From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 31 May 1994, part 5
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From: isaac@twics.com
Subject: Ralios Replies...
Message-ID: <0097F2BA.BD133320.583@tanuki.twics.com>
Date: 29 May 94 11:35:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4252
Hi everyone, greetings from the mysterious orient...
*Thought Jonas Schiott's East Wilds history was just great - it was especially
refreshing to see it all from an Orlanthi point of view rather than the
Safelstran one I'd been working with.
One thing I'd particularly like to know concerns people's views on the Dawn
Age Dangans. Jonas seems to view them as a kind of Orlanthi tribal
confederacy, as far as I can see. Apart from the stuff on Hrelar Amali and
King Dan in the Genertela Book of GCHW, the only other information I have on
these guys is in the "New Fens of Ralios" write-up by Ken Rolston in Different
Worlds 15, wayyyy back in '81. If anyone wants this info in a capsule form, I
can do a summary and post it here or e-mail it. Let me know. In any case,
amongst other things, it claims that "the New Fens were formed when the canals
of the Dangan Empire fell into ruin and waters spread over the lands." Which
would seem to make the New Fens considerably older than the fall of Slontos...
if, of course, one takes Ken Rolston's (from Marc Wilner...) views as gospel..
What do you think, Jonas? (and everyone else ) Were these guys up to
digging canals and building empires in the First Age? And who actually were
they? Seshnelans? Orlanthi? Hsunchen, even? Does anyone have any other
information about them? DW15 mentioned the ruined cities in the New Fens would
be worth looting, so they must have had something about them...
Also, if I may :-) , two other related questions: Hrelar Amali and Handra.
Does anyone know anything about Hrelar Amali other than what is written in
GCHW and the Jonstown Compendium? And Handra: Ken Rolston's article in DW15
mentions the City of Seven Isles at the mouth of the Nochain (sic) river; in
my ignorance, I've assumed this to be Handra. Can anyone confirm or deny that?
Also, does anyone have any thoughts about the relationship between Ralios and
Handra throughout the Ages?
Once again, thanks very much for all the hard work, Jonas. I, for one, really
enjoyed it! Now for the second and third ages... :-)
* Cullen O'Neill on Malkioni Virtues:
>wizard = loyal, powerful, modest, etc
>or were you thinking even more different than this?)
Both, really. Firstly, the personality traits work great as a way of
differentiating between "ideal characters" by Caste. I view this principally
as a game mechanic, and a vague pointer towards Malkioni "common sense
behaviour". I also envisage something a little more extreme, Virtue in the
non-game mechanic sense. Thus, for example, the idea of "sin" (if we use
it...), or at least crime, would be different for each caste. Also, physical
labour might be a virtue for a peasant as a social disgrace for a wizard, etc.
Peasants are _supposed_ to work; lords are _supposed_ to be authoritative -
and woe betide those who aren't.
On a related topic, the subject of language has come up on the daily. If
you'll allow me to draw on my own experience a little, Japanese society is a
good example of the nitty-gritty linguistic differentiations which develop as
a result of inter-caste / group interaction. (Although the society here now is
rather different from, say, that of a century or two ago...) It might well
apply to Malkioni and Malkioni-derived societies, though... Joerg's Aeolians
might be interested...
I won't go into too much detail unless people want to know more, but suffice
it to say that there are particular registers, modes of speaking, which
members of certain social "classes" _must_ use to one another if they are to
be socially correct. Thus, a lower class member must be deferential to one
above him, but may be off-hand with someone below. (The guy at the bottom
kicks the dog.) Someone (sorry...!) was asking about titles, modes of address
and stuff : in Japanese, referring to someone directly is considered brusque,
even rude, if you're not intimate with them. In extreme cases, such as when
referring to leaders, royalty, Rune Lords, and so on , the Japanese
actually use something like the passive voice. So;
to a friend : Did you finish that book?
to a superior : Has the book been finished?
