Bell Digest v940526p6

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 26 May 1994, part 6
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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: Misc Religion stuff
Message-ID: <940521225649246@thuemmel.com>
Date: 25 May 94 05:44:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4180

S.Phillips in X-RQ-ID: 4113
S>Cullen O'Neill: (Godlearner in disguise)

What disguise?  I admit it openly! >Yes acknowledging O.R. is a requirment to be accepted but being
C>>an initiate is another level altogether.
S>
S>Nope. I don't agree with this. Many people are "accepted" who hold
S>other views.  Nobody could be initiated without accepting it. Not in
S>my Sartar, anyway.

??, I don't understand your comment here.  What I was saying was in
order to be accepted as kin in an Orlanthi clan, as a bare minimun you
must accept Orlanth as king of the gods, but that you are not required
to be initiates of Orlanth.  NOT that you can be an initiate without
accepting Orlanth as King!

S>The Esrolian Ernaldan is not kin so she is a weirdo. She probably
S>thinks that Ernalda is the king of gods and Orlanth is her wife. Now
S>that's not on - is it? I mean, we have to respect her but we don't
S>have to agree with (or even like) her. She would be better off going
S>back to Esrolia where the men have no passion. This argument would be

Yes This is probably the attitude, but you don't burn her at the stake,
at worst you're rude...  this is precisely what I meant by tolerate.
But this doen't address the point I was making.  ie: a lay member can be
an accepted member of society.

C>>"Storm Bull and Zorak Zoran saved each other's lives in battle
C>>against chaos in the Great Darkness, thus they are blood brothers
C>>and so each gave a spell to the other as a mark of this."
S>
S>I know this, you know this, the trolls know this. They still eat
S>sartarian babies, though. Ask the troll - he won't deny it.

Yes this is the story we pull out when we HAVE to get along with the
Trolls, for whatever reason.  As for embracing a Troll, well only if he
just saved your bacon, as in the legend...  Otherwise he's just to be
tolerated (unless we can get away with blaming him for our problems and
killing him, of course!)

S>I tend to use no set rules and make them up as *my* confusion deepens.

Well my players (when I still had them) were a mix of 'I love this
storytelling stuff' and 'Let me kill something and find an artifact'
types.  I wish I had a group of players who love Glorantha, but...  ah
well!  Truth be told I haven't been able to get the gang together for a
game in almost a year.  Some are away at school, one joined the Air
Force, and one is working 56 hours a week with a coupla kids.
But I hope to get involved in whatever RQ stuff is occuring at
the University I'm transferring to in the fall... or creating some if
neccessary.

C>>Well calling this relationship Association is a bit GLish, you
C>>might prefer to say:
C>>
C>>"Orlanth and Ernalda married and thus the two of them have spells
C>>from one another.  Orlanth and Urox are kin and thus ..."
C>>
C>>But it amounts to the same thing.
S> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
S>Godlearners have been burned for less.

This doesn't address my point.  Amusing comments aside, you agree that
it amounts to the same thing, yes?

S>I tend to think of the Lay worshipper as someone who is along for the
S>party.  And I also think that this sort of unpious behaviour is seen
S>by many cults as a good way to raise funds and so most would probably
S>throw a party. Storm bull holy days are legendary all across
S>Glorantha. Even Lunars have been known to celebrate them. Did the
S>Lunar authorities aid in getting a Storm Kahn for Boldhome so the
S>people could have their party? I'm sure they would have if they
S>could. Say what you want about the Lunars - they are never ones to
S>poop a good party. It is only Sun-worshippers and other tight-arsers
S>who have a hang-up in this department.

Well, I can't see Lunars tolerating Stormbulls, much, but if they did it
would be for the parties! ;^)

Back to lay worshippers...  I still think that a fairly large percentage
of the population will be lay members.  If you downgrade initiation, you
get people suggesting that you need two levels of initiation, and that
at the first level somebody can be an initiate of n cults (where n is an
(arbitrarily large number).  This is the same thing as a lay member (to
me).

