Bell Digest v940512p1

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 12 May 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: Orlanth Miscellaneous
Message-ID: 
Date: 11 May 94 15:37:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3975

Alex in X-RQ-ID: 3964

I wanted to stop writing about initiation. Oh, well, another Looong piece...

[transferable membership of Orlanth subcults, eps. to O.Rex]
> No, certainly not.  (Not that I have a writeup handy.)

Neither do I. Does there exist one in an obscure magazine like Wyrm's 
Footnotes or Different Worlds? If so, when will these become publically 
available?

> The trouble here
> is that the term "subcult" is an inherently ambiguous one, covering about
> three (any advance on three?) quasi-distinct concepts:  a) an Aspect:
> eg, Lightbringer, or Thunderous, etc;  b) an initiatory status, or
> "stage", eg Storm Voice, Initiate;  and c) a "subservient cult", such
> as the Sandals of Darkness.  The term is convenient to describe each
> of these, but we need to keep distinct, at least some of the time.

Exactly the problem. I'd toss in a fourth, the associate cult, and arrive 
at pantheistic worship, as probably was done among the Theyalans - at least 
you seem to imply this, below. 

> I agree with Orlanth-Barntar, and perhaps Orlanth Berserker (the pre-3rd-
> age subcult previously discussed?), but the others sound dubious, for
> various reasons.

So we have Humakt and Urox as early subcults of Orlanth; Heler, Mastakos, 
Barntar, the Thunder Brothers still are; probably even Elmal was at the 
Dawning. There are the Lightbringer subcults of Orlanth. So a Dawn Age 
Theyalan could join Orlanth and get the whole pantheon, right? (Can you 
feel the ick creeping up? )

> But each cult, however unique it is, must worship _something_: something
> identifiable, and identifiable _with_, for a fairly clearly conceptualisable
> "purpose", not something hopelessly vague and open-ended like a "pantheon".

How about a cult worshipping Orlanth and his companions and friends, each 
of them at the appropriate time, and for the appropriate benefit?

> Anything more than seven is a committee.

A ring, to stick with Orlanthi nomenclature. A necklace, for Pamaltelans.

> Your "definitive sources" are getting thinner by the second, Joerg. ;-)

I fail to see any of yours... ;-)

>> sporting a goaty

> Nick, have you been Illuminating this poor soul? ;-)

goatee, for Rashoran's sake. Remember I'm neither Sassenach nor colonial, 
but a continental dabbling in Tradetalk.

> Minaryth isn't a "typical" 14 year old, I'm sure.  Someone given "a quill,
> a way with words" at birth could be at 90% Write Sartarite by 14.

By a "gift and geas" mechanic? How do I create such unusual characters as 
PCs?

[LM initiation]
> Or he may not consider this "formality" worth mention in
> comparison to his initiation into adulthood.

If it is a formality, then why waste a pointa POW for it? 

> Why are you so convinced he was an (active) initiate of Orlanth?  I could
> buy it under the "everyone is" theory, but see no need to suppose it
> otherwise.

Everyone tending the land, fighting in the fyrd (militia), and sitting 
in the ring of elders would be a worshipper of Orlanth to no little extent. 
An active worshipper is what we call initiate, right?

> Cultic initiation is _not_ a rite of passage, as such, for adults: no
> one argues that one can join a cult as an adult, of any age, so it
> can hardly have the same ritual significance as passing into culthood
> (for the first time), and Adulthood (for the only time).

Hey, cultic intitiation defines your afterlife, your Runes, your life. 
Your standing in family, clan and tribe changes, you get access to 
radically different positions. _Not_ a rite of passage? Tell that the 
guy initiated to Eurmal, for instance.

> This is a pretty deuced clear-cut example of initiation into a single
> deity, but paying attention to one's normal social, including other
> religious, due. 

I.e. to the pantheon, ot the temple. You are initiated (=introduced into 
a significant level of the cult secrets) by doing all your social 
and religious due.

> Next example?

None. Not on the Daily, anyway.

> Why do you assume
> that this kind of solar-construction age-stage-cult pertains among the
> Orlanthi?

Because it is said so in KoS, in the entries for Voria (p.53) and Voriof 
(p.54). Because I'm Nicked properly. Because it makes sense to me. Because 
I have found nothing to speak against this, apart from a lonely Scotsman. 

