From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 28 May 1994, part 4 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: DevinC@aol.com Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 27 May 1994, part 1 Message-ID: <9405271618.tn557201@aol.com> Date: 27 May 94 20:18:19 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4222 Devin Cutler here: Gary writes, after his great piece on the Estali Church: "Whew... That's it for now. Comments? Flames? Thunderous accusations?Thanks for reading. Kampai! Gary (Gary Newton / Isaac@twics.com)" Just one question. I wonder why Magasta is not seen as an Angel of God? Why is Aldrya revered (in an estranged sort of way), as is Kyger LItor, but Magasta is not? On the one hand, Magasta has friendly relations with the cult of Dormal (or at least that's what Strangers in Prax implies), but on the other hand, Magasta IS the god of Sea Monsters, and we all know how the West feels about Krjalki.... Regards, Devin Cutler devinc@aol.com --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Nick waffling on... Message-ID: <940527204938_100270.337_BHL90-2@CompuServe.COM> Date: 27 May 94 20:49:38 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4223 _______________ Alistair asked: > What published materials would people recommend for starting off a new > campaign for new players? I am particularly interested in the latest > stuff out for RQ3, e.g. Sun County, River Of Cradles, Dorastor etc. but > any comments about RQ2 materials are ok too. > What materials would be best for more experienced players? Nice to hear from you again! If I were starting from scratch using published materials, I think I'd go for Sun County and Shadows on the Borderlands. Run "Gaumata's Vision" from SotB first: it's the most Gloranthan scenario I know, and very good for beginners IMHO. If the players enjoy that, Sun County includes more local scenarios (inc. the excellent "Melisande's Hand"). If playing in a mono- cultural region bores you, River of Cradles has cult writeups and world background for the whole Zola Fel valley: it nicely complements the Sun County setting. The same for "more experienced players": novice role-players or Gloranthans will learn a lot from the package discussed, while those with experience in either will be able to contribute a lot, too. As for RQ2/RQ3, there's not that many problems in "trading up" (IMHO), and you may find it easier to run the scenarios under the rules they were written for. But if you feel you need familiarity with the rules to teach the newbies, use whatever you're at home with! __________ Pam asked: > How would an Orlanthi clan chief deal with a young man from his clan who > had been caught robbing strangers? Fines? Banishment? Confinement? Lop > off body parts? Make him do extra work? Strangers, eh? If they're too weak to cause trouble, he'd have a good laugh and expect to receive a cut of the proceeds. If a war looks likely as a result, he'd order the thief to make amends and sort things out somehow -- Orlanthi responsibility rearing its ugly head again. In the thief's shoes, I'd either run for it (effectively banishing myself) or return the property and try to laugh it off (somehow). I doubt any of the penalties you list other than "extra work" would be appropriate in Orlanthi society for that offence. Theft from kin might meet with banishment. Theft from the chief himself could make him angry enough to do something rash, like maim or kill the thief, but he'd regret it later (when the invoice for the blood-price landed in his tula). Orlanthi hang traitors (out of touch with the Earth, their Wind strangled within them, their bodies left to the tender mercy of the elements), and IMHO some have any defeated rivals who are too dangerous to leave alive beheaded (Humaaaakt!). _____________ Martin wrote: > The reason you can tell a 4th century ruin from a 16th century one is > that you are the happy recipient of centuries of scholarship in arche- > ology. Your adventurers don't have this advantage, and neither does > anyone else in their society, if it is at all comparable to premodern > societies on earth. Remember Shakespeare and his clocks striking in > ancient Rome. I predict that your qualification, "if it is at all comparable", will be attacked. But I'm not the man to do it, as I agree with everything you've just said. Now, I hope I'm not becoming a repetitive old fart, but have I mentioned yet that Malkioni cultures and fashions and so on only *seem* to have been stuck in a mediaeval time warp since the Dawning because modern Malkioni heroquesting knights and wizards *want* to see knights and wizards who act like them in the ancient past? Just as Real World mediaeval authors wrote about the great knights who fought their battles in the Bible, the Tale of Troy, the various Matters of Greece, Rome, Britain, etc. In Gloranthan terms, King Arthur used to appear as an otherworldly Celtic warlord to Celtic heroquesters; now he also appears as a chivalric king to knightly heroquesters. Fixed history and evolving mythology end up marching out of step, as David Dunham perceptively noted re: the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm. I think this is a Good Thing, though I already know others differ. It's obvious how it links to my beliefs about subjective heroquesting. _____________ Robert wrote: > The melding of the cults together such as in the Lightbringers' Ring > would provide much more strength through different gods coming together > and the use of different powers. All this indicates, to players of > Runequest, that they can continue to be together as they advance in > their relgions. It is not uncommon to have a group of high-level > characters. I agree. The other thing we notice is that high-level characters become in some ways like avatars of their god. And there are two perfect examples of this, both in Troll Gods and both involving Arkat. When Kwaratch Kang tried to cause trouble, Arkat apparently broke himself into separate individuals to overcome him (The Birth of Arkat Kingtroll): : And then there were four or five Arkats all who seized upon the limbs : of Kwaratch Kang faster than I could tell. They weren't there, then they : were with the rune lord held helpless and Arkat made some swift move, : ignoring the terrible magics which were cast at him, and with his bare : hand he killed Kwaratch Kang. And Arkat's companions were indistinguishable from him (cf. Black Arkat in the Troll Cults book; can't find my copy just now, so no quote). Now, at RQCon (Columbia), during Greg's HeroQuest seminar, someone asked if it would be possible for a party of heroquesters all of whom worshipped the same god to heroquest as aspects of that deity: one being Orlanth's sword skill, another his rhetorical ability, and so on and so forth. Greg said it was possible and likely that this kind of thing would happen. I mumbled (*) a question along the lines of: "Would this be something like the way Arkat walks around, and there's just one of him, but sometimes he has a load of companions who all look like him and act the same way as he does, and can't easily be told apart from Arkat, and sometimes he can split himself up into loads of different people, who all do what he wants?" And Greg said that my question had answered itself. +1% Illumination. (* -- I was mumbling it because it was mere moments before my own seminar started, the first time I'd ever done one for an unfamiliar audience; I had no real idea of how it would work, and Greg's talk was a *very* hard act to follow. Sorry it didn't come out well enough to transcribe on any tapes; I hope this late exposition helps Peter Michaels and/or David Cheng put the book together). Anyoldhow, it struck me at the time (and only stage-fright prevented me saying it) that this was like the known Gloranthan phenomenon of Orlanths Thunderous, Adventurous, Lightbringer and Rex being treated as separate deities, perhaps even as rivals (WF#13, p.7): : It is common for people to speak of three or four well-known forms of : Orlanth as if they were comparing different gods. In some cases they are : treated as different gods with competing priesthoods, religious prejudice : and system snobbery. Well, I thought I should bring it up, now folk are claiming Orlanth speaks with one voice the whole world over. In the light of this quotation, it is still be possible for this to be so: if the gods have split personalities. Likewise, on the god Yelm, Greg wrote: : The first [Yelmic society considered] is the primitive nomad culture : of the horse barbarians and the second is the splendid empire of Dara : Happa... It is interesting to note that these two cultures were : traditional enemies and spent centuries in bloody conflict. Documents : relating to this schism in the Universal Empire of the Sun are interest- : ing to read. First Age tales make a big deal about the Sons of the Sun : who quarreled and helped bring about the Darkness. Early Middle Period : documents delve into philosophy and semantics, while later ones flatly : state that the nomads were heretics and were actually worshipping a : false god (often identified as Gbaji). Such documents are all of Dara : Happan origin, obviously. Maybe Divination doesn't provide such clear-cut answers, after all... ___________ Martin Crim, High King of Dragon Pass, Holay, Vanch, Saird, Kethaela etc. posts a heartfelt plea: > Does anybody else on the list want to read anything more about this > initiation argument (or, for that matter, the related threads)? I'd > like to see the Aeolian church write-up, but debating it before seeing > it seems a tad ... something. Anyway, subtle hints from several > quarters having failed, I join in the plea for a cease-fire. Seconded. I helped Joerg develop his ideas; I think many of them are good. I've visited Aeolian Heortland in David Hall's campaign, and seen Bishops and Storm Voices side by side in the king's stone hall. I look forward to seeing the developed Aeolian write-up in a Digest, when Henk sends it out. But the current, long-running Joerg/Alex thread has me lost and bewildered. Nobody has been able to join in with anything like the fervour of the two originators; tangential contributions are ignored, in favour of the point/ counterpoint between the RuneQuest Daily's two