From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 24 May 1994, part 3
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From: 100102.3001@CompuServe.COM (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Curse of the Fat fingers
Message-ID: <940523224553_100102.3001_BHJ65-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 23 May 94 22:45:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4118
Me in X-RQ-ID 4095:
>I am a RuneQuester rather than a Gloranthophile. Although I am currently
>running a campaign there I do accept everything in print as gospel
Ooops,
Make that 'I do _not_ accept everything in print as gospel'
No way. Phew.
*****
Scholars and Gamers
Alex has much to say, all of it well-reasoned, fair and communicated in a most
scholarly fashion ;-)...
>This is very much putting Descartes before the horse, in my view. If
>Glorantha is just a vehicle for Runequest to trundle along in, and must
>adapt itself to suit every idio[syn]c[hras]y of the RQ rules, how "real",
>how convincing, how likely to inspire creative endeavour, is it going to
>end up?
A competent GM will patently not squeeze Glorantha ruthlessly through the RQ
mangle but will use a fine (IMHO) game system to facilitate the exploration and
discovery of a wondrous creation. As to 'how likely to inspire creative
endeavour, is it going to end up?' I fail to see that this is a function of
anything much other than one's imagination. I do concede, however, that if one
feels constrained by a system then that may diminish one's inspirational
impulses (although if you _are_ constrained by your system then you're using it
wrongly).
Alex continues:
>Why, if we "dry scholars" are so irrelevant to good gaming, not just
>ignore these Dangerous Revisions, and play in _your_ (RuneQuest-friendly)
>Glorantha?
Thank you. I do.
Sandy agrees with me (well, OK, I agree with Sandy )...
>Without a game structure to enable us to visit Glorantha and
>play there, what's the point? If the only purpose of Glorantha is to
>serve as a common imaginary world-base to conjecture about, I'd much
>rather conjecture about Earth.
Exactly. Even the so-called 'scholars' amongst our happy number confess to
playing the game. It just seems to me that, whilst disassociating the lozenge
from the mechanics invented to explore it is undeniably in vogue (and arguably
more true to its roots as an intellectual exercise) to do so merely returns it
back to those roots. In which case you have a situation whereby the cognoscenti
are debating the minutiae of an entire world's cultures based on the trickle of
conflicting and evolving conceptualisations from its creator. I can accept that
this debate is useful to some in enhancing their 'feel' for the environment but
it seems like a darned 'dry' way of going about it. Whatever happened to good,
old-fashioned, imagination? You know, if it works for your group and then to
hell with everbody else. I mean, I always thought that RQ/Glorantha was
supposed to fun as well as intellectually stimulating.
Sandy's wise words continue:
>My own interest in Glorantha is two-fold: I _do_ enjoy the
>participation in the group fantasy. But more important is that
>Glorantha makes a realistic and three-dimensional game world to run
>campaigns in. Why not make up my own world? I've been asked this many
>a time. [...]
>Now, I've created plenty of my own game worlds. Probably most
>of us have. I use Glorantha for the simple reason that I have a
>finite amount of time to expend on my roleplaying activities. The use
>of Glorantha enables me to spend that finite time on working up
>scenarios and adventures, rather than background. In addition,
>Glorantha at its best stimulates me to think of new and exciting
>adventures in which to place my characters.
Bravo sir. I quite agree.
Peter :-%
---------------------
From: GBailey@aol.com
Subject: thieves, non-RQ Glorantha
Message-ID: <9405231913.tn407380@aol.com>
Date: 23 May 94 23:13:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4119
I'm on Devin's side concerning the scholar/gamer bit, but there's room for
both. Once in awhile I find a little tidbit that I might use from the
scholars (like the Origin of a rune). Not to say that Sandy is solely a
scholar, but probably he is the Second Scholar of all.
On a side note, I finally gave up on learning everything I can about
Glorantha so I know everything when the players ask questions. When
something comes up I'm going to wing it, maybe some knowledge might come from
some bit of trivial I read on the net or from a "rule"book but the players
won't know (none know much of anything of Glorantha).
I read the RQ/Glorantha stuff mostly for gaming idea. Now that doesn't
matter so much as I will be using the Hero system in Glorantha since I cannot
get anyone interested in RQ (and we play Champions a lot).
Thieves (okay, Eurmal worshippers). I'm a little confused on their actual
"worshipping". I suppose there are multitudes of sects (or flavors), but I
wonder if in Boldhome that a worshipper of Eurmal and a worshipper of (Lunar
thief diety's name here) would get along just fine if both are working
together. They may trade barbs while on the "mission" (like you see in the
movies) but a trickster is a trickster.