> Are you counting "Orlanth" as one of the possible `free' "minor
> cult[s]", or is everyone effectively "in" Orlanth _and_ a "minor cult"
> _*and*_ a "pantheon initiate"?

> If the first: Okay, I join my "free" cult .  How does this differ
> from me being Initiated into  under the RQ3 rules?  I'm also a
> "pantheon initiate", but that just means I'm an associate of various
> cults, which I'm associated to anyway via .  This is bearable, but
> seems pointless.

We are sorely in need of a Barntar cult write-up and its exact ties to 
the cults of Ernalda and Orlanth, as well as its role under Lunar 
government and how much it counts toward Orlanth worship.

Let's take an Orlanth initiate in recently conquered Pavis County who 
wants to avoid additional trouble with the Lunar occupators. Living 
in the upper River of Cradles, he makes a life out of farming and plowing, 
which makes him essentially somewhat of an initiate of Barntar and the 
Grain Goddess.

All (85%) Orlanthi males are initiated to Orlanth (KoS p.245f).

Is this worthy associated with e.g. Eiritha, Babeester Gor or other 
associates of Ernalda? Since he uses oxen to plow, possibly with Eiritha. 
If he tends an orchard, maybe even with Aldrya? Is he associated with 
the Lightbringers? With Heler? With Mastakos? Urox? Humakt? Valind?

All of these, with varying degrees. If you can express this in 
the one man - one cult scheme, you are well off. I can't really.

> If the second:  while true do Ick();

You ought to go and see a White Woman, Alex, maybe she will be able 
to cure this malaise. 

> I find it strange that people can simultaneously propose, or agree with
> propositions that initiation is a "theistic heroquest of personal
> transformation" [...]
> and then suggest that the person who emerges from this is a
> Generic Theyalan Pantheon Initiate.

I heroquest in my (cultic) initiation rite to get my place at Orlanth's 
Stead.
If I am to plow the land, I ask Barntar to show me the knack, and when I 
sow the seed I fetch it from his wife, Esra. To care for my oxen I learn 
from Eiritha, and I thank her for that. If I help defend the stead, I get 
armed the way Heler showed me, so I thank him.
If I am to deal with horses, I'll work at the stable, under the 
guidance of Elmal and Ernalda's horse-loving daughter, his wife. Yet when 
a horse loses a shoe, I visit Bonesmith two huts away and let him fix that, 
or when the horse gets sick, I fetch Chalana Arroy to help my charge.

Whenever a specific problem is at hand, I worship the appropriate 
member of Orlanth's Stead. Worship is a matter of giving and taking in 
a gritty culture like that of the Orlanthi. If I want assistance in a 
matter of love and courting, I can either fall back to Orlanth's youthful 
role in his wooing of Ernalda (which is perfectly well for a dalliance with 
an experienced woman), or I ask Uleria (or even Eurmal) for charm and good 
looks to get that maiden from the neighbouring stead into the hay (where 
Orlanth's proven method will most likely fail). This needn't be measurable 
magic by rules criteria (although RQ:AiG has very recommendably included 
minor blessing spells and ceremonies which cover just this), but it is one 
element of this individual's worship - of Orlanth's Stead and its deities, 
heroes and spirits.

In fantasy literature, most authors have their characters invoke a deity 
fit for the task at hand whenever they undertake something of unsure 
success (a situation where the roleplayer reaches for his dice). This 
gives an authentic feel. I want to have this element in my roleplaying as 
well, thrown in by the players when I am GM. To make them do so, I try to 
adapt the rules, because that's the easiest way to get them into my line.

(If I should succeed to gather a group of players who do so by themselves, 
without any need of assistance by any outward source, I will consider 
myself extremely blessed and lucky. I still have to find them, though...)

I use the pantheon initiation as an attempt to make the player realize 
that there are a plethora of potentially benevolent entities which might 
be helpful in specific situations. If being an initiate is close to 
roleplaying one's chosen deity, then asking one's patron's recorded 
helpers, the members of his pantheon, for help is playing in role. If 
my mundane occupation lacks a direct role model in the pantheon, then 
I have to fudge my role model form the existing ones.

I am a male adult, so my role model is that of the male adult - Orlanth.
I live in a village where everyone, including myself, plows a piece of 
land, so my role model includes the plowman - Barntar.
I happen to be the village's clerk, in that I am responsible to collect 
tithing and feorm for temple and chieftain (Issaries) and to record 
the village history of economy (Lhankor Mhy).