S>But he is already part of that god's family. He is in Orlanth's Staed
S>and so are all the other deities who are Orlanth's kin. Orlanth sits
S>on the throne, Ernalda at his side and all his kin around him. They
S>are drinking and laughing and having a good time..

But where does someone who's an initiate of Urox, Ernalda, Orlanth,
Barntar, Chalana Arroy and Aldrya fit into the Clan structure?  Are the
clans of gods less structured than the clans of men?

C>>NO!  Storm Bulls act like Urox!  They don't function as normal
C>>members of society.
S>
S>I totally disagree with this, too. Orlanth loves Urox and Eurmal.
S>They are both kin and as such are part of society. They may not
S>always obey Orlanth, but he tolerates them and protects them from the
S>rath of others. Yes, a Stormbuller would act like Orlanth most of the
S>time - same goes for the Eurmal. What they do differently from
S>Orlanth does not prevent them being  Orlanthi. Everyone has a job to
S>do. Why should a beserker or a fool be any less an Orlanthi than a
S>plowman or a healer? Urox sits beside Orlanth at the dinner table.
S>Eurmal makes him laugh. They are both welcome when the dinner bell
S>goes and they both attend. Urox and Eurmal are both fully functional
S>member of Orlanth's Tula.

Well, I agree that a storm bull would act like a member of Orlanthi
society, but would explain that by saying that Storm Bull acts like
Orlanth because they're brothers.  Note that I said NORMAL members of
society,,,  I feel that the Storm bulls are kin that get treated almost
like outsiders because they're soooo violent.  At most occasions they
are treated with respect...  but they are also feared...  since they
have a divine madness. Since they are kin they are tolerated, as long as
they abide by the clans rules.

Cullen

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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: Effective Initiates
Message-ID: <940521225652247@thuemmel.com>
Date: 25 May 94 10:53:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4181

Devin Cutler in X-RQ-ID: 4112
D>Why do I need to be creative about the rules? Why do I need to be
D>creative about cults even? I prefer to concentrate my creativity on
D>scenarios and the role-playing session.

You don't.  But if other people wish to be, are you saying that they
should take it somewhere else?

My basic feeling for this 'scholars vs. gamers' argument is that it is
the result of the anger many feel over Greg making changes to the game
world.  It isn't fair to direct this vituperation at people who are
merely reacting to the cause of your anger.

Certainly the reason there is more 'scholarly' discussion is because
more people who are into this sort of thing are posting.  I for one
welcome any posts that contibute a new idea...   I pesonally post what
I'm thinking, and what I'm thinking is often prompted by what I see in
the Daily.  If people want more posts on 'scenarios and the
role-playing' then they should post them.  This is not a closely
moderated group... and if people want to change the focus they should
post the types of messages they want to see.  Then other people will
respond and if the majority of people want more gaming then the list
will move in that direction.

----------------------
Boris in X-RQ-ID: 4116
B>This, I think, is my basic problem with your argument.  It seems to me
B>that, from a cosmological viewpoint, there is less difference between
B>initiation to three gods (or seven) and initiation to twenty (or even
B>1000) than there is between initiation to only one god and initiation
B>to three.  If you can connect to more than one god with a single
B>initiation, then the exact number more than one is a minor point.  And
B>it has been shown on Glorantha that you *can* connect to more than one
B>deity with a single initiation.  So, q.e.d. pantheon initiation (given
B>my stated assumption) is possible in a Gloranthan millieu.

The examples cited are not good ones.

 The Cult of the Bloody Tusk isn't worshipping three 'gods' in any case,
whatever its synthetic origins. One god, one hero, and one darkness
spirit are listed in the write-up.

The Lunar cults cannot be used to generalize for more 'normal' cults
(generalizing is dangerous anyway, Devin's calling out the Inquisitors
as we speak....).  'Normal' cults don't use sorcery either are we going
to use the Red Goddess write-up to change this.  Lunars break rules for
the #@)) of it anyway... surely their 'freedom' from the 'normal' form
can't be used to alter the 'normal' form... of course 'normal' is only a
'useful GL construct' but lets not drop these altogether until Greg
makes us.

