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This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Orlanth Miscellaneous.
Message-ID: <9405102118.AA10962@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 10 May 94 21:18:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3964
Joerg:
> There are an awful lot of Orlanth subcults.
> Is an initiate of O.Adventurous simultaneously an initiate of
> O.Thunderous? Any of these an initiate of O.Lightbringer?
I dunno. Prolly similar enough that, say, an O. L. initiate could
worship in a O.T. temple, and regain (at least) those spell the two
grant in common. I think you can also "convert" between the two without
being "reinitiated", though I wouldn't swear to the details.
> Certainly not automatically an initiate of O.Rex?
No, certainly not. (Not that I have a writeup handy.) The trouble here
is that the term "subcult" is an inherently ambiguous one, covering about
three (any advance on three?) quasi-distinct concepts: a) an Aspect:
eg, Lightbringer, or Thunderous, etc; b) an initiatory status, or
"stage", eg Storm Voice, Initiate; and c) a "subservient cult", such
as the Sandals of Darkness. The term is convenient to describe each
of these, but we need to keep distinct, at least some of the time.
I think "Rex" is a subcult in the second sense, as well as the first,
and hence "initiation" to this cult is significantly different from
the other examples.
> And the rarer subcults: O.Goodvoice, O.Lawspeaker, O.Clown are
> mentioned in the Different Worlds write-up. O.Maker was mentioned
> when I asked for the crafter's cult in Orlanthi society.
> Now everyone can see that these are (quite poor) excuses for combined
> Orlanth and Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal or Gustbran worship.
Extremely good excuses, in my view. There's lots of (earthly) precedents
for this sort of thing, which is not, in my view, true of "pantheon
worship". But, I here you cry, they are "poor excuses" -- ya don't get
alla Issaries' magic by worshipping O. Goodvoice. What a bummer. I'll
tell you another thing: you don't get all of Orlanth's, either. Exactly
what magic the cult does get should depend on where on the Orlanth <->
Issaries scale the cult actually is, which may vary according to local
inclination.
Note that I _wasn't_ suggesting a redsmith would worship "Orlanth Maker".
(Did I hallucinate this subcult? Okay, sue me.) I was suggesting this
for "miscellaneous" male-role crafts.
> To
> enter level 2 of the Hughesian discussion levels (RQ-G), they are ways
> to avoid the extra POW sacrifice but get the advantages of the associate
> cult.
I hope you mean "some of the advantages..." Did John mention the Powergamer-
Glorantha level? ;-)
> No doubt one could find O.Berserk (Urox), O.Deathbringer (Humakt),
> O.Plowman (Barntar), O.Landgod (Ernalda), and maybe even O.Cold Sun
> (Elmal) if one munchikinizes.
I agree with Orlanth-Barntar, and perhaps Orlanth Berserker (the pre-3rd-
age subcult previously discussed?), but the others sound dubious, for
various reasons.
> The point I want to make from partly RQ, partly Gloranthan level (sorry,
> John, I can't keep up with these declarations)
Thank Ghod and Saint Stafford! ;-)
> is that there is no
> consistent system in the GL one cult - one deity concept.
Yes, I agree with this. "Are we still worshipping the same god yet?"
But each cult, however unique it is, must worship _something_: something
identifiable, and identifiable _with_, for a fairly clearly conceptualisable
"purpose", not something hopelessly vague and open-ended like a "pantheon".
Anything more than seven is a committee.
> If we look into KoS, we find the (intentionally misleading)
Your "definitive sources" are getting thinner by the second, Joerg. ;-)
> autobiography of Minaryth
> Purple-turned-Blue "Events of my life". This scholar is generally
> regarded as Lhankor Mhy initiate, being a grey sage,
Yeah. Otherwise all those supplements he's written must be suspect.
Mind you, that'd explain a lot.
> sporting a goaty
Nick, have you been Illuminating this poor soul? ;-)
> Yet this worthy was initiated
> with the other boys at the age of 14, lived as a cottar (not
> thane, although elected before buying the oxen), owning a half-team
> of Oxen (until the Lunars take it), and plowing his half hide of fields.
