From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 16 May 1994, part 4 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Re: Orlanth Miscellaneous Message-ID: <9405152126.AA19800@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 15 May 94 21:26:53 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4025 > [transferable membership of Orlanth subcults, eps. to O.Rex] > > No, certainly not. (Not that I have a writeup handy.) This comment was _only_ about O. Rex, in fact. Joerg: > Neither do I. Does there exist one in an obscure magazine like Wyrm's > Footnotes or Different Worlds? If so, when will these become publically > available? Urk. Doesn't the Heroes #4 writeup cover it? Bummer. Maybe it's a Big Secret and Not Meant For We Commoners. > > The trouble here > > is that the term "subcult" is an inherently ambiguous one, covering about > > three [...] and c) a "subservient cult", such > > as the Sandals of Darkness. > Exactly the problem. I'd toss in a fourth, the associate cult Yeah, associate cults are like (c), except they aren't "subservient". To wit, they receive outside worship too. These are only called "subcults" when we wish to annoy the neighbourhood Mastakos Initiate, I think. ;-) (Or in a context in which the outside worshippers aren't in evidence, where it should work exactly like (c).) > and arrive at pantheistic worship I assume you mean pantheonist(ic) (ugh, horrible word(s), I know), but in any case I don't see that this follows. > > I agree with Orlanth-Barntar, and perhaps Orlanth Berserker (the pre-3rd- > > age subcult previously discussed?), but the others sound dubious, for > > various reasons. > So we have Humakt and Urox as early subcults of Orlanth; I was never very convinced about these... If they were, they were quite different from the third age Humakt and Storm Bull cults. > Heler, Mastakos, Barntar, the Thunder Brothers still are; Well, associates, and "almost" subcults, at least. > So a Dawn Age Theyalan could join Orlanth and get the whole pantheon, > right? Depends what you mean by "get the whole pantheon". For one thing, the usual pattern of subcult worship is that you only get _one_ spell from each. (Lodril bends this a bit, but not to the extent of getting of getting six or eight spells from a "sub"cult.) Also, this is only where there actually exists a shrine to the associate/subcult in question. (Only at great temples if you believe the published rules, I think they're more common.) I think you'd find a Dawn Age Orlanth cult rather dissappointing, in fact. I believe that the (third age) Orlanth cult is about as "big" as cults/ religions can reasonably get. (Though maybe Pamalt has more associates.) These Other Orlanths that we're batting about are likely to "trade-off" a significant amount of "standard" Orlanth stuff, in favour of the additional role being subsumed. If you "need" more magic, join another cult in addition. Better yet, become a Wind Lord, and join other cults for free. ;-) > We are sorely in need of a Barntar cult write-up and its exact ties to > the cults of Ernalda and Orlanth, as well as its role under Lunar > government and how much it counts toward Orlanth worship. This would be good, yeah. On the other hand, it may not _have_ much of a separate existance under normal conditions, being subsumed into Orlanth and Ernalda. Though I'd guess that it breaks the usual rules for (type (c)) subcults if it is. It may also have a role for post- adolescent non-adults who've not undergone "Orlanthi" initiation. > Let's take an Orlanth initiate in recently conquered Pavis County who > wants to avoid additional trouble with the Lunar occupators. Living > in the upper River of Cradles, he makes a life out of farming and plowing, > which makes him essentially somewhat of an initiate of Barntar and the > Grain Goddess. More likely simply Barntar, the Grain Goddess being a more female role, though I'd not be surprised if there was a large "overlap" between the two. Indeed, perhaps a detailed look at Orlanth and Ernalda would reveal some of their magic is in fact from a Barntar "sub"cult. > > I think that where combined worship of two gods is a social need for a > > community, then there will exist a "fudged" cult, combining or identifying > > them. > If his position involves even more such aspects, the cult gets fudged more. I'm not talking about particular individuals, much less exceptional cases. I'm talking about a situation where there is a _general_ social need for worship of two deities, in a situation where there isn't, for some reason, simply two separate cults, with people generally joining one or the other. For example, in the Lismelder lands, Humakt cultists hold many of the social positions normally taken by Orlanthi, and there are many more Humakti than is usual. But still, there are going to be many Orlanth worshippers, too. Now, perhaps these are in all cases kept rigidly separate, as GoG and CoP would cause us to believe. But on the other hand, perhaps the some Orlanth temples in the area emphasise his connection to death (O. Deathwielder, say), perhaps adopting some Humakt- type magic, and/or treating Humakt as an associate. Conversely, some temples to Humakt may subsume some of Orlanth's functions, most obviously leader and warrior. (Humakt the Thane?) I very much doubt you'd ever see a Sword wielding Lightnings, for obvious reasons, but some of the Rex/Adventurous magics and duties could be "moved" to Humakt. > The sum of the fudged cults is the number of pantheon initiates. Absolutely not. I may be suggesting "one man, one cult" (though I amn't, really), I'm certainly not suggesting "one cult, one man." Nor do I think there would ever he cases of a "fudged" cult covering _every_ cult in the "pantheon". This is taking things to their (il)logical extreme. And even then, one wouldn't get the magical free- for-all that pantheon initiation seems to imply, either. Rather, you'd get one "compromise" cult with a very small fraction of the magic of each. Something like the Seven Mothers gone riot, I suppose. > BTW, did the White Woman cure your icks about pantheon initiates? Then > send her around, I have a bad case caused by a village full of fudged > cultists, not a single one worshipping a published cult. This same description could be applied to Pantheon Initiation; certainly I'm not clear what their relation to published cults is. If you could clarify this, perhaps we'd get somewhere. Personally, I think most "ordinary" people, belong to one published (or "when are you about to publish!"'ed) cult. Perhaps some people, such as Orlanthi with some "niche" role customarily worship two, if it turns out to be the case that all are initiated to Orlanth or Ernalda in the first place. More than two would be pretty rare, I think, as is the need for same. Alex. ---------------------