Bell Digest v940523p4

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 23 May 1994, part 4
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Subject: Lay members
Message-ID: <>
Date: 22 May 94 08:10:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4108

S.Phillips in X-RQ-ID: 4071

S>Why? What use are lay members within a culture? You are either *in* or
S>you are a weirdo and are therefore *out*. People get lynched for less.
S>I play

Well, I don't see this.  A lay member of Ernalda is not some
weirdo unless she comes from Esrolia or something, and even then
you've got to tolerate her.

S>of the day the kinship is what holds them together. If you do not see
S>Orlanth as Rex then you cannot be kin. Be-Off!

Yes acknowledging O.R. is a requirment to be accepted but being
an initiate is another level altogether.

C>> I think associate cults were created to address this exact point.
S>Yes. By Godlearners with their bizzare way of expressing things. What
S>is an associate? There are kin and there are outsiders. There are
S>friends and there are enemies. Anyone who does not recognise that
S>Orlanth is the king of gods

Well calling this relationship Association is a bit GLish, you
might prefer to say:

"Orlanth and Ernalda married and thus the two of them have spells
from one another.  Orlanth and Urox are kin and thus ..."

But it amounts to the same thing.

S>I am sure that culture will effect association as much as religion. A
S>young Sartarian Uroxi may find it hard to embrace a Zorak Zorani as
S>an "associate"

S>the first time he met one. For, how *could* he be kin? He
S>eats babies.. Doesn't he?

"Storm Bull and Zorak Zoran saved each other's lives in battle
against chaos in the Great Darkness, thus they are blood brothers
and so each gave a spell to the other as a mark of this."

S>Keep the rules flexible.
S>If you don't like it - change it. If you don't know it - make it up!

I prefer to keep the myths flexible, and apply the same rule.  If I had
perfect players perhaps I could make up the rules as I deepened my
understanding, I don't... Do you?



Subject: Initiation round 5
Message-ID: <>
Date: 22 May 94 09:21:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4109

Joerg Baumgartner in X-RQ-ID: 4072

C>> This I agree with...  indeed I would go farther.  Initiation creates
C>> identification between a god and an initiate, such that the initiate
C>> becomes identified with the god in every aspect of his life.
J>That's Rune Lords. Initiates take their deity as a role model, but
J>most of the time they fail to really identify.

This is the root of our disagreement.  To me initiation changes the
initiate utterly.  The basic nature of the initiate is changed in many
ways and he becomes identified with his god.  Rune Lord status is a
recognition of a deepening of what initiation initiadted.

J>And I think that there won't be any myths about Orlanth going to
J>the lavatory, except if Eurmal was involved.

Amusing thought!  Any ideas?  What do you picture Sartar's
Bathrooms/whatever looking like?  Outhouses, meb?  I've heard a
few outhouse jokes that could be adapted but don't recall the

C>> Do you mean though that anyone not an initiate isn't 'going
C>> to Heaven (or whatever is appropriate)'?
J>Anyone not an initiate will have an afterlife as a spirit, as do the
J>shamanic creeds, IMO. If you call the Hall's of Orlanth Heaven, no, he
J>won't get there.

I think a good layman can go to heaven too, you don't need to be an
acolyte or anything.

C>> Does this last bit mean that lay worshippers can't worship?
J>They can, but ineffectively so. Their attendance certainly serves the

Certainly the initiate is more effective, but he's special.

J>cult, and may gain the laymen good standing and access to temple
J>facilities, but it won't effect their spiritual life if they aren't
J>initiated to any religion. The thing is different for associate cults,
J>whose participation in the friendly cults' worship ceremonies would ev
J>count towards their time requirement, and whose role is a lot more act

So those who have dedicated their lives to Orlanth worship Ernalda
better than the most dedicated laywoman?

J>All forms of worship hold elements of reenactments. When a christian

Well almost all... but you don't have to be an initiate to perform the
common rituals of a good.  Thats only required for the secret

C>> Arkat's struggle is most prominent in what way?  To which group of
J>The anti-Gbaji-campaign spanned all of known Genertela (face it: we
J>know next to nothing about the far east), and involved all religions
J>present at that time.