> He fights in the fyrd (militia) like all the other Orlanth Thunderous- or
> Barntar-initiates.
Ivory-tower Academic in "Gets a Life" Shocker!
> Leaving literature level, and entering RQ-level again,
> it is highly unlikely that a 14-year-old boy will be accepted as initiate
> of Lhankor Mhy (which requires almost Rune Lord abilities, although in
> trainable skills)
Minaryth isn't a "typical" 14 year old, I'm sure. Someone given "a quill,
a way with words" at birth could be at 90% Write Sartarite by 14.
> yet he is initiated only once.
That he bothers to mention, at least. To obfuscate this point some,
consider that "Initiates" of Lhankor Mhy may not (in some places) even
be called such: he may have "graduated" to "Journeyman" status, or
whatever. Or he may not consider this "formality" worth mention in
comparison to his initiation into adulthood.
> (He can write, and is
> elected - presumably into the clan ring - at age 17, so his Lhankor
> Mhy link is not deniable.)
Doesn't mean he's a LM Initiate, at this stage.
> My easiest solutions: 1. the write-up in RoC is wrong
It probably is. But what do you mean, specifically? How does it
contradict the above history.
> or preferedly
> 2. the man was initiated into the pantheon
For one thing, 2 => 1. If pantheon initiation is true, Everything You
Knew About Initiation is Wrong. Unless you manage some miracle of
backward-compatibility in the (forthcoming?) details.
> and slowly developed his
> membership in good standing in both the Orlanth
Why are you so convinced he was an (active) initiate of Orlanth? I could
buy it under the "everyone is" theory, but see no need to suppose it
otherwise.
> and the Lhankor Mhy
> cult without further major rites of passage.
Cultic initiation is _not_ a rite of passage, as such, for adults: no
one argues that one can join a cult as an adult, of any age, so it
can hardly have the same ritual significance as passing into culthood
(for the first time), and Adulthood (for the only time).
> This is one example of
> initiation into the pantheon, with special emphasis on a deity not
> the primary "object" of initiation.
This is a pretty deuced clear-cut example of initiation into a single
deity, but paying attention to one's normal social, including other
religious, due. Next example?
> Likewise, any rural Orlanthi male specialises his worship, most farmers
> favour Barntar, while some choose the more exotic deities, like Heler,
> Harst and others, and simultaneously initiated to Orlanth. As boys,
> they were quasi-initiated to Voriof, and as elders past fighting age
> they might belong to another age group cult.
Joerg, you're turning into a closet Yelmite. ;-P Why do you assume
that this kind of solar-construction age-stage-cult pertains among the
Orlanthi?
> From the rules side, I argue that one minor cult within the Orlanth
> pantheon comes sooner or later with the standard religious initiation,
> and only additional specialized worship beyond the first
> necessitates additional initiation-POW sacrifice-tithes etc. (I can
> see Alex getting an attack of icks here .)
Yup. Are you counting "Orlanth" as one of the possible `free' "minor
cult[s]", or is everyone effectively "in" Orlanth _and_ a "minor cult"
_*and*_ a "pantheon initiate"?
If the first: Okay, I join my "free" cult . How does this differ
from me being Initiated into under the RQ3 rules? I'm also a
"pantheon initiate", but that just means I'm an associate of various
cults, which I'm associated to anyway via . This is bearable, but
seems pointless.
If the second: while true do Ick();
> (I'd still like to know by which name these people [the Solar hill
> barbarians throughout southern Peloria and northern Dragon Pass],
> outside of Lunar influence, know their solar deity.)
All of The Above? Yelmalio where Alda-Churi missionaries have got to
them, Elmal in the die-hard areas, and Antirius within the area of
Dara Happan influence. Possibly some more we haven't heard of, even.
> Lodril is a jack of all trades, warrior, plowman, crafter, advisor and
> fertility-bringer, just like Orlanth above, but also the Pelorian
> farmers have their specialist cults within general Lodril worship.