So scholars, when will you get all these neat ideas on paper and publish them
so I can have that Encylopedia Britannica sized information on Glorantha? I
suppose that will happen when you all agree on things :).
Glen
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: German RuneQuest-Con 94, and how I survived the Nick experi
Message-ID:
Date: 24 May 94 00:02:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4120
It is Pentecost Monday, 23:00. I've just finished unpacking my bundles
from German RQ-Con. I didn't sleep more than ten hours of the last 70
hours, and less than 5 the last 48 hours, so please bear with me - I'm
trying to get my impressions fresh into my terminal.
As usual, a crowd of fifty-odd RuneQuest fanatics gathered in enclosed
space made life interesting (i.e. hard). The offical opening of the
convention would have been Saturday, 3 o'clock, but as usual people
flocked in from 11 o'clock untl 7 o'clock. Sleeping places and eating
times had to be sorted out, and except for bold private initiative (I
got beaten by David Hall in scenario 3 of Dragon Pass due to a hellish
strategy of Sor-Eel's successor Nicolas Brocenius, which was aided by
an ill-omened moon which caused two crucial strikes of bad luck in
spite of a genius rallying move of the Sartarites) gaming waited until
six or so, when "The Great Troll" (inspired by a TV quiz show) saw a
splendid competition between five teams of Glorantha scholars. The
Reaching Moon team (which suffered from time delay for translation of
the questions) performed magnificently, but stumbled over a small
number of emperors and fell back to third place in a hairs' breadth
finale.
After eight o'clock a Cthulhu free form took off, accompanied by some
regular gaming rounds. Instead I sat down in a cosy corner to discuss
Gloranthan climate and weather, gods and facts in a small round which
was swelled later by our English guests who somehow couldn't establish
their creditability in the Cthulhu free form (good instincts of the
others, but more later) and who ended up as casualties. A comparative
analysis of both Glorantha and German beer kept us occupied until late,
myself right until breakfast. My Path Watch still active, I survived
both breakfast and the following trial of legal ceremony the club had
to undergo, to hear an excellent lecture on initiation the transcript
of which I hope to post (in Tradetalk) soon. While mostly my opinion,
not my authoring . Alex, be alert...
Also sometimes then (must have been in Godtime, my temporal memory is
somewhat fuzzy) we had a successful auction of stuff RuneQuest and
(un)related. The more spectacular items were a sealed Pavis Box (which
went away for 195 DM), a duck's head umbrella which flew to England
tonight, blue-prints of German RQ-products, out-of-print issues of Free
INT, Tales of the Reaching Moon and other fanzines.
A Glorantha panel hosted by our Reaching Moon Megacorp guests David
Hall and Nick Brooke spread insights among us continentals. I regret
not to have recorded the whole thing, but my befuddled memory might be
forced to reproduce some facts dissected there. A lot of questions were
similar to those of the Baltimore panel transscript, though.
The afternoon and evening continued with several game rounds. I joined
the English language Dark Age England scenario, got killed once and
mugged with the fall-back character, but inspired my comrades to
successfully hamper an evil pagan Cymric ritual, some sort of
necromancy to summon dead kings, by the names of Maxen, Constans and
Art-something. Wessex was saved, and the sole survivor of the battle of
Mons Badonicus some 60 years ago was presented to our king.
The night was spend in mild stupor and high Gloranthan spheres of
revelation. Poor Fazzur's fate might have been altered that night...
I suffered the Nick Brooke experience (well, he got an overdose of
Joerg, too). Both of us made our heroic effort rolls, though. I
collected a few compromising snippets I promised to publish.
Quoting Nick: "The problem is that after I finished university I was
only qualified to be a Dark Age warlord. There's little more one can do
with my degree [in classical history]." This does tell us a thing or
two about accounting, doesn't it?
Another incident during our efforts to save Wessex from the necromancy:
Nick's character, killing a Welsh prisoner of war during interrogation,
to the question "Why did you kill him?": "I don't speak his language."
(I won't compromise Nick further, there's some evidence against me as
well, hidden in silence. Suffice to say I had a visitation of the
internet Spirit of Reprisal, concerning my contributions to the
initiation debate.)
Today (I managed to steal a few hours of sleep in between) saw more
gaming sessions and a panel constituting the new editors of Free INT.
While I still am the internet contact, I'm no longer in charge. The new
editorial team are the very same persons who presented the first German
language RuneQuest supplement produced by them and published by
Deutsche RuneQuest-Gesellschaft. They did a great job, really.
BTW, Free INT 7, my attempt to produce a supplment for the Vikings Box,
didn't make it into print before the convention, it'll be out next
week.
All you people out there speaking no or only a little German, we could
do with more of you at our next convention, Pentecost 1995 in
Brieselang, a village right outside of Berlin. Info available via me.