And in titles, indirectness is the key - not so much Mr Priest as "the
Temple" , not so much the King as "Come From Heaven". You get the idea. I'd
better stop now before you all get that glazed look and slump over head first
at your terminals... Let me know if you want more...
* Quick reply to Devin Cutler:
> I wonder why Magasta is not seen as an Angel of God?
Erm... dunno. To be perfectly honest, Magasta doesn't really figure much in
Estali, IMHO. Whenever that happened in my Church in Estali write-up, I used
the GoG write-up as a fall back. I'm willing to be convinced, though.
OK, last bit: RQ here in Japan seems really popular. Apart from the AH
translations, there's a home-grown thingie called "RuneQuest 90s", which has
some interesting interpolations... Let me know if you want to know more...
Also, any Japanese readers of the Digest out there (there's a few, I know) who
have any original stuff in Japanese you want translating into English for
posting here, or whatever, please get in touch via e-mail or NiftyServe
(id : KHF03773).
Cheers!
Gary
(Gary Newton / Isaac@twics.com)
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: East Wilds and Ralios: Praise and quibbles
Message-ID:
Date: 30 May 94 14:03:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4253
Jonas Schiott's Ralios write-up in 4212:
Great!
While I'm not sure about there being no Orlanthi at all before the
Theyalan missionaries (think of Vingkot's lost son in Heort's Saga in
KoS, which sounded to me a lot like Israel's lost tribes), the overall
sequence of actions looks fine.
My minor problems:
Dorasta was used as a Grain Goddess (of maize, but Martin was faster
than me). I know it is official GoG policy to make Goddesses of the
Land and Grain Goddesses identical, but I stick more with the
impression I got from KoS's mention of Esra (goddess of barley) and
Pela (goddess of wheat) as grain goddesses in the land of Kero Fin (no
grain associated). What do people think about this? Sandy (after all it
was you who had a hand in this)?
I for one would prefer a Dorasta firmly confined to her country (like
an Oread) and a Grain Goddess to go wherever the seed is transported.
The Kivitti, elephant people of Karia:
Surely the description of bipedal humanoids with elephants' heads was
more a combat-induced invocation of the Elephant-spirit's (Kivitt's?)
magic and/or form? I had the impression they were just ordinary
Hsunchen, well, being massively built and having a long memory for
wrongs done to them, but at the core just another people of beast men.
(I still subscribe to the theory about the God Learner prof who earned
his seat, if not institute, for his "Unified Beast Spirit Worship"
theory. The cults as they exist today are just too neat for my taste. I
also missed a few spells deviating from the ordinary Hsunchen four
(transform and stabilize form) in the Telmor
write-up. Like Find Prey Animal.)
Could there have been mingling of unrelated Hsunchen peoples to create
new Hsunchen-like (but not really Hsunchen) nations? I had this
thought-experiment of Horse- and Lion-Hsunchen (Galanini and Basmoli)
joining into a common tribe to defeat an enemy (Theyalans, or
Malkioni), losing part of their respective Hsunchen magic, but gaining
a new whole. This would have been 1st Age, pre God Learner. Just an
idea, with thoughts why other deities (e.g. elemental deities) came to
the fore, based on an "obscure" Glorantha source (thanks again, Bob).
Someone asked about the mean Wolverine Hsunchen. Well, do we take the
Trickster-story (if I remember correctly, by Paul Reilly) about the
joint marriage between a couple of bears and a couple of weasles mucked
up by the Trickster into the Gospel? It certainly does a lot to explain
these meanies (not blue).
The Horned Bear, and other fantastic beasts: Apart from the fact that
Wonderwood still is home to such beasties, Glorantha is remarkably
earth-like in its fauna, if you leave out chaos, legendary beasties
from known earth mythologies (Griffins, Hippogriffs, etc), gigantism,
and anachronisms (dinosaurs, titanotheres). The only unique animal I
can think of out of my head is the Rubble Runner (Runners being no
animals in the real sense). With all these unique intelligent races
around, this seems to be a bit underpowered. Opinions? Our biologists?