My role is a complex one. I could call myself a Harst initiate, but 
there is no such independent cult. If there was, it would be weak, and 
my exclusion from the village's worship would weaken the village as well.

My society is a fairly pragmatic one, avoiding unnecessary losses for 
matters of form. As a result, I will be accepted as Orlanth-cum-Barntar 
initiate for village purposes, as well as Issaries or Lhankor Mhy 
representative should need arise, be it mundane (the village elders 
need to pen a letter to the Lunar occupation force) or spiritual (a 
ceremony requires a spokesman and Issaries type).

My neighbour is responsible for the village cistern, so he combines Heler 
with the standard Orlanth-cum-Barntar, and my cousin living over there 
does most of the reparature jobs coming up in the village, be it carpentry, 
brick-laying or red-smithing. In the rituals, he also represents the 
makers. Chief of the village militia is old Venharl over there, which 
makes him the logical choice for the warrior in our rites as well.

If viewed strictly by the rules, only old Venharl would qualify as Orlanth 
initiate, the rest might as Barntar initiates. But how should they perform 
their Sacred Time rites with but one real Orlanth guy, and one who is 
getting too old for all of this short LBQ business? A certain flexibility 
in these matters is mandatory.

One might "fudge the cults", as Alex proposes. Makes me ick.

[Tithing, temple duties]
> These aren't _penalties_, they are _consequences_.  How do you plan on
> getting something for nothing in the magical ecology? 

I don't. I make my religious life resemble my mundane life, and get 
initiated once to do so. If my mundane life changes without my conscious 
decision to do so, I expect my religious life to follow suit within its 
possibilities. Thus I have the farmer turning warrior in times of danger 
as the mainstream member of Orlanthi society. In RQC, these are called 
initiates of Barntar, in KoS they are called initiates of Orlanth, assuming 
the Volsaxi Orlanth-worshippers fit both bills.

> Are these time
> and tithing requirements just something imposed by wicked game designers,
> referees, and priests, or do they fulfill some game-world purpose? 

There is _one_ religious tithe to the temple (community, parish, whatever) 
I am initiated to. I pay just this tithe, and the tax (or kings food, feorm 
in Old English, or whowever you call it) to the clan/tribe/king/occupation 
forces/whatever else mundane authority. I live off the meagre rest I am 
allowed to keep for the family.

I work for my temple the appropriate time, be it as plowman on temple lands, 
as a guard before the temple, as a minister in service, or whatever.

As long as I don't change my life willfully, I expect these dues not to 
change, whichever aspect of the religion I pursue. If circumstances make 
me the reeve and keeper of trade goods in my village because my barn 
happens to have free space, I get drawn into Asrelia's and Issaries' cults. 
My additional responsibility makes certain magic natural for my position, 
I live the magic, I heroquest it daily, so it will be granted to my by the 
temple, in this case Hide Wealth and/or Lock. If my position involves 
bringing the collected tithe from my village through dangerous nomad land 
to the temple in New Pavis, I will be a likely candidate to receive 
Path Watch as well - for this mission, only. I heroquest this by doing it.

> I'd
> like to think of initiation to a god as being something a bit less mundane
> than "specialisation", too.

Could you specify your view?

> Worshipping many entities makes you _less_
> specialised, by any reasonable metric, surely.

Expressed by Cult Lore skills, my character above is likely to have 
89% Orlanth (Thunderous) and Ernalda Lore (he's pious), 85% Barntar Lore, 
65% Grain Goddess Lore, 55% Issaries Lore, 35% Asrelia Lore, and quite 
low skill in say Mastakos Lore or O.Adventurous Lore.

>> On the other hand, specialization for selfish gains 
>> deserves all the disadvantages the rules prescribe for "adventurer" 
>> characters.

> How do you plan on telling the difference?  If communities can get Free
> Lunches, why not us, I hear your players crying.

Easy. Don't do it for selfish reasons, but for the good of the community, 
and you'll get preferred treatment. You want to learn a Shield spell? 
Sorry, we cannot spare any priest to teach you. You want to learn or have 
cast Asrelia's cavern to protect the communal grain stored in your barn? 
Sure, boy, we'll do so in a moment.

