From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 13 May 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069) Subject: Timinits and stuff Message-ID: <01HC8TGHL2W29GZH1E@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com> Date: 12 May 94 03:03:52 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3984 Thanks for the info on timinits, Sandy. Much obliged. I made a (cursory) run of my local gaming shops, and I found NOTHING for Runequest! (Well, okay, I found Sun County, but I already have that one.) Does anyone have the address of a decent game shop near Cedar Rapids, Iowa, or one that will mail me a catalog? I'm supposedly on Avalon Hill's mailing list, but I hear nothing from them. (And since I'm moving into my new home this weekend, I suspect that I never will.) --Scott --------------------- From: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 12 May 1994, part 2 Message-ID: <9405121511.AA14514@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov> Date: 12 May 94 15:11:14 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3985 With regard to Sandy's comments on food: I agree that the link between monotony of the basic staples and spiciness seems well-founded. People will add just about anything to their food to make it more interesting; Mexican cooking is illustrative. While some cuisines, for example Szechwan, combine both great variety and great spiciness, these (as Sandy points out) are probably derived from simpler peasant fare which was centered around one or two basic foods (for Szechwan, rice and noodles). One exception to the "unvaried staples means spicy food" idea in Glorantha might be Sun County. I have always viewed them as having mostly a barley-based diet; yet I picture the stoic Sun Domers as making a virtue out of the simplicity and predictability of their diet rather than seeking to vary it. "I raise good barley and strong sons for the glory of Yelmalio.". Any thoughts? I have always pictured wealthy Lunars as eating a diet reminiscent of wealthy romans, including the decadent excesses seen in some households in late imperial era. I imagine such things as High Llama Necks stuffed with Zebra Sausage and the like. Brandon --------------------- From: ROBERTSON@delphi.intel.com (Roderick Robertson, SC1-5, x52936) Subject: Lunar Food Message-ID:Date: 12 May 94 16:29:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3986 Sandy Petersen talks of Lunar food and spices: > At least one book I've read states that spicy-hot dishes >appear in areas where there is a large peasant population with but a >single staple foodstuff. In an attempt to make their bland, dull diet >palatable, the oppressed farmers add chilis, paprika, or pepper to >their meal. When the rich folks finally get a hold of these >interesting spices and sauces, and add them to their own diet (which >includes meat), you end up with a cuisine. The pattern holds for >Mexico, India, and southeast Asia. In Europe, where peasants might >well starve, but would generally do so on a varied diet, composed of >fish, wheat, rye, millet, barley, cabbage, pork, etc. such spicy >dishes never evolved. Ditto for Japan. For Europe, I thought there just wasn't much in the way hot spices. Lots of garden herbs, but no peppers, thus the need to go India. However, history of cuisine is not my forte (Where does Paprika come from?). > I think that the New Lunar Cuisine is horribly adulterated, >with few "natural" flavors or unprocessed food. I also picture it as >fairly expensive, and not much eaten by the lower classes, except >maybe on a feast day. I don't think many folk can afford Sauteed >Newtling Tail on Wild Rice every day. At RQ (we promise it will be warmer than RQ-CON 1) CON 2 , The Eat at Geo's competition this year will be "Lunar Decadence", so bring out those Newtling Tails, Duck tongues in honey and garlic, Waltapus tentacle in fermented fish sauce, and other delicacies. We also want to have the recipes (both in and out of character) to publish in the post-con book. Roderick (Don't ask me about RQ-CON2, ask Eric Rowe) Robertson --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Very tricky, in fact. Message-ID: <9405121558.AA15123@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 12 May 94 15:58:27 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3987 Jonas: > Alex: > > >Steady on there... I'm absolutely _not_ suggesting a Quorum of 75 Eurmal > >Acolytes at every Holy Day. > So does this mean you agree that the 75-inits limit is bunk in general? Yes and no... I think it can stand to be "loosely interpreted" (counting associate worshippers. to some extent), perhaps bumped down to about 50 ("seven sevens"?). Eurmal's weird cult structure suggests further fudging, though. > Joerg: perhaps you should send it to Alex as well, or perhaps even post itI Yah, why not post? > By "official", I didn't mean "recognized", I meant "formalized". I.e. when > Eurmal gets a _priesthood_ that seemingly has a set job description, a > salary, a uniform, etcetera, I