B>This still leaves the secondary question to address, that is, why is
B>it desired?  I can speak only for myself, but the reason I first
B>brought up this can of wyrms was this.  Given what I have read, it
B>seems that there are two basic ways of participating in worship in
B>Glorantha.  One type is very similar to what worshippers appear to do
B>on Earth; go through some sort of ritual, chanting, singing,
B>gesturing, etc. at all the right parts, and fervently (or not)
B>offering your prayers to a transcendant deity.  The other type is
B>familiar (perhaps) only to mystics on Earth; one is actually
B>transported by the ritual to take part in mythic actions of a very
B>immanent deity.  These are what we respectively call lay worship and
B>initiate worship.

B>By all accounts, lay worshippers only see and hear the rituals, but do
B>not percieve or take part in the magical aspects of the ceremony
B>(though they do perhaps see that magical events are occuring).
B>However, initiates of associate religions *do* take part in the
B>magical part of the worship, filling the roles of their deity in the
B>reenacted myth.  Thus, my answer to Cullen O'Neill's question in
B>X-RQ-ID: 4109 ("So those who have dedicated their lives to Orlanth
B>worship Ernalda better than the most dedicated laywoman?") is an
B>unequivocal *yes*!  Unless and until the Ernaldan initiates she will
B>only "see through a glass darkly"; the Orlanthi already sees "face to
B>face", albeit from a different perspective.

Ok, this is a convincing argument.  I give on the issue of
this...  but if a peson is effective as a worshipper when they're
an initiate of a friendly diety, then why is there a need for
pantheon initiation?  Like you said from a guest initiate sees the
ritual from a different perspective!  That of his diety.

B>In the current rules, there are *only* two states of initiation, lay
B>and initiate (lumping all the acolytes/priests/lords in with initiates
B>for this discussion).  This begs the question, what is the iniatory
B>status *relative to Ernalda* of all of the Orlanthi, Uroxi, etc.
B>taking part in an Ernaldan High Holy Day service.  They are not
B>initiated to Ernalda, neither are they just lay members, as they
B>participate much more fully.  Yes, they are associates, but unless we
B>call "associate" a third initiatory state, this is just handwaving.
B>And if we *do* make associate another state of initiation, well then
B>fine, I'll also call this a low initiate and I am satisfied.  And if
B>Alex (or anyone) asks me to what are they initiated that is associated
B>with all the rest, well, I have shown above that one may initiate to
B>many deities with a single initiation; one initiates to the "gods of
B>my ancestors", i.e. the clan's gods.  And if that is still
B>unsatisfactory, they I suppose the clan wyter will do.  It would be
B>associated to all of the other deities worshipped by the clan, n'est
B>pas?

When one is initiated to a diety one becomes dedicated to that diety's
viewpoint, and begins trying to become like that diety to the extent
possible.  In some way the Initiation must be at base a transformative
experience (otherwise why the big change in afterlife/Divine magic?).
This gets lost with pantheon initiation.  The hero ceases trying to
become like his/her god(dess) and becomes, well... kinda generic.  I
think this is way to high a price to pay.  I think that initiates of one
god therefor serve to help the Ernalda service by being representatives
of their gods at the holy day services (which might be put on by the
whole community, but each initiate is participating as a representative
of his god).  Does this work for you?

B>Now, to bring this, so to speak, back to earth, and the real reason
B>*why* I want to do this, is that it enables me to GM better.  I have
B>the refugee survivors of a clan that has just arrived in the Rubble
B>from Sartar; there are a number of different gods that this clan
B>worships, but with over half the clan dead (that's why they're
B>refugees), they are too few to provide any magic to my PCs unless most
B>of the clan members take part in most of the worship services.
B>Thinking about this, it makes sense for most clans, and so that's why
B>I speculated on the general case.  And now, we (i.e. my players and
B>myself) can have fun roleplaying the different PCs & NPCs taking part
B>in each other's worship, which opens up many, many roleplaying
B>possibilities.