Generally adventuring magic is frowned upon by village or town priests, 
it upsets their magical ecology by abusing their ressources. If people 
want adventuring magic, they'd better get it the hard way - make a 
pilgrimage, or such. This still cuts the financial benefit of the 
village priest, but at least it leaves his spiritual account largely 
unchanged.

This the reason why I don't really like David Cheng's Rune Power system 
for divine magic. It smacks too much of presacrificed DI (like for RQ2 
priests) to me.

> I don't want to see powergaming peasants _or_ powergaming adventurers.
> I think that where combined worship of two gods is a social need for a
> community, then there will exist a "fudged" cult, combining or identifying
> them.  (Though not getting the full benefits of either.)  If this need
> or desire exists on an individual level: tuff, he has to join both cults,
> and if one of them isn't worshipped at all in his area, dubbletuff.

If his position involves even more such aspects, the cult gets fudged more. 
The sum of the fudged cults is the number of pantheon initiates.

BTW, did the White Woman cure your icks about pantheon initiates? Then 
send her around, I have a bad case caused by a village full of fudged 
cultists, not a single one worshipping a published cult.


-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: rowe@soda.berkeley.edu (Eric Rowe)
Subject: The Pavis City Council: Some Information.
Message-ID: <199405110817.BAA26929@soda.berkeley.edu>
Date: 10 May 94 18:17:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3968


The Pavis City Council

The city council of Pavis was created by Duke Dorasar and the other
founders in 1550. The council's primary responsibility in running the
government is managing the economy. They also appoint judges, levy
taxes, distribute food resources, keep the peace, delegate special
authority, schedule construction, organize celebrations, keep the
streets clear and maintain a sanitary city.

At the time of Dorasar's founding the council was made to act as
something like an Orlanthi ring of advisors. Of course, the situation
in Pavis was quite unusual, but Dorasar showed great flexibility and
created a powerful working council. At the head, representing Orlanth,
sat Dorasar. During Dorasar's life this was also the mayoral position,
but since his passing the mayor can be anyone on the council. Every
five years the citizenry vote for the current council member they wish
to lead them.

The council members themselves are appointed by the traditional
family, religious and mercantile groupings within the city. Each is
appointed until replaced and sits in one of the original seats created
by Duke Dorasar. The original seats are as follows.

Orlanth - Duke Dorasar 
Mostal - Ginkizzie, King of the Dwarfs 
Zola Fel - Ingilli the Fisher 
Yelmalio - Varthanis Brighthelm 
Humakt - Olgkarth Arrow-eye of the Zebra people 
Waha - Gorgar Bluecloak of the Sable people 
Pavis - Orlof Manisson, Son of Pavis 
She who lights the way - Remains empty, but represents the whole
council.

The current council is very conservative, especially since the
Merchant's guild gained influence with the appointment of Kolli the
Portly. The main focus is maintaining price balances for stable
profits for all. In 1620 the seats are as follows.

Orlanth - Brygga Scissortongue of the Garhound family
Mostal - Ginkizzie the Dwarf
Zola Fel - Hallarax the Singer of the Ingilli family
Yelmalio - Kolli the Portly, head of the Jewelers guild
Humakt - Derenx the Handsome, head Weaponsmaster
Waha - Kalf Haldelson, head of the Bronze Workers guild
Pavis - Benderri, Son of Pavis
She who lights the way - Remains empty.

The Garhound family took over the Orlanth seat when the Lunar invasion
killed or drove out most of the descendants of Dorasar. The Garhounds
are also Sartarite in origin and rivaled the heirs of Dorasar in size
and infuence. Those few remnants of the Dorasar family that survived
have married into or otherwise been absorbed into the Garhound family.
They remain violently anti-Lunar.

The Mostal seat remains with the long lived Ginkizzie. Rumor has it he
plans to resign soon and let another Dwarf take his place, but no one
has been able to work out the Dwarf politics enough to figure out his
successor.

The Zola Fel seat has not left the hands of the powerful Ingilli
family.  The current Head, Hallarax, leads the Imperials and favors
the idea of Pavis entering the Lunar pantheon.

Karial the Pure has recently abdicated his council seat and it has
been taken over by the Kolli the Portly, who leads the City Peacers as
well as the Jewelers guild. Others within the Suntown community are
outraged at this development.