Point taken RE: East.  But this isn't the most important legend to most
worshippers/for most gods.  Intrersting writeup of your campaign.

J>Utterly wrong. It is perfectly possible to become initiated in as many
J>mutually friendly cults as one can afford, without _any_ interference
J>of retribution spirits. This is _not_ possible for Lord membership.
J>If you need an example, look at Bolthor Hairybreeks, King of the Bilin

I don't have CoT handy, but wasn't he the illuminated one?

J>He'd need ploughing magic or Bless Crops, Hide Wealth to ensure the
J>safety of the community's wealth, and whatever personal magic an Orlan
J>needs to fend for himself and his family.

These could be cast for him by a priestess in return for a portion of
his crops.  Ditto for the communit's money.  Spirit magic will take care
of the rest.

J>I see his afterlife as a member of Orlanth's Stead, where all of these
J>deities dwell.

Interesting idea!  But if he's an associate of all these gods, where
does he fit into the clan.  If he's an initiate of just one he's an part
of that god's family.

C>> Initiates "...pledge themselves to the focus of a single divine
C>>entity." (CoP 7)
J>I can't say when initiates to more than one cult first occured in RQ,
J>but they are present in Griffin Mountain, so this is no RQ3 innovation

Don't have that just yet.  How common are multiple initiates though?
Couldn't all of them be either illumintes or heroquesters?
Anyway the quote still stands on its own.  "single"!

J>>> In Orlanthi society: if you are a male, act like Orlanth, if a
J>>> female, like Ernalda. If you are a plowman, act like Barntar, if a
J>>> charioteer, like Mastakos. If you're a warrior, act like one of the

J>>> following: Orlanth, Humakt, Heler, Elmal, the Thunder Brothers,
J>>> Urox, any greater hero.
C>> Well I'd agree that the default if you're not an initiate of another
C>> cult is 'act like Orlanth', but if you are a trickster would you sti
C>> act like Orlanth?  How about if you're a Storm Bull?  
C>> So basically Orlanth would have almost all the people as lay members
J>As associates, at least. As a Storm Bull, you'd still reply to clan
J>structure, clan laws etc. like all Orlanthi. You're set apart as speci
J>hirdman, but while your drunkenness, upsetting behaviour and wanton
J>cruelty is recognized, in all other regards you are expected to func
J>as a member of the society laid out by Orlanth.

NO!  Storm Bulls act like Urox!  They don't function as normal
members of society.

J>As a Eurmali, you need to swear allegiance to an Orlanthi, and follow
J>his orders in a way most amusing and disturbing (e.g. by ignoring the
J>but Eurmal isn't an original member of Orlanth's stead, he became so
J>after the LBQ.

The Eurmali does whatever he feels like, so he's not a good
example (my fault).  LBQ--> Lesser Barba-Que? ;^)

C>> (after all...  does the average farmer need Divine Magic?)
J>Yes. Bless Crops is essential for economy ever since Genert died. And
J>a single acolyte of the Grain Goddess can only cast so many points
J>she has, plus one more for each two days. If she had to provide all
J>for say 50 steads answering to her shrine, each demanding one or two
J>points of Bless Crops, the last of these would receive their blessing
J>when the harvest is in. This is why farmers need reusable Bless Crop
J>spells, if only regained every second year (allowing for failed cerem

Straw man:  First a few initiates could spread the Bless Crops around.
She could have several castings built up over the year.  50 steads?
where'd that come from?  and lastly 50 points = 100 days, if she starts
casting well before the planting?  Don't have the description handy...
does it preclude this?

C>> and only exceptional types become initiated at all.
J>This contradicts most sources. Only extremely unexceptional individua
J>(trollkin) regularly turn up as lay members.

Well the sources generally only give stats for exceptional folks.  Cite
an unexcetional initiate for me?
                                   --==( Cullen )==--