Well... I suppose it does help in the way you speak.  But couldn't you
have just as rich experiences with everybody participating in all the
rituals as lay members/guest initiates and when there is a lack of a
_____(fill in blank) worshipper the community must seek out a priestess
(or initiate any way) to fill in that role at the ritual to make the
land fertile or whatever.  I see alot of interaction between the cults
without any need for multiple initiation.

B>Anyway, that's my view of my Personal Glorantha Heroquest.

Thanks, it was very thought provoking and changed my mind on at least
one issue.

-----------------------
Martin in X-RQ-ID: 4121
M> Cullen O'Neill:
M>     LBQ: Leg Before Quicket?  Lyndon Baines Quonset?  Litterarum
M>Baccalaureus something-beginning-with-Q?

Well seriously... I couldn't figure out what it meant.  I really
mean it, no humour involved.

Cullen

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From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: Cloud Call; afterlives; etc.
Message-ID: <9405252305.tn494186@aol.com>
Date: 26 May 94 03:05:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4182


Re: Cloud Call
Joerg says: 
"Doesn't impress me. On a clear day I'd need 53 points of divine
magic to cast one Thunderbolt. 53 Lightnings instead would
incinerate anything, even a true dragon... "

Obviously, the RQ 3 description is a gaming convention which
doesn't mesh well with any reasonable view of Glorantha.  In the
RQ:AiG rules, at least when I was part of the Gang of Four (tm),
1% was the minimum effect, what you'd get from the spell if
you're a just-ordained acolyte of indifferent virtue standing in
the middle of Genert's Waste in the dry season.  (And this was
before the Sendings of Stephen Martin confirmed this as an
example of The Truth.)

     And I don't believe 53d6 damage will do more than tickle a
true dragon.

Re: Solace
Joerg says: 
"Actually I am not quite sure that the mainstream Malkioni "earn"
Solace.  What do the experts think?"

I don't claim to be an expert in this, but I don't think the
Malkioni do earn it.  The whole afterlife business is a minor
obsession of mine, so I'll burden you with my spin:

Option 1 (Presbyterian; Muslim; official Lutheran and Roman
Catholic): getting to the right afterlife is a matter of divine
grace, and nothing a human can do can earn this grace. 
Corollary: you must follow God's law because he tells you to.  

     1a (Roman Catholic): if you die after committing a mortal
     sin and before getting forgiven through confession, you will
     go to hell anyway.  Dying with the correct attitude is big.

     1b (Presbyterian, Muslim): some people are condemned to
     hell, too, and there's nothing they can do about it.

     1c (Presbyterian): you can forfeit your place in heaven
     through committing too many sins, and there's no forgiveness
     until it's too late to mend your ways.

Option 2 (popular; official with some Protestants): getting to
the right afterlife is the reward for following God's
commandments.  Going to hell is the punishment for committing too
many sins.

     Now where any Gloranthans fit in, I don't claim to know. 
Most probably don't worry overly about it, preferring to
concentrate on the here and now.  As they should, IMHO.

Re: trading
     I've uploaded part 1 of my work on Gloranthan gems to the
AOL roleplaying library, will upload the rest soon, and will send
the same to the soda.berkeley crew if they're interested.  It
gives costs, sizes, who likes them, where they come from, etc.

Peter Whitelaw beefs thusly: "Someone else asked about the
Gagarthi (Chris someone) did he get any answers? Not one.  I
asked if anyone wanted me to post a load of non-Gloranthan
material for your perusal, delectation, comment or even
dismissal.  But one lonely reply."
     First of all, the Gagarth cult inquiry was responded to, by
me.  It had recently been posted to the Daily by the author,
Sandy, so it didn't get posted again.
     I'd be willing to read (or at least scroll through) non-
Gloranthan material if it's top notch.  Otherwise, it should be
distributed through private email.  I had good response when I
offered to email my Hykim cults privately; maybe you will, too.