Derenx the Handsome represents all the Weaponmasters in the city. This
seat has always been filled by a Sword of Humakt. He is the most Lunar
friendly of the Humakti.

The Waha seat remained in the hands of the nomads for 22 years. In
1572 Nomads tried to open the gates to friends on the outside and
betrayed the city. The seat has since been filled by an appointee of
the merchant's guild and currently resides with the powerful Bronze
Worker's guild.

The Pavis seat is for the High Priest of Pavis. The current High
Priest, Benderri, has sat in the seat for almost 30 years.

She who lights the way. Those who favor the Lunar way have pointed out
many times the similarities between this seat and the glorious light
of the Red Moon.



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From: pyspas@midge.bath.ac.uk (Paul Snow)
Subject: Rune Order
Message-ID: 
Date: 11 May 94 12:09:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3969


Hi. I haven't made my Library Use roll for this one so don't be too hard 
on me..

	Is there any fundamental importance to the order of the runes 
atributed to gods in GoG?  In order to help new players get a grasp on 
the diversity of worship in Glorantha I thought it might be useful to 
play with the assigned order. Something along the lines of ..

	Ok. Orlanth has Air, Motion and Mastery. (There are six permutations 
of the order here.)  An initiate of Orlanth Rex considers the order 
and importance of Orlanths attributes to be Mastery, Air, Motion whilst 
a vagabond adventurer worships Orlanth Adventurous whose attributes are
Motion, Mastery, Air.

	Clearly this doesn't work as well when there are fewer runes but
whilst the discussion of Humakti worshippers in Tales tells us that no two
Humakti are alike. Would it help players to focus on the nature of their
Humakti character by deciding whether he is of the Truth Death affilition (
Dirty Harry ?) or the Death Truth followers. etc.

Any reasons why this is a Bad Thing?

Paul Snow ( gathering GMing momentum for a first Glorantha campaign)

PS Did any of the British readers see the repeat of Red Dwarf on friday.
(can't remember the episode title) I thought that Lister with his fear
removed was a good model for a Storm Bull berserker out looking for Chaos.
Does anyone have any good analogies to use in this vein?

       

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From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: METALS and Convulsion FFG
Message-ID: <9405111143.AA22427@Sun.COM>
Date: 11 May 94 11:36:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3970


Hi All
	Just some quick comments.

1) Enchanting Metals
	I agree with Nick's comments about Lhankor Mhy's ability to 
	Enchant Iron but would like to add a few of my own.  

	a) I think that at one time (RQ2) LM was known as the *son* of Mostal.  	He definately has close and friendly links with the Mostali.  
	This is where he gets his knowledge of Alchemy.  
	I suspect that his attitude towards discovery and preservation of 
	knowledge is as close as humans get to Mostali attitudes.  

	b) Passing on knowledge IS the LM cult speciality, thus if one of 
	the cult gains some knowledge it will generally become accessable 
	to the rest of the cult (assuming that you can understand the 
	catalogue system of the library).  

	Annilla should have Enchant Silver (as a Lunar Goddess) NOT enchant 
	lead.  Selenium IF it exists should be HER metal not the Red Goddess'.
	NB her lunes are Selenes!

	Elmal should have Enchant Gold or Silver NOT Enchant Iron.  
	He is a Sky/Sun god not a Storm God.  His worshippers might be able 
	to get Enchant Iron from Orlanth as associates.  Remember in the 
	Elmal Hill of Gold Orlanth gives Elmal his weapons!

2) CONVULSION 94

	The Free Form Game "How the West was One" is now completely and TOTALLY
	FULL.  Actually heavily over subscribed.  PLease do not bother to send 
	in any applications if you have not done so already.  The only 
	exceptions to this are people outside the UK who can offer VERY 
	CONVINCING REASONS as to why their postage was SO delayed.  Even then 
	while we will try to shoe-horn them in the chances are pretty small 
	and we offer absolutely NO GUARNTEES that they will get in.  
	Successful people will be notified in PR3 so don't count your chickens 
	before then even if you have already sent your form in.  We have had 
	112 applications for about 70 places so there will be quite a few 
	disappointments; sorry.  

	If anyone out their has a FFG that they would like to run at Convulsion 	please get in contact with us as we should be able to make the space 
	available and there are likely to be a good number of punters 
	interested, especially if it is set in Glorantha.  

	Bye for now
			Lewis