on, get drunk and satiated, and dally with the girls
> in full ornament, but that's about it.
When you speak of Initiates who don't sacrifice POW, don't gain magical
benefits, but who do worship, how does this differ from the usual (God
Learnerised, doubtless, RQ2 via assorted RQ3 long forms) idea of Lay
Membership?
> A country ruled by a dynasty of wizards (descendants of Sartar) is not so
> strictly theist IMO.
Gah. Well, I'm sure you mean "sorceror" not "wizard", for one thing.
Sartar was a Hero: that he displays unusual magic is not be remarked
on with suspicion. I see no reason to definitely conclude that his
magics were sorcerous, much less that his descendants manifested such
powers. However, if it winds up your players, more power to you. ;-)
It's not an idea I'm mad keen about, but I can see you could conjure up
arguments in favour. It seems very odd that a factoid this whacky wouldn't
have come to light previously, though.
> > Joining a spirit cult is effectively becoming an Initiate to that spirit,
> > in all but name.
> Towns like Runegate did not have one town spirit, but a host of them (all
> crushed by the Bat). To which one of them would a citizen be initiated?
Runegate I must plead ignorance of, but I can easily believe this to
be the case. Are these various spirits associated with each district,
with different clans, or what? Recall that I'm the person who's suggesting
that (cultic/pantheonic) Initiation may _not_ be "compulsory" before
persuing this logic in that context.
Obviously, some such spirits are pretty feeble. Pavis is a comparatively
powerful one, I believe, even for a city of that size. I think there are
very few which are the "traditional cults of adulthood", perhaps the
Tripolis deities being the most likely candidates. I also suspect that
the "costs" of membership vary with the importance, too.
> and in X-RQ-ID: 3871:
> > Joerg:
> > You have me truly confused now, Joerg. Didn't you just say (in the other
> > message I replied to today) that you were proposing that adulthood
> > initiation _wouldn't_ involve POW sacrifice?
> Adulthood initiation wouldn't, the basic religious initiation would
> involve POW sacrifice (once).
Huh? What, then, is the "basic religious initiation" that costs POW,
if it isn't "Voriof Initiation" (as you have said elsewhere), and it
isn't "Adulthood initiation", which you insist have a mandatory religious
component, via what previously seemed to be to be essentially a "cult"
consisting of the entire pantheon. (i.e., what I thought we'd agreed
_not_ to call "cultural initiation".)
> I only went along Loren's point of view
> that both coincide for all (Orlanthi-all, i.e. between 85% and 100%)
> members of the society.
True. It's the (0-)15% that're troublesome, though.
Alex the Troubled.
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Amateur biologist speaking
Message-ID:
Date: 5 May 94 07:24:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3916
Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 3891
> Mike Dickinson writes:
>> I think the Man rune means two-arms-two-legs-and-a-brainy-head - Sapience
>> plus a humanoid shape.
> Agree so far.
On my non-Gloranthan game world I assumed that possession of the Man
Rune made interbreeding possible, although in cases with very different
biology/ancestry only with magical help.
> I disagree about trolls being mammals per se. I don't think they are
> descended from Mother Mammal - rather I think that the original Uz were
> formless darkness beings in the Underworld.
Neither are the humans descendants of Mother Mammal, not on Glorantha.
You might argue that most Hsunchen are (at least by adoption), but e.g.
the Agimori have no bestial ancestry whatever.
> They were not forced to take
> particular shapes until exposed to Yelm's light (when he went to the
> Underworld.)
I disagree: They interacted with other races long before Yelm was slain.
How would Gash and Gore have known their path to the surface world had
they not traveled it in the shape they had on their exodus? Also remember
the troll family tree in Uz Lore.
> Like other darkness creatures, Uz could practice
> eating-and-becoming: eating something to take on its shape and properties.
Hmm. This sort of shape change is related to Triolina in GoG. In the
cases where darkness creatures devour someone (e.g. Bagog's ritual of
rebirth) they dictate their form to the subject devoured. Kyger Litor's
ritual is similar, but involves no eating.
> I think Kyger Litor learned the Man shape, probably by eating Grandfather
> Mortal or his body, or a portion thereof. Texts say she 'mated with' the
> Man Rune, but Primal Darkness mating is pretty indistinguishable from
> eating: they bite hunks off of each other.
Other texts say that the various existing realms took the form runes and
toyed around with them. In a lot of myths it is said that Trickster knew
the secret of making men, and that he shared his secret with various
deities.
> Thus I think while Uz have the Man shape, they are basically QUITE
> different and have more common ancestry with the insects, bats, Dehori,
> and other darkness creatures than with Man as such.