Yup, I agree with all this. GRAY does too: the Ten Sons and Servants
are surely all subcults of ol' squarehead.
> In all these cases, initiate status with the major male deity of the
> culture is the basic definition for all males, and likewise for females.
This seems like rather than "everyone is an initiate of the Theyalan
pantheon" (say), you are saying "everyone is an initiate of Orlanth or
Ernalda". I find the second much more palatable, though it may amount
to much the same thing in the end. You may counter that the picky
details aren't the same, to which I swiftly riposte: fudge 'em; or live
with 'em. (Course (b) is strongly indicated with all these powergamingly
selfless NPCs you seem to have.)
I find it strange that people can simultaneously propose, or agree with
propositions that initiation is a "theistic heroquest of personal
transformation" (to paraphrase a couple of people, and which I agree
with), and then suggest that the person who emerges from this is a
Generic Theyalan Pantheon Initiate. At any rate, this doesn't sit
well with my personal picture of the relationship between a Gloranthan
and hir God, of the nature of initiation and worship, n'stuff.
> Specialization (for the good of the community, and be it the base
> specialization like Barntar) isn't penalized with extra tithing, extra
> temple duty etc.
These aren't _penalties_, they are _consequences_. How do you plan on
getting something for nothing in the magical ecology? Are these time
and tithing requirements just something imposed by wicked game designers,
referees, and priests, or do they fulfill some game-world purpose? I'd
like to think of initiation to a god as being something a bit less mundane
than "specialisation", too.
And there seems something rather fishy about this whole idea of "multiple
specialisation", as such. Worshipping many entities makes you _less_
specialised, by any reasonable metric, surely.
> On the other hand, specialization for selfish gains
> deserves all the disadvantages the rules prescribe for "adventurer"
> characters.
How do you plan on telling the difference? If communities can get Free
Lunches, why not us, I hear your players crying.
> (Does this relieve your icks, Alex?)
No. I don't want to see powergaming peasants _or_ powergaming adventurers.
I think that where combined worship of two gods is a social need for a
community, then there will exist a "fudged" cult, combining or identifying
them. (Though not getting the full benefits of either.) If this need
or desire exists on an individual level: tuff, he has to join both cults,
and if one of them isn't worshipped at all in his area, dubbletuff.
Alex.
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: stuff
Message-ID: <9405101619.AA09904@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 10 May 94 04:19:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3957
Kuri and other Japanese RQers ask:
>Princess Anderida has Restore Health spells through Spell
>Trading. [yet]
>RQ Magic book says "Restore Health (to characteristics): One-use".
>GoG says "This spell (Spell Trading) allows the priest to trade one
>use of any of his reusable Rune spells..." [yet]
>RoC says Restore Health spells from C.A. are reusable to W.L. and
>W.V.
>Are there any Errata on the spells?
The intent of the rules is as follows: Restore Health is a one-use
spell. The Chalana Arroy (and Ernalda) Restore Health magics given to
Orlanth as an associate are NOT reusable, but one-use.
Spell Trading does not allow the trading of one-use spells
except under special circumstances. For instance, as a gamemaster I
would permit it if the Spell Trading was one-use for that purpose.
In Old RQ, one-use spells were traded all the time using
Spell Trading. This was an abuse that led to serious problems among
GMs in California (after a while, every cult had every spell), and
this is why the practice was stopped with RQ III.
Andre de Oliveira Fernandes asks:
>1. If the PCs are a mix of races (humans, elves, trolls), how could
>they get along?
It's up to the players. I have had elves, dwarfs, and trolls
ALL active in my adventuring party. The dwarf and troll became quite
good friends. Personal feelings are always allowed to override
"racial sentiment", in my experience. Of course, the troll still
hungered for, slew, and ate NPC dwarfs they encountered.
> . Elves sleep during winter. So are these PCs inactive for a
whole season?