Close friend of Little Elvis asks: is there a crafter deity?
     Yes, Iphigios is the Pelorian craft deity, who later became
allied to Hwarin Dalthippa, the Conquering Daughter.  Tell 'em
about Imtherpak, Harald.
     Gustbran is the closest to a crafter in the Orlanth
pantheon.  
     In most parts of Glorantha, people make most of their own
goods, or get them from their family members.  The Copper Age ice
man from Tyrol had repaired his own clothes crudely, but he might
have just done that hurriedly and have been the one who sewed
them originally, or else he could have had someone in his family
do the work.  (We could argue about this endlessly, too, I
suppose; scholars in the field certainly will.)

--Martin



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From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: we can be heroes ...
Message-ID: 
Date: 26 May 94 06:54:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4183

Greg Fried here.

Dear RunePests!
Today I printed up the final version of my dissertation (420+ pages!); it is
now being copied for submission to the appropriate authorities tomorrow.  Two
weeks ago, I gave my doctoral lecture, and I must have rolled a 01 Orate,
because it went swimmingly.  I hope I can scam to stay linked to the e-world
after I graduate, but for the record, lemme say thanks to all of you here on
the Daily who've kept me amused and distracted for the better part of a year
of my toil. I must owe SOMEONE an aweful load of clacks for improving my
Gloranthan Lore by a couple of deciles.  So, since he hasn't been thanked for
a while -- Henk, allow me to thank you for providing us all with this forum!

On to other matters.

There's been a lot of discussion of the scholar-player rift.  Let me make my
contribution to the player side by making available once again my adventure
scenario, "Atek's Ghost", to anyone who wants it.  Just write me privately at
f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu.  It is set in a psuedo-Gloranthan campaign -- which
is to say that it takes place in no region established in current published
material, but could be adapted (most readily to the East Isles).

-------------

Nick:
Liked your thoughts on Stygian Platonism a week or so ago.  But allow me to
quibble with the idea of reversing the Platonic allegory of the cave.  

Plato is famous for his theory of "forms" -- the Greek words he uses are
*idea* (---> our "idea") and *eidos* (as in "idol"). The theory of forms is
based on the imagery of seeing and light (as in the cave-dweller's emergence
into the light of the sun). Only because of light can we see things; only
because of light do forms take shape and become accessible and intellible to
us -- even shadows owe their (modest) intelligibility to the light.

Now, how exactly do we 'reverse' this, using a descent into darkness as the
'ideal'?  Some might argue that there is a source for Darkness, just like
there is a source for Light -- a kind of anti-Sun -- and that such Darkness
'illumines' Hell for Trolls just as the Sun illumes the surface world.

But doesn't this just turn darkness into another form of light, one which we
just CALL Darkness?  Light and Darkness become FUNCTIONALLY equivalent for
their respective creatures. 

I seem to remember that at one time, trolls didn't even have eyes.  Of
course, they rely on Darksense instead -- whose sonar component works a lot
like vision in presenting forms to the 'viewer'. But it seems to me
that Darkness cannot just provide an 'opposite' form of illumination
to Light but must somehow point to a way of understanding utterly
alien to (if not also hostile to) all knds of cognition based on
"seeing", "ideas" and "form". I'd have to think a lot about what that
would be!

----------

A question for anyone:

In my camapign, the PCs were forced into a HeroQuest as the ritual
opponents of a troll Himile priest.  This priest sought to advance the
cause of a glacier god, Hrelk, against a local volcano god. The PCs
defeated the troll priest in the HeroQuest. As a result, the actual
glacier has been forced a considerable distance back from its previous
position, and the human inhabitants of the region (call them
Bathurians) won a victory over the trolls.  Needless to say, the PCs
have been treated like heroes.  Now they will leave the area, but the
Bathurians have set up a shrine near the base of the glacier to mark
the victory. They have asked each PC to leave something for the people
to remember them and their victory by. 

Now, my question is this: if the local people actually worship at this
shrine, what benefit might the PCs derive?  I don't want them to get
swelled heads, but if I could give them some modest but interesting
benefit, in exchange for something on their part, I would entertain
the notion.  Thoughts?

-- GF out.

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