I really liked the appearance of the odder mundane beasties in Ralios.
Does anybody have more ideas (or even information) about the 1st Age
Basmoli kingdom? Their culture - a mix of Hsunchen and self-made
civilisation - would have been interesting.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: God Learning
Message-ID:
Date: 30 May 94 14:39:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4254
Nick, confessing non-God Learner, in X-RQ-ID: 4224
> Joerg writes:
>> Orlanth, Yelm, Magasta, Pamalt, Lodril, Mother Earth and the Red Goddess
>> are the only deities I would place above all other deities.
> Looks like you have an elemental fixation, to me. Three obvious questions:
> (1) Why Lodril?
If you dare a head-count of worshippers, including associate, pantheon
or whatever you call them initiates , I think you
will end up with Lodril as the god with the most worshippers throughout
Glorantha, or at least in the top five.
And I think to be second in most pantheons, and present in some form in
the rest, warrants a place among the leaders. IMHO Lodril is
underestimated by most because of his boorish appearance. Strangely the
Dara Happans come closest to recognize his real position, although
masked with disdain.
> (2) Where's Uleria?
I didn't think of her. Maybe she is too subtle to elbow her way to
the top? And then it is stereotypical to place all Ulerians on the top
.
> (3) What about the Powers?
Good question. All of them died (or changed so much they aren't the
same any more), and neither they themselves nor their successors really
head any pantheon. The elemental successors do. The play the prime tune
in Glorantha's God Plane, whereas the former ruling council of Powers
(and Elements) had chosen to leave the Stewardship of the world to the
elements. The elemental gods are immanent, the Powers are transcendent.
This makes them less concerned with their position as well, doesn't it?
> The 'orthodox' list of greater gods (all of the 'current Rune-owners') has
> nouns, verbs and adjectives (elements, powers and forms, call them what you
> will). If the world were 'static', making elementals more 'important' than
> gods of power and form would make some sense.
Catch me being orthodox! (Ok, when it suits me...:)
Orthodox God Learner monomyth has the sequence of numbers cum elements
to describe Glorantha. Latest in the Fire/Sky/Sun era, the Celestial
court decided to withdraw from the mundane matters, and to leave them
to the second generation elemental rulers. They chose transcendence
over involvement. A lot of philosophers say that this was the reason
for their downfall.
In a God Learnerish systemisation of deities into meta-pantheons catch
any power deity to attain the leading position. You will find either
elemental deities (which fit the GL canon best) or, for the Elder Races
and the Hsunchen, form deities. In case of Mostal, the GLs have argued
his Stasis to mean Stone, an element for their purposes.
Everywhere you will find the Powers as Secondary Runes for the
Elemental Rulers. Fertility is almost always subject to one of the
elements, Uleria is seen as an associate to the elemental goddess
holding the important aspects of fertility (Ernalda, Triolina, Aldrya,
Mee Vorala, Kyger Litor).
> As it is, your categorisation
> seems to imply a harmonious ordering of Glorantha with no change/develop-
> ment/conflict conducted along other than elemental lines.
Ever since Umath's rejection by Yelm, Change has been disassociated
from harmony, and associated with Disorder. This might be the reason
why you need Trickster to achieve a Change within the Compromise.
I blame the Compromise and its effectors for impressing the elemental
grand scheme on Glorantha as much as the withdrawal of the Celestial
Court.
> A bit too simple
> for me to accept. (Especially coming from a self-confessed God Learner!).
I didn't put forth the whole theory, clogging up the daily as I do
anyway. Funny that a dedicated non-GL would criticize my God Learning,
though.
Ok, enough God Learning. Where is my pyre? Oh, it's Umaliath this time?
BTW, good that you put out the Yinkin shepherd story without prompting.
Why not earlier?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Early Malkioni and God Learners
Message-ID:
Date: 30 May 94 14:40:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4255
Nick in X-RQ-ID: 4234
> I know Joerg differs, but I think there is no distinction between the early
> Return to Rightness Crusade and the later God Learners.