Don't be afraid of our language, we manage to speak some English and to
stage English or mixed language events, such as a Glorantha free form
with lots of Lhankor Mhy scholars. We'll start working on this soon.
Enough for now, sleep finally conquers.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: Dieu et mon droit
Message-ID: <9405232112.tn411582@aol.com>
Date: 24 May 94 01:12:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4121
Ed Wallman--
OK, so why don't you make the Daily more useful? I promise
not to sneer. How about plot ideas, or histories of a kingdom,
or some detailed NPC's.
Gary Newton--
Isn't there a contradiction between saying peasants can up
sticks and leave, on the one hand, and saying that each society
is controlled by an oppressive military-religious cabal? Maybe
those nobles are holed up in their forts because they're afraid
of the lower classes. Or maybe the peasants have too much to
lose, now that they've grown prosperous. Or both.
Alex--
Are we agreeing or disagreeing about Xiola Umbar's
possession of Enchant Lead? Yes, there is low need-for; however,
there is a correspondingly low threshold for lead usage. And the
need-for is not vanishingly low, since XU is a semi-martial cult.
"Why would an exarch do his own enchanting, even if he really
_did_ want iron armour?"
I agree that exarchs are too busy to do that, but there are
priests of Godunya, who exist to support the social order of
which the exarchs are the leaders. So your argument mystifies
me.
Re: all this pagan-Malkioni business
Where Christianity met polytheistic cultures, syncretism
usually developed. Christianity is, for the most part, a
syncretism with Greek philosophy. Christianity in Ireland
appropriated, as some have observed, the most popular local gods
as saints. Voodoo and Santeria are a good bit more on the
polytheistic side of syncretism than Irish Christianity, but they
make dandy models for Stygianism such as Joerg's Aeolian church.
Just list all the gods, decide which saints they best match,
equate them, and go from there. BTW, Alex, ask your neighborhood
Voodoo cultist which god he or she is an initiate of. You'll get
a blank stare (or maybe a dead chicken on your doorstep).
Re: those Malkioni in Nochet with "pure" beliefs
If earthly religions are any guide, it is impossible for a
religion to avoid change. Some of it is gradual, as when people
brought little statues of Jesus and Mary into my grandmother's
Brethren church (which I thought would have been greeted much
like a hymn to Cthulhu). Other times, the change is more
dramatic. So, those guys in Nochet may believe they've preserved
their beliefs despite everybody, but you and I know they're
wrong.
Re: La Toile d'Arachne Solara
Si vous etes un francophone, il y a un nouveau fanzine pour
vous. Abonner aujourd'hui! 18 rue de Tourelle, 78730 Rochefort-
en-Yvelines, tel. 30.41.35.57, fax 30.41.94.38.
Well, actually, don't rush to the foreign exchange office
just yet. I don't know how much foreign subscriptions go for, or
whether l'Academie Francaise knows about "le fanzine" and "le
fax." Anybody know if they have an email address? Or how to do
accent marks with ASCII?
Thanks to Nick Brooke for putting me on to these guys.
Cullen O'Neill:
LBQ: Leg Before Quicket? Lyndon Baines Quonset? Litterarum
Baccalaureus something-beginning-with-Q?
--Martin
---------------------
From: jdegon@vega.iii.com (Jim DeGon)
Subject: Devin's Comments
Message-ID: <9405240141.AA05935@enrico>
Date: 23 May 94 11:41:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4122
Re: Devin's comments
I dislike the amount of conflict that has been engendered by Devin's
comments about the content of the daily. I agree with much of what he had
to say about the scholarly bent being intimidating to players and gm's of
the game, but I think that he may have invested enough emotion to cause a
scholarly backlash of sorts -- none of which is really interesting to argue
about.
The scholarly intimidation problem arises when the posters make an already
intimidatingly detailed world much moreso by "citing" and counter-"citing"
the sources; especially those long out of print or unpublished. Lately
this has been compounded by an nearly impenetrable argument in which the
posts are basically directed between two individuals. This would probably
have been better with more summarization and less quoting, or better yet,
fought out in email and then the two still-differing opinions posted in
detail. Technically, only Greg Stafford's opinion carries real weight,
while each individual's carries real game value. I'm sure that Devin and
Alex do not allow any players to quote Greg's material to them when they
have already decided to handle something otherwise.
I haven't actually noticed a lot of posting about rules questions, although
I remember one post to the RQAIG list with RQ3 questions (several months
ago) followed by the accusation "didn't anyone bother to playtest this
game?" which was answered with "didn't you bother to read the rulebook?".
