From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 12 May 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott) Subject: Trick orI Message-ID: <9405111651.AA02747@vinga.hum.gu.se> Date: 11 May 94 17:56:25 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3979 Alex: >Steady on there... I'm absolutely _not_ suggesting a Quorum of 75 Eurmal >Acolytes at every Holy Day. So does this mean you agree that the 75-inits limit is bunk in general? >We were debating whether _Eurmal_ is a Murderer, not >whether _some_ Trickster aspect is, which issomewhat evident from >GoG. (Though my vote was "yes", anyway.) Joerg just sent me another version of Eurmal (written by yet another person - I've forgotten who), which includes _every_ aspect (as far as my limited memory informs me, at any rate), essentially implying that Eurmal is the granddaddy of all Trickster deities (though the write-up text explicitly denies this, I tend to trust what I read between the lines more). Joerg: perhaps you should send it to Alex as well, or perhaps even post itI >it's patently Not Official. I _could_ see that, you know. It's just that the poster's way of expressing it was muddled, and I succumbed to my old vice of irony. I'd call myself a member of Sarcastics Anonymous, if only the acronym wasn't so impossible. :-) >> Essentially, it gives eurmalites an >> _official_ place in the orlanthi order of things, which seems a bit >> non-trickster to me. The consensus seems to be that they are tolerated at >> best. > >The Official Place is what _gets_ them tolerated. Eurmal is probably the >most important deity in the LBQ apart from Orlanth. (And easily the most >important in the LBJ.) He must, as a matter of cosmic necessity, >have such a place: it just happens to be a rather smelly, leaky, downtrodden >one. OK, for the sin of sloppy expression, I deserved that reprimand. :-) By "official", I didn't mean "recognized", I meant "formalized". I.e. when Eurmal gets a _priesthood_ that seemingly has a set job description, a salary, a uniform, etcetera, I think we're getting away from the spirit of Trickster. This is a problem with the other write-up I mention above as well: it divides tricksters into initiates and priests. I happen to _like_ the anarcho-democratic do-it-yourself tricksters of GoG! Oh BTW, I _do_ agree completely when it comes to Eurmal's importance. >> I agree that the rules, _as they stand_, lead to absurdities when you try >> to extrapolate a society from them. But couldn't one work from the other >> direction? > >This is the (alleged) point of _Glorantha: the Game_. And probably >(one of) the (many) reason(s) why it's not rushing onto our shelves. Chuckle. But seriously, what I'm talking about is no more than the familiar idea (basic to at least half the discussions on this list) that rules which seem to have an impact on the functioning of a society (in RQ most notably the religious rules) should be modified if they lead to dysfunctional societies. I realize that what you wanted to do with your posting was to kill the aforementioned half of the discussions, thus reducing the amount of verbiage we have to wade through every time we check our mail. But I feel that simply declaring the discussion to be nonsensical will not do the trick. Clarifying it a bit might help, though. I agree that many arguments that seem to be about RQ rules are 'really' about Gloranthan Reality, i.e. "What is the nature of the reality we're trying to simulate here?", and if there could be some reconcilement on _this_ level, it would be easier to answer the question "How should we simulate it?". When you argue for a complete _separation_ of these questions, it seems you're saying that RQ as a rules system should be governed completely by considerations of (power-)gaming balance. Somehow, I don't think that's what you _want_ to say, is it? Personally, I think it's important to keep these questions _distinct_ from each other in an argument, while still admitting that they are inter-connected. You could argue against this that I'm not very distinct myself, but that's just despicable _ad hominem_ sophistry. :-) Jonas --------------------- From: 100102.3001@CompuServe.COM (Peter J. Whitelaw) Subject: Citizen Cults. Message-ID: <940511224834_100102.3001_BHJ48-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 11 May 94 22:48:34 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3980 Nick says, in response to myself: >Seems eminently sensible to me. That's how I'd treat Lunar organisations of >almost any size (department, regiment, empire) so as to get the theocratic >Empire's feel across. Like, I think Citizen of the Lunar Empire is the lay >member status in the Red Emperor's cult; anyone else like that? (This Q. is >especially aimed at the Equal of the Apostles, MOB). Or is it too much a >mechanical/literal interpretation of RuneQuest's flawed cult rules? In answer to 'anyone else like that?'. Yes. The small group I play with/GM for has come round to this way of thinking. One of our number (Jon Drake, who will be at Convulsion) has run a non-Gloranthan campaign for twelve years. The area he is currently developing is centred on an Emperor Worship type-society. It has dispensed with the current 'cult' mechanics in favour of a looser, more flexible system which has is the result of the socio-political dynamics of the culture rather than the other way round i.e. the tail is not wagging the dog. Jon may very soon be getting a modem so I will leave it to him to expound at greater length. He is also eminently more qualified to do so as it is his proprietary material (he is also a classicist which I am not). I hope he will forgive me though for offering a 'tempter' from his notes... >Tarsenian Gods > >With one or two exceptions the gods of the Tarsenians are formalised and >immutable entities. Their myths are fixed in a legendary past, and retain their >relevance because they explain the nature and purpose of each god and show >how the various forces at work in human society interact with one another. The >myths foster the rituals which are the centre-piece of public festivals. In these >rituals humans take on divine roles in acting out the myths and in this way the >truths that