Only brown elves sleep in winter. And yes, they're inactive
for a season (unless they have magic or drugs to prevent it). On the
other hand, they're continuously awake the rest of the year, so you
don't need to assign a night watch.
> . Trolls are night-active. Can they easily switch to a day-
>active life, or would they keep making noises at night (& nobody
>else could sleep anymore?)
Trolls can switch to a diurnal schedule with the same ease
and facility that humans can switch to a nocturnal one. Don't forget,
though, that dwarfs and elves are NOT necessarily diurnal. At least
elves, in my campaign, are mainly active at night.
> . What would dwarves eat?
Anything they can stomach. They're hardly gourmets. Dwarfs
stuck on the surface world eat what the rest of the party eats,
except cooked more worser.
> . Could such a party exist (for some time at least)?
Like I said, I had it in my own campaign.
> 2. The Elf hibernation problem: WHO takes care of the
>poisonthorn woods during winter? Does all kinds of elves MUST
>hibernate?
There must be some green elves present.
> 3. About Telmori. Do the Pure ones live among the Cursed Ones
>at the (Nangtoli... can't recall its name) Plateau? Are they
>enemies? Or are the Pure Ones secretly among the Cursed? If a Cursed
>One heroquests to get rid of his curse, would there be a proper God
>for it?
I don't believe in the Pure Ones, personally. Anyone running
in my campaigns won't find any.
I said;
>> For that matter, there are red-skinned entities that come from
>> the Red Moon, but are not necessarily related to the Red Vadeli.
Alex Ferguson asks:
>There are? Who, humans, the fabled Moon Elves, or...?
The Full Moon Legion (see Dragon Pass). I'm not sure what
color the skin of the Moon Elves is. Maybe they're a new
version/crappy imitation (depending on whether you're pro- or
anti-lunar) of the *sob* extinct White Elves?
Joerg asks re: Aldryami wars
>Would the aldryami involve weapons of darkness (voracious trollkin,
>molds) to defeat their opponents?
Yes. Well, maybe not trollkin, but molds and rusts and
vascular plant parasites, certainly.
>Would they use their archers on >each other? (Why else have elf
>bows?)
Occasionally. Bows are primarily intended as defensive
weapons against non-elves. After all, a bow is about the worst tool
imaginable to fight a plant. Even a sword or knife is better, though
an axe is heap good. Certainly elves themselves, though not their
trees, are vulnerable to bows, and occasional ambushes, bow duels,
and snipings can be expected to take place during an Aldryami "war".
At this point, I must again point out that I do not currently know of
anywhere in Glorantha that two groups of Aldryami are fighting one
another. There ought to be one, though. If only for my PCs to visit.
Back to Alex:
>trolls seem to be yet more monolithic in their identification
>of cult and society.
I concur. Much more so than any humans, who span the gamut
from solar to storm to earth cultures. The most non-darkness deity
that trolls worship in groups is Argan Argar.
>I find it difficult to imagine _all_ of Darktongue being
>instinctive.
That's only because you're human, and very little of your
language is instinctive. More's the pity. (Not that you're human,
that our language isn't instinctive, so we all can't share the same
one. In such a wondrous world, England and America and maybe even
Australia would share a common tongue.)
Joerg says:
>Pelorian life ... is dominated by clan-like familiy/in-law
>structures ... the Sultanates [are] ruled by important clans, such
>as the Eel-ariash. Dart competitions (not dart wars) are fought
>between clans of nobles rather than between individuals.
>Of the conquered people of the empire, the Dara Happans have
>extensive noble families (aka clans
I think using the word "clan" in reference to the Dara Happan
noble structure debases the category to some extent. While this is
purely a manner of terminology, I would prefer "clan" to be reserved
for more Orlanthi-like social structures. Of course, I'm already
hosed in this desire, since the Praxians "clans" are organized in a
quite different manner from the Orlanthi ones (for one thing, the
Praxian clan is solely political; members need not be related to one
another).
But I agree with Joerg's basic assumption that the enlarged
family unit is the building bloc of human society. Even though I have
a nit to pick with his use of "clan".
