From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 14 May 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Alex request for my God Learner head
Message-ID:
Date: 13 May 94 20:22:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4007
Alex, read Loren's entry in X-RQ-ID: 3994. He repeats my basic
intention.
Your confusion from X-RQ-ID: 3996
> Joerg the Generic, in round # of the Initiation thread:
Generous doesn't end on "ic" (or "ick"), Alex...
> I'm having difficulty doing so, I have to confess. It still appears that
> you're saying you _need_ this particular mechanism (pantheon initiation)
> for one thing (adulthood init.), and that the two _must_, for various
> reasons, be intertwined, and are then blithely seeking to extend it
> to sonething quite different, and on the face of it somewhat contradictory
> (whether, and how, children worship).
I "_need_" the following partly, not totally independent mechanisms about
initiation:
- pantheon initiation
- religious initiation accompanying adulthood initiation
- childhood pre-initiation
I don't need them all at once, but when I think about adulthood initiation,
I like to know what was before, and what changes, and how important the
one man - one god relation really is.
J> The mass of Vori "initiates" symbolize the new life, and are as
J> such extremely important. Should they fumble the ritual, the whole
J> community might suffer severely.
> They might be important in some notional sense, but I don't see that
> they'd be required to actually _do_ anything. As "non-initiates" they
> don't have the knowledge, or the necessary magical viewpoint.
You don't need any magic knowledge to be involved in a heroquest. All you
need is the right series of mythically relevant actions to set off the
overlap between Heroplane and Mundane Plane. In Sacred Time, this overlap
is active anyway.
> But fertility rituals (your argument as to why it's a Good Thing for boys
> to worship Voriof) are of less importance in towns,
Wrong. A town depends solely on the fertility of the surrounding rural
commodities for survival. You won't find a city inhabited by Orlanthi
which imports basic foodstuff. Reread the excellent "Civilization" chapter
in the rulesbook, GM section.
> and most boys are likely
> to be coralled more into their Apprenticeship roles, or whatever they
> Plan On Being When They Grow Up, than something nicely generic, and of no
> possible use to them.
"For school we learn, not for life"
Most boys aren't apprenticed yet. (Not at all, according to RQ3 character
generation rules, although this takes rules interpretation too far). They
have received basic social training, common knowledge, maybe a bit
specialisation from their parents' trades. All of them want to become
chieftain or something like that at the time of their "Voriof-introduction",
sometime around their 6th, 9th or 12th summer.
J> For Orlanthi:
J> Youth associates
> I think this is a confusing concept. Voria "initiates" don't get
> _any_ magical benefits from their "associates", so if you insist on
> a precisely analogous Voriof cult, then its members aren't "Initiates"
> and don't have "associates", in the God Learner sense.
Again and again: Magical benefits needn't be "do it yourself" magic. In
western and eastern culture, most magic is left to the priesthood, in
Orlanthi culture it is left to the adults. Would you want to risk your
children falling unconscious fooling around with a Befuddle spell, and
become easy prey for a malevolent spirit? Rather put them into a proto-
cult which might even provide spirits to guard them.
> I also think that to say "Storm Bull (not Urox)" is to conflate the
> notions of different _cults_ with that of different gods.
Different myths, not cults. In Orlanth's myths, Urox hardly would figure
as husband of Ernalda, he's just beastly big brother, bashing headlong into
the fray. In Praxian myth, the Bull had married the Earth. Whether these
different myths make them different deities I leave up to Campbells
apostles. It makes them different aspects, to say the least.
> I must say that your use of the term "Initiation" is sorta confusing in
> general.
I use it according to Webster's Dictionary of the English Language.
"in-i-ti-ate [...] --v.t. [...] 3. to admit with formal rites into
secret knowledge, a society, etc."
This covers religious as well as social initiation on all levels.
> Put your God Learner hat on for a moment (I'm sure it's handy
> ): there is clearly a very particular "normal" structure to the
> Initiate status, the details of which I needn't belabour. The Seven
> Mothers cult bends them, Voria and the Red Goddess break them (though
> use of the term in these cases does make a sort of stream of consciousness
> sense).