tallest contributors. Why not take it off the Daily, into private email, for a week or so. Post whatever distilled wisdom you can gather together at the end of that time. Hey: you'll be able to post and reply to each other _several_times_a_day_! This could be the start of a beautiful relationship... ==== Nick (only 6'2", but still able to post at length when I need to!) ==== --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Hurrah! The Daily's Back! Message-ID: <940527205045_100270.337_BHL90-3@CompuServe.COM> Date: 27 May 94 20:50:45 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4224 _____________ Joerg writes: > Orlanth, Yelm, Magasta, Pamalt, Lodril, Mother Earth and the Red Goddess > are the only deities I would place above all other deities. Looks like you have an elemental fixation, to me. Three obvious questions: (1) Why Lodril? (2) Where's Uleria? (3) What about the Powers? The 'orthodox' list of greater gods (all of the 'current Rune-owners') has nouns, verbs and adjectives (elements, powers and forms, call them what you will). If the world were 'static', making elementals more 'important' than gods of power and form would make some sense. As it is, your categorisation seems to imply a harmonious ordering of Glorantha with no change/develop- ment/conflict conducted along other than elemental lines. A bit too simple for me to accept. (Especially coming from a self-confessed God Learner!). ___________________ Broo Eunuch Humakti An evil thought struck me on the train today: Are Ralzakark's castrated Humakti broos getting the idea of Humakti eunuchs from some far-off variant of the Humakt cult, and applying it to their own culture? Where in Glorantha would Humakti eunuchs come from? (Maybe this is something I didn't know about Carmania, until today; I'd interpreted their "Maran Gor worship" differently...). ____________ Devin wrote: > The pre-Renaissance persons may have believed their God was active, but > they never saw such activity. Physical proof is a wonderful motivater. The historical evidence is against you, here. For some reason, people these days only pay attention to the parts of old books they find "credible", and dump the rest. So, although I could find you countless examples of pre- Renaissance persons _absolutely_certain_ they had witnessed miracles, you (and many others) would dismiss these out of hand as fiction, fantasy, mass hypnosis. (As do I). But if you're living in a culture where it is accepted that miracles happen, and magic works, and Gods are active and intervene in the world, you'll act a certain way. We know from the Real World what such cultures look like. Modern historians can hypothesise that these cultures were full of hypocrites and didn't believe a word of what they professed, but proof is lacking. Certainly, some ancient, mediaeval and modern people were willing to die for their beliefs. Looks pretty sincere to me. We know too that, presented with the unambiguous Word of God, people will interpret it in different ways. We know that there is no unified Truth in Glorantha any more. So why should we design an inhuman, bland and unentertaining synthetic world when there are so many inspiring examples, and Gloranthan excuses, for mixing 'chrome' or 'dirt' into the functioning magical ecology of Glorantha? The phrase "SimGlorantha" springs to mind. It's not what I want. Though it would be interesting to see one working... Anyway, all HeroQuesting is subjective: I'd have thought everyone knew that by now... (but see below). > In addition, even in pre-Renaissance times their were many, especially > amongst the learned or the nobility or the well-to-do, who, while paying > lip service to belief in a God or gods, did not truly believe in such. > Certainly, the Romans were a good example of this. Some Romans used their religion pragmatically. The evidence suggests there are Gloranthans who do the same. Most Roman authors who disdained the old belief systems did so because they had adopted new and more sophisticated philosophies: rather more like an Orlanthi becoming Illuminated, or joining a Malkioni Church, or whatever. Pure atheism is rarer. Why, I wonder, do the Gloranthan gods have spirits of reprisal? > I do not gainsay Nick's gaming contributions. I thought his scenario in > TOTRM 11 (I hope I got the issue # right) was great! Not mine, alas. But thanks, anyway! _______________________ Objective HeroQuesting? Sandy wrote: > Every worship service IS a heroquest, but this tends to unify the cult, > not divide it. Most heroquesting does not change the nature of reality, > but rather confirms it. Only creative heroquesting as was done by Arkat > and the God Learners alters Things As They Are. I prefer to believe that HeroQuesting is a subjective experience in which the quester usually encounters those otherworldly entities he expects to meet. Traditional heroquesters work in this way, too: identifying a known myth that parallels the current situation (e.g: Sheng Seleris in a Lunar Hell is like Yelm in the Underworld), and taking the appropriate remedial/ ritual actions. ("These conversions to Malkionism are like a spiritual drought in our