myths convey are reinforced in the minds of participants and >spectators. Also, >Cults and Temples > >There are usually many small cults dedicated to each of the major divinities of the >Tarsenian pantheon, and there may be several cults worshipping the same >divinity in different ways even within the same community. In Zarina, for example, >there are said to be 8 different cults of Tethis, each with their own membership >restrictions, priests, rules, regulations and rites, only one of which is directly >associated with the goddess' temple there. The number of initiates in any cult >could be as few as 10 or as many as 1000. Most cults are local foundations, and >the god they worship therefore carries an epithet of the place of worship or the >occupation of the worshippers - such as Zarinian Tethis, or Tethis the of the Water >Carriers. Even so, a cult might be particularly successful, perhaps gain control of >a temple or holy site, and thereby begin to attract initiates from far and wide. It is >quite normal for cultists to choose to exclude from their rites devotees of the same >divinity initiated in a different cult. To gain acceptance there is usually some >lesser form of initiation ceremony that can be gone through which bypasses the >POW sacrifice normally required. Basically, Initiation is for the devoted and they may gain some tangible benefit by undergoing such. Such benefits might be in terms of Skill/stat bonuses or Covert Spirit Possession (see Vikings, Gods without Godar) rather than Divine Magic. Since officiation at a holy festival is, literally, a ceremonial role it is not necessary that the leader of such a ceremony be an initiate (devotee) although, of course, he may well be. Being an initiate of one religion does not necessarily exclude one from others. 'Priests' may well serve as officiaries at the festivals of many religions. N.B. here, a cult and a religion are not the same. Many cults, each with their own idiosyncracies, may constitute a religion. Like I said, this is a pretty basic intro' to the concepts. Any thoughts? I expect Jon would be keen to discuss further at Convulsion. I certainly would. All the best, Peter --------------------- From: ppofandt@interconnect.com.au (Paul Pofandt) Subject: Game Mechanichs Questions Message-ID: <199405112141.AA29254@tulpi.interconnect.com.au> Date: 12 May 94 17:41:58 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3981 G'day I've go a couple of questions that the _Learned Gentlemen_ (ladies too, if there are any), may be able to answer for me. Now... In RQ3, Shamans would seem to build a _toolkit_ of spirits by summoning a random spirit of a specific type (with the summon ritual) and interorgating them as to thier abilities and name. They could then be used or released and summoned later by name. This summoning process seems completely at odds to the RQ4 (2.0) shaman ritual of traveling the spirit planes in search of the required spirits. Can anyone explain things to me? Also, I've noticed that a number of item in the game mechanics rely on the state of the weather. For instance, Sunspear must be cast in direct daylight, Cloud Call/Clear change the amount of cloud cover ect. does anyone have a method of simulating weather conditions and alows for seasonal adjustment. The method I've been using is to roll 10d10 and add a modifier for seasonal conditions. (eg. +50 for Rainy season to -50 for dry) The resultant value is an indicator of average daily cloud cover (as a percentage, greater than 100% indicated unusualy dense cloud). A second %tile roll determines rainfall (Cloud cover - % is proportional to amount of rainfall). Now this is a fairly clumbsy and dice orientated method but using a spreadsheet you can generate a whole week/season/year of results. However, I'd be interested in any other methods, should someone have developed such methods. Another question regarding Sub Cults. What is required to join a sub cult? Is another POW sacrifice required? Is a member of a sub cult also a member of the parent cult? I'd hope someone has the answers to my questions. Paul. -- Paul Pofandt | Brisbane, Australia. | | 42 ppofandt@interconnect.com.au | --------------------- From: garydj@ditard.dit.gov.au Subject: Berra Thengan Message-ID: <9404127687.AA768776115@ditard.dit.gov.au> Date: 12 May 94 11:55:15 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3982 According to Graeme Lindsell, a few months ago there was some discussion of why Berra Thengan in Risklands is a member of Vinga the Adventuress when he is a man. Graeme and Nick Brooke suggested I post my idea for a solution. I think Berra Thengan is homosexual. In some cultures, homosexuals find their place in society by adopting some or all of the roles of the other sex. In Glorantha, this may be reflected in men who join women's cults and women who join men's cults. Of course, not all cults are strongly identified with the role of one sex or the other and many such cults provide a role model for members of either sex. Graeme also notes that both Berra Thengan and Renekot are bachelors... --------------------- From: guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org Subject: METAL Message-ID: <9405120021.A9726wk@chrysalis.org> Date: 11 May 94 22:21:39 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3983 Martin Crim asks why Lhankor Mhy (or is it Lankhor Mhy?) gives his cult the Enchant Iron spell. Isn't it because his father is Mostal, and the Mostali created iron? The ability to create superior weapons also probably led to the development of their "martial arm", the Sword Sages (at least according to an acquaintance of mine, Simon Swordsage, Fighting Phenomenologist). The Mostali/Lankhor Mhy connection is apparent in Pavis, which has an abundance of both Dwarfs and Sword Sages. On the matter of the Air runic metal: I agree that this is confusing, and could use some clarification. Perhaps silver is the metal of the Middle Air, which Orlanth claims by right of kingship; the true runic metal for the Air element is either bronze or tin. The Red Goddess usurped silver as her own metal she ascended to the Middle Air. GUY HOYLE guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org ---------------------