From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 25 May 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Immanent deities and the Aeolian misunderstanding
Message-ID:
Date: 24 May 94 19:20:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4141
Joerg to Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4104
Not on initiation, at least not as main theme.
> You appeared to be agreeing with faint damns. ("'s, GLism...)
Not intended.
> When did the IG become immanent? Since he isn't, how does he get to decide
> who's a true follower? If he were, how soon could we expect the first
> divinations to clear up minor details such as the Hrestol/Rokar split?
> (While I disagree with those that think having a manifest god handy
> eliminates theological and factional disputes, it might just keep it down
> to a dull roar, which the Malkioni could only envy.)
It seems that my impression of the Compromise and its consequences differ
from yours. I thought that the Compromise kept the deities out of
day-to-day affairs of Glorantha, let alone have them worry over minor
details as squabbles between different local interpreteations.
There is one good precedent for this attitude in the Orlanth cult: During
the First Age Lokayamadon (sp? pronounciation?) was pro-Osentalka, Harmast
was anti-, both were Orlanthi heroes. During the Second Age there were
Ingolf Dragonfriend and Alakoring Dragonbreaker, both valid Orlanthi heroes.
All of these were true followers (well, maybe Loayamadon wasn't).
It seems the universal divinity of Saints is true from the deities' point
of view.
I don't believe either that it is possible to look at someone's runes,
not even for temple spirits. I liked the explanation why (some, per RQ3)
illuminates are immune to spirits of reprisal: they don't feel the guilt
the spirits need for homing in on the miscreant. Nothing divine in this.
> Only enforcable by mundane means, not divine ones.
After our fray about joining a religion, now one about leaving it?
> If a theist commits
> a sacrilegious act, various consequences ensue, _without_ any human
> intervention. (To wit, becoming an Inactive initiate (which has more than
> just "rules nit" consequences, and/or spirits of reprisal.)
You become inactive already if you don't show up for the High Holy Day
ceremony (unless you got leave, like that keeper of Greenbrass). The
spirits of reprisal are summoned and sent by priests using Command
Cult Spirit, as I understood it.
Like I said above, I have a more stringent view about the Compromise and
its consequences.
> Excommunication
> needs human action, but will generally follow from the foregoing, and has
> tangible affects. ("My Son, why have you Gone Inactive, and why are those
> Flint Slingers banging away at your noggin? Consider yourself
> an ex-initiate.")
Those Flint Slingers were homing in on his feeling of guilt or betraying,
not on the very act, unless he broke the cult restrictions in a way blatant
to even an entity outside time.
> If a Rokari flouts his religions strictures, nothing much happens, unless
> he's caught with his hand in the poor box, or some other part of his
> anatomy in a local peasant wench/sheep/chaos monster. Even then, it's
> a matter for the vagarities of human sanctions.
The Yelmalio village foreman in Gaumata's vision had not been visited by
Monrogh, either.
> Where a manifest (deity|saint) is worshipped too, your kilometrage may
> clearly vary. ("No, really, I left the monks of St. Gerlant Flamesword
> for, errrr, personal reasons.")
Why so? The only reason I'd accept is that the person which has learned
to invoke a saint has become the Saint's Rune Lord or something similar.
> Cloud Call is a _spectacularly_ useful spell: not only is it the duty
> of every Orlanth priest to pray daily for rain ("Here, cloudy-cloudy!"),
> but also it might just make the difference to whether or not you can cast
> Thunderbolt.
Doesn't impress me. On a clear day I'd need 53 points of divine magic to
cast one Thunderbolt. 53 Lightnings instead would incinerate anything,
even a true dragon...
>> What is heretical in saying that Orlanth is supreme King of Gods, and
>> has the most noble ancestry of all Elements?
> The juxtaposition, for one thing. The chances of taking two quite distinct
> theologies and combining them in a way acceptable to both is very slim
> ("either" would be a struggle); religious people tend to be touchy about
> these things, for some strange reason.
Only if they are made aware of the differences. Right now (1621), with the
Lunars as common enemy, even the Kitori are "very good, very old pals we
have lovedf for ages" in Sartar.
> This is more than a little too glib. You've given examples of characters
> who're essentially pure sorcerors, with a veneer of Theyalan "saint"
> worship, and then claimed that when sighted by Orlanth cultists, they
> rush together for a brotherly hug? Perhaps the ones you've mentioned
> aren't typical, or perhaps they just keep very quiet about the s*rc*ry...
I told you before: It is no sorcery, it is just another way of doing
cult magic:
>> I doubt the average Gloranthan will notice the difference between a
>> somewhat outlandish casting of a spirit spell and a sorcery spell.
> If the cult advertises the fact, and it is practically bound to in this
> case, given the explicit role of the IG in their theology, and the presence
> about Whitewall of twenty foot signs saying "Wizard's Guild, apply within",
> I think he might. I'd give him an INTx5% roll, perhaps.
The symbol of the church is the Air Rune in the Law triangle. It stands
for the Compromise and its Creator. Some parts of the liturgy use Arkat's
native language (Old Seshnegi). Do you speak it? Then how would you know
that these parts speak about sorcery?
>> The Aeolians are far more off-Malkioni than off-Theyalan. This is, their
>> Malkionism is far more compromised than Irish Christianity ever was.
> That the proposed religion oozes with sorcery, has the Invisible God
> as the first deity of its Trinity, and reduces every other deity in sight
> to the status of "saint" suggests to me that it's Malkionised enough to
> have the typical tribesman sharpening a stake or twelve.
What's worse: they live in cities, build roads, and can read! They must be
God Learners!
> Okay, I exagerate: after all, the two religions aren't _particularly_
> hostile to each other, relatively speaking. However, they are a long
> way from being co-religionists, and have the added gulf of a different
> "mode" of worship to overcome.
This is what I doubt, and wanted to try out with my experiment to put
a "Stygian" creed into fully fleshed out life.
>> I have little personal experience with catholicism, but I bow to the
>> inside knowledge of Greg Stafford, who has been quoted to say it was
>> a polytheistic religion.
> If Greg's an unbiased observer, I'm an enthusiastic proponent of
> pantheonistic initiation.
About as unbiased as you or me...
> At any rate, if there's ever been more than
> Three gods (more like two and a bit) in Christianity, there's been a strict
> pecking order, and the intent has been subversion, not incorporation.
You forget the Mother of God worship, which adds on a goddess.
> That some saints are pagan co-optees isn't in doubt. But how many
> Wotanists think Christianity is a great religion because of all the
> pagan trappings, not to say name, of Easter?
Quite a few did, and were impressed with all the reliquiars. Some were
so impressed they decided to take them home with them (793, Lindisfarne).
Seriously, all the pagan t(r)appings of the Christian Church made the
christanisation of the Germanic tribes so easy. (Well, they cut of a few
thousand heads now and then...)
> Certainly the "true" saints of the West seem to be regarded very
> differently from gods, so I don't think you can entirely escape the
> "20th century" connotations I suggest.
"Malkion was an Air God. The Westerners call him Saint and Prophet. We
call his family so, as well."
> I suspect that the Ralian Henotheistic Church doesn't use the term saint
> for "actual" deities, but that other Malkioni (heretical) cults, who
> consider the manifest deities less important, do.
First of all, I believe that there are a lot of henotheist churches,
or at least sects (subcults), in Ralios. Some are Stygian, some are
Cthonic, some are Aeolian, and some are Solar. A lot of these have animal
saints replacing the old Hsunchen deities, IMO. They might look at
Suranthir the Non-heretic as a common highest authority in their struggle
against Tanisoran Rokari uniformism.
Then I believe that if not in Ralios, where else would you find all
degrees from casual mentioning of theist gods in Malkioni creed to
"we worship many gods: [...], oh yes, and then there's the Invisible
God, and his high priest Malkion."
> Bit of a fine distinction, then. At any rate, what I was suggesting was
> that if a god receives active, fairly "traditional" worship in an area,
> having a bunch of Wizards swan along and downrate him to Saint Thingy
> isn't likely to cause them to whoop for joy.
Otkorion has both the seat of the Archbishop of the Henotheist Church
and a Great Temple to Orlanth. Where is this religious war you seem to
ask for in Hendrikland there in Ralios? I see peaceful and fruitful
coexistence, not religious rivalry, between the Henotheists and the
theists.
> Using the same term for obscure heroes
> and major deities doesn't really inspire confidence in claims that this
> _isn't_ a questioning of the importance of the latter, though.
Obscure heroes like Arkat and major deities like Minlister? Come on.
>> You go to Solace in Orlanth's Halls. Easy, isn't it?
> Facile, even. If you subscribe to this idea of cultic afterlife
> determinism, how does a religious life dominated by wizardry and tacking
> on active Orlanth worship as an optional extra "earn" you a place there?
> Much as you approve of "true" afterlives, I think this'd work better as
> a false one.
I didn't say you come to the good parts of it, automatically. Your
lifetime actions define the actual place you inhabit in your afterlife.
Actually I am not quite sure that the mainstream Malkioni "earn" Solace.
What do the experts think?
> Actually, I have very few objections to the Aeolian Church, apart from where
> you've put it.
I didn't put it there. I learned about its existence when I wrote my
first Gloranthan scenario for Free INT 5 from someone who told
me to ask Sandy Petersen, which I did, and then I just took the
meagre info I had and built a cult write-up and all the other stuff
which finally amounted to my ongoing campaign around it.
> BTW, where does the name come from?
I just disagreed (quite hotly) with David Hall about this. David says it
comes from Saint Aeol, a companion of Arkat who founded the creed.
I say it comes from "Aeolian [...]. adj. 1. pertaining to Aeolus, or
to the winds in general.", to quote Webster's. It's an adjective lent
from Greek language, just as "cthonic" means pertaining to Earth, or
"Stygian" pertaining to Darkness.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz (Mike Dickison)
Subject: Trading
Message-ID: <199405212258.AA07947@rata.vuw.ac.nz>
Date: 22 May 94 22:59:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4126
(Henk - please forward to Daily)
There's been a lot of discussion pointing out that rules-type postings are
Nothing To Be Ashamed Of, so here's one.
The RQ rules dwell quite some length on combat, but hardly touch other
activities involved in a game. In particular, one of my players is a
ordinary wandering Issaries peddler, who is a useless fighter and would
much rather spend his time trading. Of course he knows his languages, and
acts as ambassador and negotiator for the party, but I can tell he's
itching to go into the nearest city, buy a cart, and start making some
cash.
While it would be easy to deduct some money from him, invent a cartload of
plausible trade goods, and let him wander where he wants, the whole process
of trading would be kept in the background and administered by GM fudging,
when the Issarian wants to roleplay it, and let his skill and good
judgement achieve his character goals. And who can blame him? That's what
the game's about, after all. Except I don't get much help from the rules.
There's a short section on prices, which tells me that something becomes
2.5 times as valuable if I spend the day carrying it from Fay Jee to Peelo
(except when it doesn't, left for the GM to decide), and gives me the price
of almost nothing that most civilians would want, and no encumbrances. And
there's a Bargaining skill, with which a average (75%) trader can quite
easily get something for half price with a single dice roll, *irrespective*
of the skill of the person being bargained against (except when they can't,
left for the GM to decide).
Imagine if combat had been so well designed. "OK, you attack the three
ducks and the Death Lord. Your sword does 10 points of damage, but you
spent the day sharpening it, so now it does..ummm..20. Roll your Fight
skill for each opponent to see if you kill them. Oh, the Death Lord has
plate armour, so subtract 25% from that roll." What fun. Such scope for
role-playing.
This is what I think I'm going to need to make trading a reasonably
interesting profession (and achieve my dream of having a game session
without any combat).
1) A table of the common trade goods in my area, with centres of
origin and common destinations. From this, trade routes and common cargoes
can be extrapolated. A starter list was posted for Handra some time ago,
but I've added a lot to it since then.
2) Buy/sell unit prices at the source of the goods, halfway from it,
and at the furthest point. There should be a base cost below which the
producers of the good will not go. Prices should also flutuate randomly,
seasonally, and with campaign events like wars.
3) Unit weight for each trade good, and standard cart, boat, and
caravan costs and capacities. Cost of maintaining a boat or caravan have to
be included here (repair, feeding, mercenaries).
4) A bargaining mechanic that uses both buyer and seller skills, and
in which the rolled skill-vs-skill difference translates neatly into a
(modest) price differential. Most importantly, there should be bonuses and
penalties for good and bad roleplaying, and some opportunity for players to
use strategy and wit, so they feel they and not the dice are doing the
work.
5) Finally, the whole thing has to be worked out so that an average trader
on an average year with an average cargo will make a modest profit, to stop
the PCs getting rich without some effort and luck. And so that it, I repeat
once again, allows lots and lots of scope for bartering, bombastical,
sneaky, barefaced roleplaying.
This is what I need. I've worked out the basics, but I particularly want
feedback from other GMs. How do you handle ordinary meat-and-potatoes
non-Biturian trading? Rather than all post tables and tables of different
trade goods, it would be nicer to collaborate on a reasonable system that
we can agree on through e-mail, post regular summaries to the Daily (I'd
hate for this to turn into an interminable one-on-one bickering match), and
archive the result in soda.berkeley.
So; starter questions: Where is gold and copper mined? How much does a
caravan cost to run, given an average probability of bandits? Linen,
silk...what are some other common fabrics, who makes them, and who wears
them? Any insurance schemes for the pirate-ravaged Wenelian coastline? Is a
kg weight OK, or do we need to take volume into account when trying to fit
cotton bales onto a wagon (and what do cotton bales cost and weigh,
anyway?) Gifts of maple syrup, getting a stall next to the latrines...what
are some other roleplaying influences on your bargaining success?
Mike Dickison
adzebill@matai.vuw.ac.nz
---------------------
From: henkl@aft-ms (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Humble Neophyte seeks aid
Message-ID: <9405240904.AA20917@aft-ms.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 24 May 94 10:04:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4127
In-reply-to: habowman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Hal Bowman)
You write:
>Good Morning! I am a humble neophyte who is now totally lost about what has
>happened with RQ. Instead of bothering the experts on this list with my
>naive questions, could someone tell me where I can write for answers to
>really basic rule and culture questions? BTW, I noticed lots of famous
>nameshere. Kudos for your efforts!
Your questions are welcome here. If only to keep
those ``experts'' with their feet firmly on the ground...
>Hal Bowman habowman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
>Department of Geography 'Ask me about Project Mayhem'
--
Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[] | My first law of computing: "NEVER make assumptions"
---------------------
From: x820660@fcusqnt.fcu.edu.tw (Bill Robertson)
Subject: Elf forests.
Message-ID: <9405240954.AA00789@fcusqnt.fcu.edu.tw>
Date: 25 May 94 01:54:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4128
I'm only five days behind on the digest, so if this posting is now
irrelevant then please forgive.
I don't think comparing Earth forests and Elf Forests is worthwhile. Elf
Forests aren't left to chance. I don't think it's unreasonable at all
to say that there are no pure broad leaf Elf Forests in Glorantha. There
aren't any because that's the way the Elves want it. Call it, "Forest
and Regional Planning," if you will.
The composition of non-Elf forests might be similar to Earth forests, but
I think that we need to step back for awhile and consider the magical
ecology of Glorantha. Who knows what spirits and other factors influence
the growth of a forest in Glorantha? I don't.
An Elf-Forest is not a transplanted Earth forest.
Malkionism isn't warmed over Christianity.
Kralorela isn't a stir-fried China.
Toodle-oo!
Bill
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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: Heresy!
Message-ID: <940524081621221@thuemmel.com>
Date: 24 May 94 14:57:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4129
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 4084
NB>Ever hear of the Adamites? An early sect of Christian nudists, who
NB>shunned clothing so as to return to primal innocence (a la Garden of
NB>Eden) and died out for reasons unknown (presumably either from
NB>embarrasment, or when the weather turned colder, or maybe they found
NB>out it didn't work). Sadly, they were *TOO* early for inclusion in
NB>Credo! (though we do have a more-or-less complete prequel game, The
NB>Great Persecutions).
Yeah, they're one of the truly mind boggling heresies of all time! If I
may quote from Norman Cohn's 'In Pursuit of the Millenium', for a bit:
"They held that God dwelt in the Saints of the Last Days, that is, in
themselves; and that that made them superior to Christ, who by dying had
shown himself to be merely human. They accordingly dispenced with the
Bible, the Creed, and all booklearning, contenting themselves with a
prayer which ran: 'Our Father who art in us, illumine us, thy will be
done...' They maintained that heaven and hell had no existance save in
the righteous and unrighteous respectively; and that they would live
forever as denizens of the earthly Millennium."(Cohn 219-220)
Now just to get back on topic: How come there arn't any great heresies
like this for the Malkioni? I mean ones that take the symbolism and
myths of Malkionism and give them this kind of 180 degree turn? Or how
about the Gnostics with their interpretation of the Adam, Eve, and the
Serpent thing (see Pagels).
Answer because the Malkioni don't have any interesting myths for us to
play with, unlike every other mythos that works. This is why I feel
that Malkionism is a weak point of the game, no stories about the
Creator or the saints, etc to work with... see I was on topic the whole
time ;^).
Back to the original question, yes they went naked, but not ritually,
because they regarded themselves at all times as having regained that
'state of innocence enjoyed by Adam and Eve'(Cohn 220)
This idea with the Gloranthan dieties as angels has promise! Did
they rebel and go off to get worshipped? Or are they still loyal?
Do they exist or not? What myths of their interaction with the
Creator exist? With mankind? But can't we call them something a
little less RW-ish? Using 'Saints' is bad enough! Saints and
Angels and The Creator ==> too like Christianity (maybe)!
NB>Glorantha was first revealed to the public through White Bear & Red
NB>Moon, then through Wyrms Footnotes (which had fascinating, scholarly
NB>articles by Greg on religion - reprints coming soon from the Reaching
NB>Moon Megacorp!) and Nomad Gods, and only afterwards through
NB>RuneQuest. Claims of gaming primacy, special pleading and the
NB>"historic debt" we all owe to RuneQuest fall down on this simple
NB>point.
Therefore I suggest humbly that any elements not condusive to
playing WB&RM be dispenced with imediately!
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 4093
NB>Fortunately, members of monotheist churches are usually far more
NB>concerned about heresies (which are often infectious and can spread
NB>inside their own church) than about paganism per se, which isn't and
NB>can't. Best example in the real world is the success of the Varangian
... [ommitted for 'brevity'}
NB>Malkioni. You're going to have a hard time for being foreigners, but
NB>that happens wherever you go. You're unlikely to burn for it, unless
NB>it serves the purposes of the scenario (check Genertela Book for
NB>frequency of lynch mobs on the Western Regional Activity Table).
This fits in well with the above! What I want in the west is rampant
Heresies! I posit that most of the major sects don't fight too much
becuse they're all too busy burning the real nutters in their own
regions. Now all I need to do is figure out some really off the
wall interpretations of Malkionism, any ideas?
Cullen