I don't see how the Red Goddess breaks it any more than say Yelm or Orlanth
do, with my hat on. Nor do I see the telling difference between one god per
cult (say like Lodril or Etyries), two gods (Caladra and Aurelion) or seven
(The Seven Mothers, The Lightbringers' Ring). If Voria breaks the rules, so
does Aldrya, and Mostal does, the Invisible God does, the Red Emperor does,
the Pharaoh does, Godunya does, in that all of these have sub-rune rank
members above lay member (no secrets, no active worship) status.
THE GOD LEARNER SPEAKS:
"Initiates are an intermediate state of magical development for those who
follow the theist principle. Initiation on its basest level includes the
enchanting of the candidate's Godplane personality in the lowest degree,
allowing the specific deathbed or heroquesting transition into the
Godplane realm the initiation pertains to. As a heroquester's tool,
initiation allows quick access into the myths of this creed. As such, it
matters little whether this link pertains to a vague elemental power, a
specific set of Runes, or a group of Runic entities associated with the
initiation enchantment.
Generally, the initiate is able to expand this link through later
enchantments so that she or he will gain access to the magical essence of
the other side of the initiation link. If this link has been expanded far
enough, the next stage of magical development can be approached.
If one accepts the Newfroswal catalogue of the various stages of cultic
membership [aka Universal Cult Format], one has a rough tool to describe most
phenomena of initiation. The advanced heroquester won't let this construct
hamper his access the magical powers open to exploitation via this link.
Especially the "one-use" character of magic has been proven to be a product
of the ignorance of ordinary practitioners not familiar with modern power-
gathering techniques. Since these depend in part on just this ignorance,
we advise not to undertake steps to change this attitude, unless a special
experiment requires this fast depletion of the source.
Now, enough theorising, let's mount Umaliath and be done."
You mean the bland initiate definition from the Universal Cult Format,
right? I am in fact astonished that something so _generic_ is defended as
being Gloranthan fact, not to be touched except for a few cases.
> It doesn't unduly bother me that some cults work this way; it's at least
> clear what god/cult is being worshipped.
The cult of Orlanth's Stead?
> (Not so very
> coincidentally, they are also cults which the eligible candidate "must"
> be (fully, as it were) initiated into, for social reasons.)
Just like in good old Sartar, right?
J> Adulthood initiation wouldn't, the basic religious initiation would
J> involve POW sacrifice (once).
> But isn't the whole point of your argument that they're the same thing?
I said they come simultaneously for "all" Orlanthi. Even people who love
a good festival as much as our Sartarite friends will have a limit of
festivals in honour of their offspring.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Equal of the Apostles
Message-ID: <01HCBPN71KZC8ZE90O@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 14 May 94 19:52:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4008
G'day everyone!
____________
Citizen Wane
Nick:
>Seems eminently sensible to me. That's how I'd treat Lunar organisations of
>almost any size (department, regiment, empire) so as to get the theocratic
>Empire's feel across. Like, I think Citizen of the Lunar Empire is the lay
>member status in the Red Emperor's cult; anyone else like that? (This Q. is
>especially aimed at the Equal of the Apostles, MOB). Or is it too much a
>mechanical/literal interpretation of RuneQuest's flawed cult rules?
MOB: No, no no! A citizen of the Empire *is*, in my view, automatically a lay
member of the Cult of the Emperor.
Note the "Red Emperor" article in Tales #8 (which I cobbled together from a
disparate collection of Greg's notes): it says, "The Emperor is worshipped by
as a separate divine entity, apart from his mother, by the common populace of
the Empire. It is very easy to become a lay member of his cult, and most cults
will include it without notice to their worshippers." A bit like when the
priest says a prayer for the Queen as part of the prayers in an Church of
England service. (As Her Mag had actually awarded him an MBE, the minister at
the Uniting Church* I once attended is an ardent monarchist and he once popped
in a prayer to the Queen during the service. As I am an ardent republican -
as in, someone who believes Australia should be a republic, not someone
who voted for George Shrub - I was surprised by this liturgical ambush,
so I didn't "amen" that bit).
In Roman times, everyone was expected to revere the Emperor as divine, and
most would go through the motions of the official Emperor worship and then
head off to get more satisfying spiritual satisfaction elsewhere
(Mithraism, Eastern mystery cults, Isis worship, etc). As long as you
accepted the Emperor as divine and didn't grouse about it, there was no
problem. Of course, the early Christians (and Jews) refused to acknowledge
the Emperor's divinity, and so were persecuted in all sorts of creative ways.