land: I shall do battle with this new Daga, and overcome him!"). And the kind of ambushes that can be sprung are self-generated (as when Kallyr Starbrow, who would presumably denounce the Lunars as Devil- worshippers, meets Lunar heroquesters rather than the 'safe' wicker Wakboth she expects to defeat on her LBQ): you allow others into your myth by casting them as ritual foes, but then you have to put up with whatever they can do to you. (Our Puissant Red Goddess Herself did this to Orlanth: he contested against Her as he had done against Yelm, not realising that She was more subtle and skilled by far. Praise Be! She triumphed where the Old Sun was overthrown!) I think creative heroquesters discover new and plausible connections in Gloranthan mythology, which they teach their followers, who, believing, reinforce them. That's the Arkati model. An alternative method used by the God Learners (and perhaps by Harrek the Berserk) is to convince yourself (and the world) that you can do *anything*, then go out there and prove it. I have a Harrek-theory, too. We know he was asleep for a century or so. We know heroquesting is a dreamlike state. Is it not possible that Harrek was passively exploring the Hero Plane for a century -- that the enchantment of the Ban hit him at just the right moment in his sleep-state? Seems the most subtle and acceptable explanation for his unique prowess as an unconscious heroquester (i.e: not backed by any particular mythos, cult or ideology, as far as we know). He would intuitively know what to do while heroquesting, while remaining intellectually incapable of explaining his knowledge. ___________ Paul wrote: > I view the Malkioni religions as having more kinship with the various > Hellenistic philosphies than with any Earthly religions per se. I almost agree. I think that Malkioni wizards can debate in philosophical terms, construct logical arguments that prove the existence and wishes and nature of their Deity (to their own satisfaction), can be divided into many schools of thought. But I think this activity is too abstracted from mundane concerns to be of any importance to the peasants, knights and lords of Malkioni society. It's one for the wizard-caste to indulge in amongst themselves. Philosophies are not, generally, 'popular' by their nature. The Lunar attempt to Illuminate the whole population of Glorantha is thus rendered suitably unique... On which subject: Western Saints have haloes. Illuminates have haloes. Is there some connection? > I _think_ Saints are those who have broken down the barriers and > operate on 'both sides' of reality (in the West). They have great > power for good or ill. The Immanent IG sects would think that they > have achieved partial union with the Godhead while still living. I like this theory of Paul's a lot, and the supporting arguments that go with it. Why not post them here? > Anyway, I have a LOT of stuff on this subject, and I don't think everyone > would be interested. Perhaps a Malkion mailing list would be appropriate > for the real fanatics? We don't want to annoy people with excessive > 'scholarly' discussions in a public forum, so perhaps we should retreat > to the catacombs of email. My opinion is mixed. (i) Everyone "ought" to be interested. Do it in public. I've always been against the idea of splitting the Daily formally. (And, as some of you know, receptive to private email dialogues sparked off by Daily comments). (ii) David, Kevin and I are brim-full of the ideas that went into How the West was One, and I don't think I should let myself be lured into public speculations about Malkionism until after the Con. I would hate to miss out on the dialogue, but won't have much to contribute to it now. ==== Nick ==== THERE SHOULD BE MORE CATS IN GLORANTHA! --------------------- From: WALLMAN@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (Close friend of Little Elvis) Subject: TRUE DRAGONS? Message-ID: <01HCU9DAF8HE00121C@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU> Date: 27 May 94 11:27:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4225 Sandy mentions: > My players saw a real dragon once -- the black dragon up by > Cragspider's. 'Twas asleep at the time. On the back of the pink Gloranthan Player (?) Book is a picture of a village dwarfed by a dragon's head. I heard the name of the village somehwere, but I do not remember it. My question is what kind of village is this? Do all kinds of people live next to dragon's like that? The books all say true dragons sit around sleeping, but they seem to almost intentionally leave out any specific consequences of this. Kind of like, "And here is where a dragon the size of a mountain sits. And over here..." If kids grow up in that village, I would imagine they play a game called "Poke the Dragon with a Stick" because kids are notoriously stupid (apologies to any former or current kids). I cannot imagine there NOT being a cult dedicated to a thing laying a 100 m away with one foot in the infinity. Seers would probably prophesy based on its breathing patterns and digestion noises. Etc. Etc. Etc. Ed Praxians do it Wallman@vax2.winona.msus.edu on their Altecameli