This may or may not have been deserved, but it would be nice for all to
concentrate on constructive posting, and since this roleplaying game stuff
is really only a matter of taste, it might be nice to see a whole lot more
of these --> IMHO
^
Jim DeGon
---------------------
From: Aden_Steinke@ms-gw.uow.edu.au (Aden Steinke)
Subject: Gamers / Scholars
Message-ID: <199405240158.LAA10200@wyrm.cc.uow.edu.au>
Date: 24 May 94 22:55:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4123
Hi All;
Devin Cutler said
> Jesper Wahrner makes some good points about RQ and Glorantha,
> but I think he fails to realize that their will always be a
> schism between Glorantha as a literary creation and Glorantha
> (RQ) as a game.
IMHO it is not so much between Glorantha as a literary creation and as a game
as between Glorantha as a place to game in where players and GMs alike require
some 'absolutes' in order to maintain player involvement by those players that
do not have the time and or the inclination to keep up with the permutations
discussed in the RQ Daily, and Glorantha as a place for people to explore
theoretical possibilities.
> While a good literary creation does have to possess internal
> consistency, it does not have to provide, in full view of the
> public, a formulised mechanism for its inner workings.
True, to be a practicable gaming environment into which new players can be
brought the mechanisms should be both consistent and transparent - without Emal
/ Yelmalio changes suddenly appearing.
> Similarly, I am becoming less enamoured of how cults are being
> handled. Why this need for so many different cultic variations
> over Glorantha (i.e. "...what we really need is a cult of
> Yelmalio for Peloria, one for Prax, one of Pavis, one for
> Grazelanders, one for Sartar...")? Yes, cults varied wildly
> here on earth, but Glorantha is not earth.
Yes - while regional variation is necessary to provide spice to the gaming
environment, and such things as hero questing and regional practices can give
this variation - overall the Dieties in Glorantha are real and present in a
direct manner not experienced here on Earth. As such the basics of
creed/practice/behavior should be the almost the same eveywhere a God is
worshipped - Humakti would not be assasins, Orlanthi would not have local
relationships with Chaos - or the God would step in and either by cuting off
renewable divine magic and intervention or by reprisal.
Otherwise you are saying that the Gloranthan Gods are not 'real' self willed
entities with likes and dislikes. If behavior or structure is pleasing to
Humakt in one place it should be pleasing in another.
Aden Steinke
a.steinke@uow.edu.au
---------------------
From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: RQ Adventure Clearinghouse
Message-ID:
Date: 24 May 94 04:13:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4124
Mark Minster, one of the RuneQuest-Con committee, would like to
offer a service to the RQ-playing population at large.
Mark is volunteering to act as an "Adventure Clearinghouse."
Anyone who has RQ adventures written up is asked to submit them
to Mark. Anyone looking for an adventure should contact Mark, and
he'll send one (or more?) out.
Granted, the details still have to be ironed out. Who pays postage?
Who pays photocopying costs? I don't see these as anything which
should slow the process, however. I've even offered to kick in some
money to fund the initial effort.
Mark has clearly stated that his goal is not just to get paper cuts
on his fingers. Mark asks that anyone who asks for an adventure
be willing to go out and _evangelize_; to find people who haven't
yet been converted to the RQ path and work to draw them in.
Run the adventures at your local conventions. Find groups of
misguided D&Ders and Shadowrunners and convince them to give RQ a
try. To emphasize the point: the intent is _not_ to provide you
material for your current campaigns. Mark, for one, feels that
he'd like to work to introduce new players to RQ, but he's just
not sure he can write good material. You sending him adventures
will allow him to run newbies, and he's willing to distribute
the stuff so others can do so as well.
I think this is a great idea, and not just because I hinted at the need
for such a setup in my RQ-Con Book essay "Gaming Evangelism." ;-)
I always thought that the RPGA was a really good idea, spoiled by those
silly experience points for Players & DMs (and the quality of some of
the submissions).
Submissions! Obviously, this whole idea won't work unless you folks send
Mark adventures to distribute! I could go on for endless paragraphs of
oratory, but I don't think I have to. Obviously, it's real easy to ask,
and much harder to acutally do the ~work~ involved in sending your adventure
in for distribution. Your main reward will be knowing your name is
prominently on the front of every copy that goes out.
Any questions can come to me, and I'll pass them along to Mark (who doesn't
have Internet access). Submissions & requests can go to:
Mark Minster
37 Renaissance Drive
Second Floor
Clifton, NJ 07013 USA
(201) 533-3379
Remember, there won't be RuneQuest players for you to game with
tomorrow unless you work to grow some today.
Thanks for your help.
* David Cheng drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu cheng@io.com
(212) 472-7752 [before midnight] GEnie: D.CHENG