think we're getting away from the spirit of > Trickster. Well, no. When a Eurmal acolyte becomes a "priest", he gets a shrine to sleep it off in, regular buckets of slops on the head, and jeers and derision on demand. > This is a problem with the other write-up I mention above as well: it > divides tricksters into initiates and priests. I happen to _like_ the > anarcho-democratic do-it-yourself tricksters of GoG! I do too, I think most Trickster worship is like this. On the other hand, I'm resistant to the idea of Trickster being a monolithic GLised entity with only one universal mode of worship. And in places where he isn't _totally_ beyond the Pale, such as the Barbarian Belt, perhaps it is possible to worship Eurmal, in some way, without becoming an outcast? Just a thoughtlet. > When you argue for a > complete _separation_ of these questions, it seems you're saying that RQ as > a rules system should be governed completely by considerations of > (power-)gaming balance. There's something of a dangling referent here, I assume "you" is John Hughes, not, say, me. At any rate, I'm about to broadly agree with Jonas here, just as soon as I've uploaded the latest excessive number of outgoing messages... Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Why Arkat brought Malkionism to Maniria? Message-ID: <9405121630.AA15201@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 12 May 94 16:30:37 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3988 Joerg, X-RQ-ID: various: > > Okay. My picture is of less Malkioni influence, and correspondingly > > a less prevalent role for the IG in Heortland. > Which I assume for the Volsaxi, Kitori, Marcher Barons and most of the > hill people, and even half of the Hendriki nation, mostly the lower > classes. That the higher classes of the Hendriki are somewhat malkionized > follows clearly from both Genertela Book and RQ-Companion. Yes, I agree with this last bit, but you've been proposing that "weavers" follow the Aeolian church. To say nothing of "Saint Barntar". > > De gustibus, n'awrat. > Right, although if there ever should appear an officialized version of > Heortland, one of the views would prevail. Officialisation could produce anything it feels like. I reserve the right to take issue with it, too. > [Aeolians = / <> God Learners] > > Heh. No, what I meant was the inclusion of deities in the creed which > > aren't in _either_ Western or Orlanthi cosmology: I wasn't objecting > > to the combination of these two, which is obviously the whole point. > Which, for example? I forget the whole creed, but Maker and Grower spring to mind, and the identification of Glorantha, Ginna Jar, and Arachne Solara. > Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3868 > > My understanding is that the dominant Western influence on Maniria is > > post-Closing. (The "Trader Princes". See G:CotHW; GB2, p46.) > That's the western part of Maniria, west of Esrolia. I still suspect this is the origin of said influence, but I grant that Heortland is more Westernised than the rest of Maniria. > For the Holy > Country, we are in the lucky position to have the RQC description, > which tells us that the Hendriki inherited the rule over Heortland > from him. In my opinion they adopted knighthood and related concepts Minor quibble: they didn't, really, as Hendriki "knights" aren't a Malkioni-style caste or class, much less anything at all like modern Hrestoli knights. > I'm certain the Hendriki were > part of his host, and fought alongside Ralian Orlanthi and Seshnegi > Hrestoli. I'm not convinced that any Westerner likely to accompany Arkat, a person who'd just apostasised from their religion, would be likely to make good "missionary" material. Certainly not to the extend that a millenium later, a country in the middle of theist territory would end up as IG-inclined as central Ralios, who have Seshnela breathing down their necks. That they'd influence them in military matters is easier to believe. > > This > > seems to be very much a "top-down" influence. This timescale also > > corresponds roughly to the settling of the Quivins area, by people, > > recall, seeking to establish "old-time Orlanth worship". > This would apply to the Colymar, who are said to come from Esrolia > (or Ditali lands?) in CHDP. Indeed, but they and their fellow colonists, who were likely to have similar motivations, don't seem likely to be fertile ground for rampant Malkionisation. > > But in any case, if all Aeolians worship their Trinity, my point holds > > good. > They all say so in the credo their wizards/priests taught them. I doubt > that many would seriously reflect on the implications of this tradition. > Those who do are likely to have at least some degree of clerical investment. They may not "reflect on the implications", but if they all turn up at a building marked "Aeolian church, apply within", then they are all linked by having, in essense, the same "cult", right? Stop arguing with me while I'm trying to agree with