I see Red Emperor worship as being somewhat like this - it is
just assumed that as a citizen you naturally acknowledge the Red
Emperor's divinity and authority; if you don't and this is made
public, you would be stripped of your citizenship. And as you're likely
to be an Orlanthi too, who not only refuses to acknowledge the Emperor
but also denies the Red Goddess's power and subjugation of Orlanth, you'd
best run off and join the other rebels in the hills before the authorities
catch you.
*The Uniting Church is one of the largest denominations in Australia; an
amalgam of the Methodists, Presbyterians and Congregationists
that took place around 15 years ago. I no longer attend the Uniting
Church.
_______________
Gloranthan Food
A most mouth-watering debate - thanks Sandy for, er, bringing food up.
On the topic of hot 'n spicy foods, Brandon writes:
> One exception to the "unvaried staples means spicy food" idea in Glorantha
>might be Sun County. I have always viewed them as having mostly a barley-based
>diet; yet I picture the stoic Sun Domers as making a virtue out of the
>simplicity and predictability of their diet rather than seeking to vary it.
>"I raise good barley and strong sons for the glory of Yelmalio.".
>Any thoughts?
Just as the Sun County is considered boring, flat and dull, so too is the
cuisine, for the reasons Brandon mentions. The nobs - eg. the Count and
his cronies eat more varied and exotic stuff, especially since the influence
of the Lunars in recent years. However, Sun Domer "feasts" and
official functions are dreaded affairs, as the dull, predictable fare
has to be trundled out so the Count can ostentatiously show his affinity with
the common man to all present. Lunars dragooned into attending these events
often bring a hamper of highly spiced goodies to sup on in their guest chamber
after the "banquet".
> I have always pictured wealthy Lunars as eating a diet reminiscent of
>wealthy romans, including the decadent excesses seen in some households in
>late imperial era. I imagine such things as High Llama Necks stuffed with
>Zebra Sausage and the like.
Yum, yum! Here's another delicacy, popular in another highly civilised part
of lozenge, the Holy Country (originally published as a Notes from Nochet
entry in in Tales #7):
"Forcemeat" (by MOB):
Herd-man can be served in a variety of ways, most of which can be found
on Anchoritenus's list of morally objectionable foods*. Yet it is
considered highly indecorous if the presentation of the dish gives the
eater even the slightest suspicion he is eating eating herd-human. Even
when the cook's intention is not to deceive, and the guests are fully
aware herd-man meat is on the menu, in civilized company no one will refer
to the dish without a euphemism. In Pavis, the butchers peddle it as
"mock pork", in the Holy Country it is known as "forcemeat".
With a candour which is often revolting, Malhawi Habatat describes a feast
of almost obscene novelty in which forcemeat was served, at the court of
the great Demivierge of Rhigos.
"The naked brutes were paraded before us, glazen-eyed and stupid, yet our
lady had personally selected them for their classical proportions and they
had of course been well-oiled and depilated of all body hair. Following
the lead of our mistress, each guest selected a herd-human of their
choice, which was brought to their couch and made to go through a series
of poses. That certain guests used the beasts for sexual purposes before
they went to the pot I will for our lady's honour not answer. Later
that evening, each guest was served a dish of "forcemeat" cooked to their
whim, and although hands, feet and, inevitably, genitals graced the
plates as garnishments, everyone of course pretended not to notice.
"Old Glaucon (the head cook) always complained that our mistress liked
her herd-men far too lean for the best eating, but it was she who had
them imported from Prax at tremendous expense. He later found himself
trussed up and sold to the morokanth, after our lady discovered that he
had been substituting human actors in the posing, and putting his
plumper herd-men in the pot. She always did enjoy making the
punishment fit the crime."
*See "Seven Favorite Foods", TALES OF THE REACHING MOON #6.
_______________________________
Strangers in Prax Erratta 1.1.2
Yuri and other Japanese RQers asked if Restore Health was reusable by Chalana
Arroy Healers, and cited the fact that River of Cradles says that Orlanthi rune
levels get such spells resuably as proof that this is the case.
I agreed, though I based my interpretation on the fact that the RQ2 equivalent
of this spell was reusable.
However, Sandy, who actually helped write the RQ3 rules notes:
>The intent of the rules is as follows: Restore Health is a one-use
>spell. The Chalana Arroy (and Ernalda) Restore Health magics given to
>Orlanth as an associate are NOT reusable, but one-use.