Further, I believe that the basic bloc of troll society is
not the clan, but the nuclear family as ruled by the eldest female.
As this family grows, it becomes more and more clan-like, but I think
that at least among uncivilized trolls, when the common ancestress
dies, the "clan" breaks up into units, each adhering to their own
"oldest mother".
---------------------
From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069)
Subject: Darktongue, Insects, and YOU
Message-ID: <01HC4WTF57029JDPRL@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 9 May 94 07:56:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3958
>I find it difficult to imagine _all_ of Darktongue being
>instinctive:
So do I. I like the idea of having a core language that IS
instinctive, though, much as you suggested. I usually played the
language as a combination of sounds (some of which were ultrasonic or
close to it) and motions (sign language). This had the advantage of
allowing trolls to communicate to some extent with strangers, but had
the disadvantage of limiting the language when one's arms are full or
otherwise busy, as in battle. (I have a deaf friend with whom I
juggle...we discovered quickly how difficult it can be to juggle and
sign at the same time. ;)
>hardwired fast fourier transform
Hmmmm. I like that! I recall reading somewhere that some trolls
speak about a half-octave lower than trolls from other regions.
Perhaps they have different constants programmed in. heh heh heh....
Now, on to another topic: I bear my ignorance to you all and admit
that I have *NO* information on timinits and the like. Can someone
tell me something about them, please?
--Scott
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Pharaoh, shapes and metal limbs
Message-ID:
Date: 10 May 94 16:39:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3959
Nick in X-RQ-ID: 3941
> Is the Pharaoh a Blue Vadeli??
Not in body, since that comes from the winners of a tournament of
Luck and Death. In spirit - who knows.
Although I think the Rightarm populace would remember whether
Belintar the Stranger appeared as a blue-skinned (i.e.
sea-descended, in addition to sea-brought) human.
Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 3944
> They COULD take shapes, but were still Shapestrong: they were not bound to
> a particular shape until Light burned off most of their powers.
Hmm. First time I hear of this concept.
Yet most beings able to change their shape have a true Form (Rune?).
Isn't shapechange in Glorantha bound to the Mobility Rune?
It is true that darkness spirits and elementals (dehori, shadows, hags)
can change the shape of their dark matter, but so can all spirits and
elementals. Do you want to imply that before the slaying of Yelm the
dark people could form pseudopods and tentacles at will? Or could they
assume given shapes, according to given forms?
If so, who couldn't? Most Hsunchen magic is centered around
shapeshifting between human and beast form. I mentioned Triolina
before. All nymphs (tied to nearly all elements) can. Trickster can.
Chaos can (and is partly defined by this...).
[me:]
>>Like the famous iron hand for Goetz von Berlichingen, or a living limb
>>(like in Moorcock's Corum Saga)?
> The latter. The limbs are described as movable; Arazbarn crushes trolls
> in his for example.
FYI, Goetz's replacement for his oath-hand was partly movable; while it
couldn't grip by itself, it could be made to grip an object (like a sword)
put into it. It was a marvel of mechanic, worthy of dwarven craftsmanship.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Trying to conclude our struggle
Message-ID:
Date: 10 May 94 18:38:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3960
Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3948
Alex make clear that our discusison get muddled up because we were
discussing three or more topics at a time, with a lot of BTWs inserted.
Low initiate status - Alex disagrees with me.
Cultural vs. religious initiation: Alex separates these, I don't.
One cult vs. one pantheon: Alex poses for "one man, one god", I advocate
"call upon the right god for the job".
And we have different views about Sartarite worship.
> In particular, I think there should be a greater stress on associate
> worship, a recognition that many, if not most, cults have some kind of
> meaningful "pre-initiate" (call it what you will) status, and perhaps
> also a a certain ammount of creative fudging of what this absolutist
> notion of "being an initiate of" a cult might mean, and consist of, in
> different circumstances.
I'll sign this as a peace treaty. I'm not yet convinced, though.
WRT included texts: Someone kick me when it gets too bad.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de