you. ;-) Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Attention Tight British Mythographers. Message-ID: <9405121631.AA15208@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 12 May 94 16:31:59 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3989 If you have a Bargain Books (or other remainder-festers) near you, you might want to check if they're selling the Senate edition of the Myth and Legend series. Two quid a throw in these parts. Blatant monomythising in the _Egypt_ volume. ;-) Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Level-headedness. Message-ID: <9405121634.AA15212@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 12 May 94 16:34:18 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3990 John "Lithium" Hughes raves: > Some serious issues again this week - Levels of Gloranthan 'Reality', > Godlearners, Tricksters and polygamous marriage. Please excuse my > subtext of slightly manic 'humour'. After all, I've just attempted to > read and make sense of a full week's download of the initiation > debate all at once! Crash team! Resuss! Defib! Clear! Better now? ;-) > Now perhaps I'm a cynic and of little faith, but I like to draw > distinctions as to what 'level' I'm discussing. I see at least four > fairly distinct and (IMHO) ultimately unreconcilable levels of > Gloranthan 'reality'. If each is a 'map', let me list them in terms of > smaller and smaller 'scales'. I don't see why they are, in principle, irreconcilable, though I'm sure one could haul out examples of inconsistencies both between and within a "level" all day. I'm not sure a really see any particular progression in "scale", either: and isn't the fourth level the territory, not a map? > GLORANTHA AS COMBAT-SIMULATION (COMBAT REALITY) > GLORANTHA AS DERIVED FROM RQ RULES (RQ-DERIVED REALITY) These two sound like much the same thing to me: not that all RQ is combat, but that the only purpose of the distinction seems, to me, to be to distingush between "good" RQ-as-simulation (touchy-feely scenarios), and "bad" RQ-as-simulation (wicked hack-n-slash). > GLORANTHA AS A LITERARY CREATION (LITERARY REALITY) > KOS is the best example of this level. A very vague category, and one which doesn't really even "catch" all of KoS, to my mind. I'm not quite sure if it's meant to cover all "storytelling" exercises, or if one gains entry to its hallowed halls by some crypto-value-judgemental step. > GLORANTHA AS A CLOSED, FULLY-FUNCTIONING WORLD > (GLORANTHAN REALITY) The trouble with this level is that it isn't a means of description, as such. While we may wish to aim at this, since we can't book a day return there we have to grope our way towards it, by whatever means available, be it game rules, fiction, myth-making, or the Daily-patented free-form stream-of-consciousness ramblings we wallow in even as I (somewhat painfully) type. A postmodernist delight, really. "Hence the pantheon initiation rules are seen to desconstruct themselves." > (Of course, cult writeups are GodLearner documents, and so should > be treated with a healthy contempt). Yeah. Which is why they tend to be so accurate. Certainly, you learn more about the Carmanian cult of Humakt from the Humakt writeup than you would by asking the worthies in an Esrolian Humakt temple. As an added bonus, it's also printable. Of course, what should be realised is what they _don't_ tell you. > I especially think it is > unprofitable to vacillate in discussion between different levels. Oh? I'm not clear what your objection is here. If you mean in "for public consumption" texts, such as published scenarios, fiction, etc, then I take your point: sequeing from (allegedly) high fantasy source material to a lot of stats or chatty-asides-to-the-reader, and things like that can be most annoying. But I see no harm in carrying out "parallel" discussions of rules, literature and whatever else here, if it's all to the same purpose. > And make clear in your posts which level you are operating on. If it isn't _a priori_ clear, is it a meaningful distinction in the first place? I think this is only worth belabouring if there would otherwise be a serious danger of confusion between conflicting expectations or understandings. "Do keets talk like Donald, Daffy, or the mallard down the local pond? Only (RQ rules derived|Greg Approved|Literarily consistent|One True Glorantha) answers need apply." > The cult and magic rules are especially fragile. Joerg intervenes: > This is "hinting" at Alex' and my discussion on initiation, isn't it? It was? Well, if a simulation fails to describe the details, in thermodynamics I have learned to apply modifications to the original function/rule to bend it to apply. The RQ rules are a fair basic tool for Gloranthan experiences, but as soon as you want to leave the immanent abstraction of the rules (e.g. for combat, but also for magic) you conflict with reality and playability. > > Don't worry or complain if it breaks down at other levels, and > > DON"T TRY TO CONSTRUCT ELABORATE RECONCILIATIONS. Well, I don't think Glorantha needs to be "reconciled" to RQ, but I see no problem with the converse. > Here we disagree. I want to reduce the difference between the realities > you postulate as far as possible. The simulation mechanics must not > hamper the simulation, so they need fine tuning. This is a fair attitude. On the other hand, despite my half-hearted "defence" of RQ3 in re initiation, and my use of RQ jargon in discussing it, I'm much more concerned with what the "Gloranthan truth" of the matter is, and not particularly with "fixing" the rules (or saving them from being fixed). Alex. --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: oops Message-ID: <9405121825.AA00839@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 12 May 94 06:25:38 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3991 In a recent mailing, I mentioned that I didn't know anywhere in Glorantha that a classic Aldryami War was still raging. David Cake kindly reminded me of Dorastor, where the Poisonthorn and Hellwood elves have been fighting just such a war for many decades. In addition, the Onlaks Elf/Human war is being fought just like an Aldryami War. The beleaguered humans can go for years without seeing a single elf, but must struggle against invasions of stone-breaking trees, poisoned lumber, etc. Paul Snow, in an interesting discussion on the relative importance of Runes, asks: >Would it help players to focus on the nature of their >Humakti character by deciding whether he is of the Truth Death >affilition (Dirty Harry ?) or the Death Truth followers. etc The current theory about Humakt is that he has _two_ death Runes, and a single truth Rune. The paired death Runes symbolize the fact that he is the Origin of that Rune. When Greg and I labored over the Runes for GoG and RQ III, 'twas decided that the Runes came in several different "flavors" for different gods. To wit: ORIGIN: A god can be the Origin of a Rune. This means that all other deities that share that Rune get it, by hook or crook, from the Origin. If the Origin god of a Rune was to somehow vanish from the universe, almost everything would irrevocably change. Probably this can't happen -- If Humakt were to be destroyed, probably some other god would take over the function, just as when Kargan Tor vanished, Humakt stepped in. There are two different ways you can be the Origin of a Rune. Either you can be the original source of it, or you can have inherited it somehow. For instance, Uleria was the original source of the Life Rune, and still is. Humakt is _not_ the original source of the Death Rune. If you are the original source of a Rune, then you have the Infinity Rune. If you are _not_ the source, but are the current Origin, then you have two of that Rune. Hence, Orlanth has two Air Runes, since he is the current Origin (but not the original), whereas Flamal has a single Plant Rune, plus an Infinity Rune, since he is not only the current Origin, but always has been. Now, this "doubled" Rune imagery is obviously just a symbolic conceit, and could just as easily have been displayed the other way round. Glorantha has a long history of considering a doubled Rune to be equivalent to the Infinity Rune. Dragons, for instance, have two Beast Runes, but no Infinity Rune, yet everyone knows that Dragons display the powers of Infinity. In fact some people think that the infinity Rune was originally formed from a pair of Beast Runes put next to each other. Hence, all gods that are Origins of a Rune are Infinite. PRIMARY: A Primary Rune is a Rune that is central to a particular god's existence. Generally speaking, Primary Runes are the Runes that are mentioned in CoP, GoG, CoT, and other cult manuscripts. Orlanth's Primary Runes, frex, are Mobility and Mastery. SECONDARY: A Secondary Rune is a Rune that a god only kinda has. It is not so important to the god, but he still is considered to possess it. Sort of. For example, the Storm Bull has the Primary Runes of Storm, Death, and Beast. But he also has the Secondary Rune of Disorder. Secondary Runes have in the past not generally been listed in cult descriptions, except occasionally when the cult would mention that a god was "loosely associated" with a Rune. For instance, Mastakos has been given the Light Rune, but really this is a sort of honorary representation of the fact that he has a Secondary Fire Rune. Paul Pofandt asks: >What is required to join a sub cult? It depends on the cult. Most cults have no membership requirements for their subcults. All you have to do is find a temple with the appropriate shrine built in. For instance, most Humakti hero cults are freely available to initiates. However, the Hiia Swordsman Humakti hero cult requires its members to take an oath that they will never use poison or venom. Most just take a geas to that effect. >Is another POW sacrifice required (to join a subcult)? This would be extremely rare. I can't think of a cult which does, off-hand. >Is a member of a sub cult also a member of the parent cult? Invariably. Sandy