The great distinction I see is that the crusaders were just common
people fighters, not head-high-in-the-clouds philosophers, but
extremely pious (and naive) people led by their wizard clerics. These
wizard-clerics may have been partly God Learners, but I daresay that
most of them were similarly naive shepherds (or what comparison do
Malkioni wizards use) who just believed the doctrine spewed forth by
the indoctrinators, who certainly were influenced by the God Learners.
I think this far Nick and I do agree.
My diverging picture of early 2nd Age Jrustela has its roots in the
origin of the God Learners. Little has been published about these.
Glorantha Book (from Genertela Box) states that Jrustela was settled by
Seshnelan colonists already around 500, when they had the leisure to
form the earliest God Learner study groups.
"The earliest practitioners were the Seven Explorers, a collection of
wizards and priests of Eradinthanos, a city in Jrustela." (p.24)
The Return to Rightness Crusade was launched in 675, two centuries
later. The text states that "The philosophy of the God Learners soon
dominated the entire Jrustelan church." First of all this makes me
wonder how this church, which harboured priests as well as wizards,
might have looked like.
The roots of all Jrustelan churches will have come from Seshnela. There
may have been local cults and local humans before the advent of the
Seshnegi, possibly including Aurelion worshippers. There might have
been (Brown) Vadeli, given the maps in Uz Lore, although the Old Drill
mountains seem to have been uninhabited by Mostali at the end of the
Second Age. (The dwarf kingdom might as well have been Slon.)
We know that in Seshnela there were several forces polarizing. The
first schisma was between Malkioni and (Arolanit) Brithini. This
predated the Dawning, but was intensified by Hrestol's revelation.
Cults of Terror and earlier sources suggest a deep split between the
knight and the wizards faction. I think that the "wizards" mentioned
were Brithini Zzaburi, and that the Malkioni wizards weren't considered
full wizards by them.
The next, internal division occured around 200 ST when the Hrestoli
revisionists, called the True Hrestol Way (doesn't this remind you of
Return to Rightness?) established control of the Malkioni church and
"reformed" the Malkioni church. I can't get rid of the picture of elite
Ironside regiments hunting down royalists in Seshnela, and forcing them
to leave the country. BTW, the ban on Tapping was effected at this
time! Previously Tapping was not _banned_ by the Malkioni! A good
starting point for the Galvosti heresy.
They also condemned "the corrupt pagan ways of the Serpent Kings." What
did happen to the (pagan?) royalists? I suppose a lot of them boarded
Waertagi Dragon ships and moved to Jrustela, founding colonies or
swelling existing ones.
The "corrupt pagan ways" apparently consisted of Ancestor Worship, see
Cults of Prax p.14:
"Other distant lands [such as Seshneg in the Dawn Ages] developed this
form of worship until they made their ancestors surpass the mighty gods
in power, or elses reduced the immortals into mere superhuman heroes or
multi-national ancestors."
And worship of deities at first (the Serpent Kings descended from
Seshna Likita, who thus became both ancestor and deity).
(In this light, how would they have worshipped Chalana Arroy? )
This theistic strain becomes evident in Hrelar Amali as well, where the
Seshnegi raised temples to Orlanth and Magasta. (RQ-Companion, Jonstown
Compendium)
As I said above, the losers in this debate are likely to have emigrated
at least in part to the colonies where the strictures may have been
less severe. This might explain both the presence of priests and the
disrespect to deities displayed by the later God Learners.
Sometimes between 200 and 370 the Seshnegi attack on Brithos must have
taken place, which reduced Seshnela to the state Arkat encountered
around 400. Seshnela was crushed, the colonies must have gained some
freedom, and in the end the linealist faction came to power again: "The
Kingdom of Seshnela was small, with the king engaged in purging other
dynasts of their inheritances, when Arkat came to the land at the end
of the Dawn Age."
I'd guess that the one-time ruling True Hrestoli suffered a severe
setback at the battle of Brithos (the first, the later God Learners
made another attempt, and vanished), which would have caused not few of
them to seek exile in the colonies.
This would bring _both_ kinds of fanatic religious groups of Seshnela
to the continent of Jrustela, similar to the settlement of North
America by the Europeans, where all extreme religious groups sought a
new life there.
Seshnela recovered from its weakness after Arkat left to scour Ralios,
and regained much of its power. I wonder what the Malkioni of Akem and
around Sog City looked like in this time. They must have had closer
contact to Brithos than the Seshnegi (as their more closely related
language indicates). I doubt they were in any respect similar to modern
day Loskalmi Hrestoli, rather like the Carmanians before their forced
exile, minus the Talor elements.
This gives me the more polytheistic Serpent King faction on Jrustela,
which may even have sported priests, and the (over)zealous True
Hrestoli monotheist faction, which started modern Malkioni doctrine.
The latter are the ideal breeding ground for any crusade...
> The very first God Learners used their techniques to learn about God.
Given the collection of belief variants above, and the presence of the
priests, I dare say that they wanted to learn about gods and humans as
well.
> Then they turned them [the techniques] to
> bind demons into servitude, or cast them utterly from the world.
Why demons? We talk about ancestors here!
> Compare to King Solomon binding the Jinn.
Is this in the bible? If so, where?
> But in their later years they lapsed into
> bloated heresy and decadence, worshipping graven images and having zillions
> of concubines and so on. So their Empire was overthrown by the Wrath of God
> manifesting all over the place.
This implies an immanent Invisible God, doesn't it?
> A good cautionary tale for Malkioni, which
> allows them to have been Good to start with, Bad at the end.
The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions. The God Learners must
have done next to half of the length, following the trails of the
Second Council. "New section under construction! Signed: Argrath"
One of the most benevolent experiment of the God Learners is the
Issaries Desert Tracker subcult. Should this cult succeed some day,
Genert might be revived, and all Genertela would bloom again.
Hmm. A variant idea: The God Learners were overthrown by Zzabur when
they dared to threaten Brithos again. The landing ventures of the
Seshnegi in Brithos remind me of those of the Dunedain in Valinor, in
Second Age Middle-earth. Maybe Zzabur released the Red Vadeli to effect
this. Should anyone rediscover Brithos and manage to assault it, even
the Blue Vadeli might return.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: CryptoMatt@aol.com
Subject: Re:Yinkin the Shepherd
Message-ID: <9405301104.tn616707@aol.com>
Date: 30 May 94 15:04:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4256
In X-RQ-ID: 4233, Nick Brooke replies to my Yinkin comments as follows.
>But I don't for one moment believe the Orlanthi herd
>with cats. (Perhaps a clan or tribe may do, somewhere, but they're an
>aberration). That's what they keep dogs for: the menial work. If you turn
>cats into dogs, there's no real point to using them as an Orlanthi symbol.
>It's not a 'plausibility' question; just that "we all know" there are
>differences between Cat people and Dog people, and even worse than Dog
>people would be turn-Cat-into-Dog people. (I speak as a Cat person).
Speaking as a cat person myself, I'm not sure that I accept the idea of
herd cats either. However I find it hard to accept the idea of hunting
cats, yet according to Dorastor Land of Doom, they exist.
As far as "menial work" demeaning cats to the point where there is no real
point as using them as an Orlanthi symbol, I'm not sure that I can accept
that. Perhaps Yinkin takes the role of honored helper in Orlanth's stead,
and that is why alynxes (or shadowcats) are sacred to Orlanthi.
I would like to mention several historical examples to support my theory,
but I don't know of any. I suppose that is one of the difficulties of not
being an anthropologist or a historian. ;-)
Nick, I enjoyed The Tale of Yinkin the Shepherd.
However, none of my feline friends would ever have paid attention to Brother
Dog's foolish comments.
They know that if they chose to herd sheep, they'd do a much better job of it
than any dog. It is so obvious to them that they'd feel no need to prove
it.
On that note, I must bid you adieu.
-Matt Thale