OK, rules fiends, make a note of that in RoC!
> Spell Trading does not allow the trading of one-use spells
>except under special circumstances. For instance, as a gamemaster I
>would permit it if the Spell Trading was one-use for that purpose.
OK, if we assume that Restore Health is one-use after all, I can blandly
assert that Princess Anderida got her Restore Health spells via
Spell Trading this way (obviously she knew a very obliging Issaries priest!)
> In Old RQ, one-use spells were traded all the time using
>Spell Trading. This was an abuse that led to serious problems among
>GMs in California (after a while, every cult had every spell), and
>this is why the practice was stopped with RQ III.
This was never a problem in the RQ2 campaigns I played in back in the days
of yore, but I guess these were pretty low-level affairs compared to
some of the games that went on at the time. Takes for example,
this description of a game at a Californian con found in WF #11:
"...my character had the awful choice of having either no magical protection
or no spirit protection up [my characters usually have a choice of *neither*].
Fortunately there was another party member who had Countermagic 10 [!] and
a POW Enhancing 10 crystal [!!], so my character was able to have 20
points of Countermagic (with Extension II) [!!!] to go with 2 points of his
own Spirit Block [!!!!]. Then a discorporate Thanatari allied spirit
spotted him (Concealment [Concealment? This character has got Concealment
on him too!!!!!] is no protection from a spirit's perception of sources of
POW) and hit him with a 2 point Rune Spell backed up with 20 points of
POW [!!!!!!], thus blowing the Countermagic and leaving my character with
no protection from spells [poor bugger!]. My character's POW was not
overcome by the Sever Spirit [!!!!!!!] so he survived the spell.
Phew, what a game this must've been!
___________________
Lightbringer Secret
Sandy - tell us more about these "Gift-Carriers" (is that what they're
called?), who did or do nasty things to people who know the Lightbringer
Secret...
While I was in New York someone who claimed to officially know
the Lightbringer Secret explained it to another person while I was present,
but preoccupied with something else I wasn't really listening (honest!)
Are they gonna come after me? My wife was there too, and although I'm sure
she heard it, as a resolute non-RQer (though she did have fun tax-collecting
in HotB) she is completely uninterested in what she was told. Should I
tell her to watch out too? (Of course, I have no way of knowing what
was said that night is the TRUE secret!)
Also, someone else who claimed to officially know it said that he could
explain it in 5 words, but was rather put out when I told him Greg
said he could explain it in three! He demanded to know if that included
words like "the" or "and"!
__________________________________
Reaching Moon Megacorp Merchandise
Attention Aussie RQers!
I no longer have in stock copies of either "Rough Guide to Boldhome" or
"Report on the Fall of Boldhome." Sorry, what copies I did have went
to those who responded quickly after the issue #11 mail-out; some even
sent there orders by express post to ensure they'd get what they were after.
I still have limited copies of:
* RQ Con Program Book
* Lunar coins
Cheers
MOB
---------------------
From: MARTINCRIM@delphi.com
Subject: Mostly metals
Message-ID: <01HCAXIC0AXU8WW9WY@delphi.com>
Date: 13 May 94 16:21:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4009
Gee, maybe I missed it because I've only been following the
Joerg/Alex clash of titans since early March, but no one has
mentioned the best counter-example yet to Alex's insistance on
one god to a cult: the Tusk Riders. Their cult explicitly
worships three different spirits.
Alex "Quotation Marks Anonymous Founder" Ferguson objects to the
use of the word selenium for the lunar rune metal. Might I ask
that you please suggest a better term?
Alex also notes my cleverly-disguised element-rune connections,
and says this should "only [be] the case for those cults which
are 'advanced' enough to have a need for it, and magically
significant enough to provide the capability." Yeah, that was
kinda the idea. It seems clear to me that you don't have to be
as advanced to use lead, since it has a lower melting point.
Re: usefulness of Enchant Tin
Yes, given the statement in ES that Tin is not commonly
enchanted, I reckon that Enchant Tin is basically useless.
Re: exarchs in steel plate
I don't have any trouble with this, myself, given China's
historical advantage in technology over the West. But hell, it's
a game, do what you want.
"You" "can't" "have" "your" "use" "and" "mention" "it" "too."
--Douglas Hofstadter
--Martin
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