Bats I agree with - they are descended from shrews as well. (Although
this would question whether Bat Hsunchen are mammals .) As far as I
know the shrews are the most primitive form of mammals, so they are a
likely point in an evolutionary tree for strange forms to branch off.
Certainly the trolls possess an endoskeleton, blood circulation system
etc that classes them with amphibians, reptiles, mammals and birds, not
with insects.
I find the equation of all insect life = darkness doubtful even for
Glorantha. The timinits surely aren't darkness creatures the way bats
or trolls are. Bees and wasps have too many solar functions to really
qualify. Moths and maggots behave like darkness creatures, so let them
be such.
The troll-insect relation mostly depends on "you are what you eat". What
is a troll living on a Mostali diet then?
> Similar origin applies to the Dark Elves - when plants invaded the
> Underworld, Mee Vorala ate them from the inside and stole their shape.
> Hence Mee Vorala's friendliness with Uz and wars with Flamal's children.
Strange. Most molds and mushrooms eat themselves into the plant (or its
decaying remnants) from the outside.
Mee Vorala's friendliness with Uz is that of a piece of chattel to its
herder. If she or her subjects developed uppity, they'd have to face the
consequences.
If possible, I'd assign an inverted Plant Rune to Mee Vorala rather than
the normal Plant Rune.
> I like the idea of trolls feeding blood to their children (that is
> enriched blood rather than enriched sweat.) Seems much more
> Darkness like.
Rather let some lymph liquid end there.
> Sandy writes:
>> DWARF BIOLOGY SPECULATIONS
>> So, what ARE the dwarfs? Many folks claim they're just "constructs",
> Well, according the dwarfs, other people were constructed also. Dwarfs
> are special in that they are Makers. I think that the Mostali were pretty
> mechanical in nature, and that the Dwarfs are an intermediate step between
> them and the biology of 'lower-order-constructs' such as humans.
> Note that Dwarfs do have some evidence for their claim that they know
> how to construct creatures - nilmergs and jolanti, for example. And they
> can make working metal limbs for humans (Arazban (sp?) & Count Alehandro)
Like the famous iron hand for Goetz von Berlichingen, or a living limb
(like in Moorcock's Corum Saga)?
>> The dwarf mythology claims that the Mostali made other
>> Mostali, and ultimately made the dwarfs themselves, presumably
>> through the test-tube technique. I don't think there's very large
>> physical differences (at least initially) between dwarfs of different
>> castes. The whole mythology seems to make the point that dwarfs were
> I can go with this: a single base type, cheap and self-reproducing, to
> help the Mostali with their tasks. Modifications can be added later as
> necessary.
Yes. They are Clay Mostali, the tenth form, after all.
> I do think that adult Irondwarfs will have iron skeletons, etc., even
> if these are installed later as you say. Perhaps when they reach full size
> their bones are replaced? I think the old Mostali certainly had metal
> skeletons of the appropriate type.
I would make this later installation an enrichment in their bones rather
than a complete exchange. And since trolls like to devour the dwarfs they
have combated (most likely Iron Dwarfs), bones and all, I am doubting this
theory a bit. The appropriate ore, yes, the metal, hmmm.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: The God Wheel
Message-ID: <01HBZ7IV1DDA8ZF239@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 5 May 94 06:30:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3917
Loren here...
Someone mentioned the Godplane and wondered what it was all about.
Here's my theory. The Godplane is a big wheel. At one point on the Wheel
you have the Lightbringers' Quest. At another point you have I Fought We
Won. As Linear Time, established by Arachne Solara at the beginning,
stretches into the future the Wheel rolls along it, stamping every
moment in time with a corresponding moment from the Godtime. Worship
rituals allow the worshipper to enter and exit the wheel safely.
Heroquesting is just hopping on the wheel and trying to change something
in it, trying to change something on the pattern that gets stamped onto
time every year. Not that the wheel only completes one revolution a
year. It also completes one revolution every season, every week, every
day, every arbitrary time period, depending on what is affected. It is
multiple wheels, wheels within wheels. Each group of myths makes up one
cycle, one flywheel, the rotational period of which is determined
recursively. When you stick all the mythic cycles together it makes up
the Godplane, which rolls along from the past into the future like a big
cosmic windup clock with a zillion gears, flywheels, cogs, and levers
all simultaneously spinning like mad.
Got it? Now the important thing to remember from this is not that it is
a crazy machine, the most important thing to remember is that it
functions like a rubber stamp that keeps on imposing its pattern on
Glorantha.
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite