From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 26 May 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander) Subject: Campaign styles & more Message-ID: <9405251730.AA27279@ppvku.ericsson.se> Date: 25 May 94 21:30:08 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4166 Nils Weinander writing Devin Cutler asks: >I don't really prefer one type of campaign (Heroic vs non-Heroic) over >another, can am adept at running either. However, I noticed, when I first >started playing and then running RQ1 and RQ2 that most RQ campaigns tended to >be non-heroic. This kind of makes sense for a system where combat is so >deadly and magic so personal. Never one to run from a challenge, however, I >wanted to see if RQ can be run in a heroic vein. I can say that it can, from >personal experience. > >I woudl be interested in hearing if anyone else runs a heroic campaign with >RQ in general or Glorantha in specific. In my gaming group (I am mostly a player, but I do GM if I come up with a great scenario idea which fits in the campaign) we tend to run heroic campaigns. In most cases we have started at humble levels, with young and inexperienced characters, but they usually rise to fame and power before the end of the campaign. We all prefer to play epic sagas of heroic struggle so we have never considered doing a grim and gritty sociological simulation of the agricultural year in eastern Sartar or something like that. Since we prefer a more cinematic game the GM is rather generous with experience gain and magic. We also play in a rather non-canonical Glorantha, where the guy who GMs most of the time modifies things as he pleases to suit his taste. We tend to move around a lot, so like in Sandy's description of his campaigns we tend to run the different countries as less xenophobic and more open than described. Our current main campaign is the most high-powered so far. All characters are rune level, in the 150% class, and renowned heroquesters. --- Joerg's essay on the five sons of Umath is definitely a Good Thing. That kind of research is most useful. Now there is just the problem of deciding which data are true for a campaign... --- Gamers and scholars: perhaps it is time to call a cease fire? If we all restrain our mean natures we can stop calling each other ugly names and the daily will be a friendlier place. The key issue is that no way of approaching Glorantha is better or worse than another. All in my opinion of course. /Nils W --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Henotheism'n'stuff. Message-ID: <9405251751.AA21009@barren.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 25 May 94 17:51:32 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4167 Joerg quotes me: > > I suspect that the Ralian Henotheistic Church doesn't use the term saint > > for "actual" deities, but that other Malkioni (heretical) cults, who > > consider the manifest deities less important, do. I quote Joerg: > First of all, I believe that there are a lot of henotheist churches, > or at least sects (subcults), in Ralios. Some are Stygian, some are > Cthonic, some are Aeolian, and some are Solar. A lot of these have animal > saints replacing the old Hsunchen deities, IMO. Indeed, there are many henotheist churches, but there is one (apparently) _called_ "the Henotheistic Church". Whether it's in any way a unitary religion I have no idea. But it seems natural to me to suppose that, generally speaking, each sect or religion uses the term "saint" to indicate whether it considers an entity is a "lesser" one, comparable to the mortal saints of orthodox Malkionism, or a "greater" one, mentionable in the same breath as "real" gods, like the IG. (Just not "I".) I'm not enamored of the idea of all sects using the term for everyone in sight, regardless about their beliefs about them. > Then I believe that if not in Ralios, where else would you find all > degrees from casual mentioning of theist gods in Malkioni creed to > "we worship many gods: [...], oh yes, and then there's the Invisible > God, and his high priest Malkion." In Ralios, indeed. Though the Carmanians may have invented a flavour all of their own. (Or not.) > > Using the same term for obscure heroes > > and major deities doesn't really inspire confidence in claims that this > > _isn't_ a questioning of the importance of the latter, though. > Obscure heroes like Arkat and major deities like Minlister? Come on. Come on, indeed. Arkat isn't an obscure hero, and Minlister isn't a deity I've heard of. Could you please disagree with the point I was making, not the straw man I wasn't? If you use one set of terminology for one group of gods (the Aeolian Trinity) and another for a second group, (the Aeolian saints), then you're implying that each is different from the other group, and similar to members of the same group. That is, Issaries andare "just" saints, while Orlanth and the Invisible God are "proper members of the trinity". I don't say this structure isn't possible, or even unlikely, generally speaking, but where it does occur, it's likely to be regarded with suspicion by "orthodox" worshippers of, say, Issaries. If you insist on picking holes in your own divine/mortal distinction, then substitute "considered important" and "considered not so important". > > Actually, I have very few objections to the Aeolian Church, apart from where > > you've put it. > I didn't put it there. I can't help thinking this isn't a response to what I said, but let me rephrase more carefully: "I have very few objections to a religion existing in Glorantha with a theology and structure like that you propose for the Aeolian Church, but I do not think that such a church would be widely worshipped in Heortland." > > Bit of a fine distinction, then. At any rate, what I was suggesting was > > that if a god receives active, fairly "traditional" worship in an area, > > having a bunch of Wizards swan along and downrate him to Saint Thingy > > isn't likely to cause them to whoop for joy. > Otkorion has both the seat of the Archbishop of the Henotheist Church > and a Great Temple to Orlanth. Where is this religious war you seem to > ask for in Hendrikland there in Ralios? I said nothing about a religious war (between who?); clearly my occassional attempts at levity via stake-sharpening remarks has either fallen rather flat, or is being actively misconstrued. > I see peaceful and fruitful > coexistence, not religious rivalry, between the Henotheists and the > theists. I've no idea, off the top of my head, what political situation pertains in Otkorion, but I certainly don't think "conversative" Orlanthi, and full-blown henotheists (of the "St. Orlanth" persuasion, as it were) consider themselves co-religionists. (Or should that be "co-cultists"?) Similarities of religious belief can be cause for either buddy-buddy ecumenicalism, or for outright hostility. Alex. --------------------- From: NDROBINS@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA Subject: Rules and Research Message-ID: <9405251749.AA0433@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA> Date: 25 May 94 18:16:27 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4168 In X-RQ-ID: 4149, Peter Whitlaw complains that many of his questions haven't been answered. I have found quite the opposite, although often the replies have been by private e-mail. Heck, if you know someone is an 'expert' in a field, ask them directly. The bandwidth of the digest is limited, and as others have stated, not always well suited to a question-answer format. Rules questions are often difficult to answer, and we usually end up 'winging' half the rules anyway. With the myriad of versions of RQ being played, many of the people cannot answer your rules questions, especially regarding combat. In the game I run, the only combat I've had involved a single starving rubble runner - not much need of a complex combat system there. ******** In X-RQ-ID: 4143, Mike Dawson asks about the format for new RQ products. Yes, RQ is expensive, but so are most other role-playing game supplements. Saying that, they are far cheaper than computer games. The idea of splitting the GM and player sections of packages is good for two reasons. First, it allows the GM to easily give players reference material and handouts without worrying that the plot will be destroyed. I find that a well-placed prop can be very effective. Second, it MAY encourage players to purchase the product as well. However, I'm not convinced about the second reason. My players, with perhaps a single exception, will never spend a dime on RQ unless they actually decide to run a game. I find that most of the people I game with have grown out the AD&D 'gotta have all the supplements' phase and really aren't interested in owning their own copies of the stuff. The RQ GMs have typically been role-playing for several years, and are at the point where they make up most of their old stuff anyway. Heck, one of the reasons I keep buying the packages is to help support RuneQuest and Glorantha, even if I can't ever see myself using all of them. The way to really increase the sales is to bring in the cash-rich youth. Our RQ gaming circle has increased from 3 to 10, but only one person has bought a single item outside of the original three gamers. Whew....more than I expected to say, Neil P.S. Has anyone considered an international gaming directory for RuneQuest? Outside of my group, it seems like the nearest other RQ gamer is David Dunham in Seattle. I hope that isn't the case. _______________________________________________________________ Neil Robinson NDROBINS@NDROBINS.FIN.GOV.BC.CA --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: hi Message-ID: <9405251939.AA18889@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 25 May 94 07:39:06 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4169 Alex, defending Orlanth's spell choice, sez: >> Cloud Call is a _spectacularly_ useful spell: not only is it the >>duty of every Orlanth priest to pray daily for rain ("Here, >>cloudy-cloudy!"), but also it might just make the difference to >>whether or not you can cast Thunderbolt. Joerg retorts: >Doesn't impress me. On a clear day I'd need 53 points of divine >magic to cast one Thunderbolt. 53 Lightnings instead would >incinerate anything, even a true dragon. In the first place, 53 lightnings wouldn't incinerate a True Dragon, since they have complete control of all energy flow around them. But more importantly, Thunderbolt and Lightning are nigh-unto useless to the average Sartarite. Sure, it's nice for the priest to have, say one Thunderbolt and a coupla Lightnings so that if a bear is carrying off the lambs he can fry it in a suitably impressive manner. But Cloud Call -- THAT'S useful! If your priest has Cloud Call, and casts it a third as often as possible (i.e., once every 3 days), over the course of the year it adds up to about one extra nice big rainstorm for that year you'd not have had otherwise. Might not seem like much until you remember that the guy upstream from you is doing it too. And the guy upstream from him... In the end, you have LOTS of extra rain over any Orlanthi territory. Magic ecology at its finest. Of course, PC adventurer-types probably won't get Cloud Call too often, but the very fact that most acolytes and storm priests are casting Cloud Call all the time is what gives the Orlanthi culture its strength. Why have the Orlanthi displaced other folks from the hill country? Cloud Call is a big part of it. The Orlanthi get plenty of rainfall, and their crops grow well even in the comparatively poor upland area, and so they are a force to be reckoned with. If it weren't for the humble acolyte tending his Cloud Call shrine, your PC adventurers wouldn't even GET to cast Thunderbolt, because Orlanth would be a puny little unimportant god without major temples. > BTW, where does the name [Aeolian Heresy] come from? It comes from me. I made it up. I did base it on the name Aeolus, using the logic that it should be similar to the name Stygian. >Actually I am not quite sure that the mainstream Malkioni "earn" >Solace. What do the experts think? I think that most Malkioni must do good acts and keep the commandments to get to Solace. I'm not sure where they think "bad" Malkioni go, but I'm convinced that they believe that a bad guy won't get into Solace. >> I doubt the average Gloranthan will notice the difference between >> a somewhat outlandish casting of a spirit spell and a sorcery >> spell. I've always felt that spirit magic and sorcery looked very different. Not only in the postures and words spoken by the caster, but also in the visible & audible effects of the spell. Mike Dickison says he's concerned about trader-characters in RQ, and mentions that the RQ rules don't cover it in great detail. This is quite true. The fact that no one else's rules cover the subject satisfactorily, either, doesn't really solve the problem. My previous campaigns have always had lots of trading. In fact, my current campaign is mostly trade-based. I've had to fudge most of it. You suggested: >2) Buy/sell unit prices at the source of the goods, halfway from it, >and at the furthest point. It would probably be simpler to have a "standard price" for goods, and then vary it by a multiplier depending on whether you were at a source of the goods or far off. For instance, if iron normally costs 600 L/kg, then you could assume that it cost half that in an area where it was mined (Seshnela), and that it was worth at least double that in a place like Prax. >4) A bargaining mechanic that uses both buyer and seller skills, and >in which the rolled skill-vs-skill difference translates neatly into >a (modest) price differential. Most importantly, there should be >bonuses and penalties for good and bad roleplaying, and some >opportunity for players to use strategy and wit, so they feel they >and not the dice are doing the work. My own technique is that I don't let the player even roll the bargaining/fast talk/oratory D100 until he's managed to make a passable attempt at bargaining/etc. with me. Once he's done the requisite convincing of me, I let the dice be the judge of his success. If he's spectacularly successful in talking to me and the other PCs (i.e., he makes me laugh), I usually just let him succeed, but I still have him roll the dice to see if he got an extra-good success. >Where is gold and copper mined? Where ever best for your campaign. I don't know of any "famous" gold mines in Glorantha, which is probably a feature of Greg's uninterest rather than their non-existence. There doesn't seem to be any major mining operations in Dragon Pass, outside Dwarf Run. Maybe people pan for gold in the river running past the Hill of Gold in Peloria? >How much does a caravan cost to run, given an average probability of >bandits? I generally fight this part out, rather than abstracting it. >Linen, silk...what are some other common fabrics, who makes them, >and who wears them? I don't think that "silk" is common. I think it's highly exotic, and from the east. Other common fabrics = canvas, flax, wool, leather. >Any insurance schemes for the pirate-ravaged Wenelian coastline? Any insurance companies along this coast went broke long ago. >what do cotton bales cost and weigh, anyway? Is there cotton in western Genertela? I thought it was a more modern discovery. A cotton bale weighs a couple of hundred pounds. Joerg comments on the lack of a US RQ org. >I don't know why you don't get organized then in your respective >home We don't get government funding for our "youth organizations". Also, our country is far vaster in size, and much more sparsely populated. It's physically hard for a band of RQers in one part of the country to contact those in another. Alex: >> Knighthood is a remarkably mundane concept, when it comes right >>down to it. I bet there are "pure" Malkioni knights who don't even >>engage in >>"pseudo- cultic" saint worship of any kind. Joerg: >Knighthood is a remarkably religious concept, with initiation said initiation! throw the stones> vigils, pompous ceremony, >idealistic codes of honour and all that stuff. At its best, Joerg is right. At its worst, Alex is. Obviously plenty of knights skipped the vigils and codes of honor. I expect the Malkioni run the gamut. Perhaps the specialty knightly organizations, like the Order of the Swallow, have all the pomp and ceremony, while most knights just heft a sword and pray on Sunday (if at all). I mentioned that Chalana Arroy was not "human" by Malkioni standards. Joerg queries: >An angelic individual, then? And didn't Arkat and Dormal fully >attain divinity es per deity? I think that Arkat's and Dormal's humanity is not in question (well, maybe Arkat's, seeing as he's a troll and all). I view them as glorified Hero cults, and I expect the Malkioni do, too. There's folks alive who _met_ Dormal. I feel that any Malkioni who attempt to include CA as a saint are considered heretics. I'm not sure that saint-style worship would even work for her, though I'm sure they could organize some sort of hybrid Invisible God service and get her Rune magic (just as a shaman could contact her and get magic without really becoming an initiate or priest). In any case, I think her magic would come as Rune spells. In speaking of the destruction of bronze in Glorantha: >The geological upheavals have accelerated geology and geochemistry >in Glorantha to such an extent, especially because of >the magic >around, that the short period of time is evened out, IMO. Yeah, but the period is SO much shorter (only 1600 years) that, IF YOU WANT, you can claim it hasn't had too much effect. Also, a lot of the Godtime deaths happened after the geological upheavals, though of course plenty happened before. Nick asks: >I wonder if your interest in standardising religions and societies >across the world is in some way connected to the speed with which >you move through it? Religions, yes (since otherwise it's hard for PCs to remain good members of their faiths). Societies, no. In fact, the reason I like travel in my campaigns is because the various societies I display are weird & fascinating to the players. I don't want to "standardize" societies, Nick, I want to make them "user-friendly", so that my players can interact with the damn societies and get to see just how alien they are, and enjoy the weird nuances and tidbits. If I'm not allowed to go to Kralorela, or talk out loud to a Malkioni, or if I've got to stay in the foreigners' section of town, this certainly doesn't make my world more interesting and quirky. >Given that Kolat appears to be worshipped shamanically, not >theistically, that'd be an unlikely occurrence. And if such did >exist, determining which Age it was built in would require rather a >lot of archeological expertise on the part of the characters In the first place, what if the problem was that Greg had decided that Kolat has a big organized theistic cult, and your First Age site was a shaman holy place? Or vice-versa. Plus, determining the Age of a site isn't so tough. If it's known to date from the Gbaji Wars (and has Gbaji-war era baddies), that places it pretty obviously for the PCs. --------------------- From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller) Subject: Lewis Jardine's GL Toolkit Message-ID: <01HCRDPUV1W28WWNKP@wharton.upenn.edu> Date: 25 May 94 10:01:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4170 That isn't the God Learner's Toolkit. That's the Heroquester's Toolkit. While Lewis states the truths somewhat more baldly and mechanistically than a high priest would, I believe that this approach is true inasmuch as it *works* in Glorantha. Of course the gods do have existences external to the way they are worshipped. They aren't the slaves of their worshippers. Read KULT. It has the right idea. IMO -- Loren --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Schtuph. Message-ID: <9405251945.AA21103@barren.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 25 May 94 19:45:55 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4171 MOB: > One of the most popular Aussie eumphemisms for vomiting is "to Chunder", > though my favourite is "technicolour yawn"! Thus proving the oxymoronic quality of the phrase "Aussie euphemism". On a mostly unrelated note, Sam and Lauren have gotta stop posting things which cause any cheese sandwiches I'm consuming to go down the wrong way. "Asphixiation due to inhalation of red Leicester whilst convulsed with rision at mailing list" would look very bad on the death certificate. I'll gloss lightly over my "starring" role in Lauren's piece... posts: Carlson, Pam; > I like to add small role-playing details, to make the NPC's seem more real. > Lately I've been wondering if there are any standard forms of respectful > address commonly used, particularly within the major cults. How does one > address an Ernalda acolyte? ("Mother"? "Sister"?) A Storm Bull kahn? > ("Warrior"? "Big Brother"?) How about a Humakti, a (Y)Elmalian, Orlanthi, > or a Lunar official? Well, it kinda depends on who you are, no? Culture, familiarity, rank, etc. However, "Fever-brained Gbaji-riddling son of a she-broo" is a tried and tested standby for Lunars of all shapes, sizes, and illuminations. > Also, one of my PC's is a Storm Bull worshipper exiled from Prax. [...] > He wants to join the Templars outside of Hazard Fort [...] > I'm not sure how the Templars would feel about a part-time member. I'd think most of the Templars _are_ part-time, unless their lack of a Real Life is so terminal they have nothing better to do. > Once the Templars found out that this new guy had actually been to the > Block, they decided he was at least an acceptable candidate. Peacock told > him that he would have to undergo an initiation into the Templars.... I'm > planning something like an fraternity hazing, Urox style. Any ideas? #include "whole_initiation_debate"; Eh, but no, seriously: I'd try to ad lib something which is a compromise between a "real" initiation (that is, of a total non-worshipper), and the kind of purely social induction an Uroxi from the next temple along the road would receive. In particular, if there is a myth, rite, ceremony etc, which is stressed by the Templars, but is unknown or rare in Prax, they'd probably want to have him enact/be tested by that in particular, to demonstrate he really is "one of us", and not just some fake, weenified, heterodox alleged Uroxi. > Off to plan for that delicate Dorastor balance between Challenge and Certain > Death - Balance? Lunar sophistry. Cream the suckers. }B-] Alex the unbalanced,