From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 02 Jun 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: DevinC@aol.com Subject: A Story from my Campaign Message-ID: <9406011256.tn700726@aol.com> Date: 1 Jun 94 16:56:10 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4299 Devin Cutler here: The following story owes its style of tense to Oliver Dickinson, as will become obvious. It was written during RQ2 days. It involves a character named Sunray, a Yelmalian, who in my campaign journeyed north into the Elder Wilds and found the Castle to Vivamort (which is called Canaveil) rumoured to exist from the Griffin Mountain book. Upon entering, he eventually rescued an imprisoned being within the castle, who turns out to be an incarnation of Arkat or Nysalor (Sunray does not know this) (who can seemingly split himself into many pieces at will, per GCHW Ralios section). In any case, Arkat/Nysalor, as thanks for rescuing him, Illuminated Sunray, showed him a vision of the White Moon to come, and gave him the ability to pronounce a Word in Godtongue which means Resolution. Well, all this was too much for Sunray, who snapped. He began to see his gift (illumination) as a gift/curse, especially once he started getting persecuted for his odd beliefs. Thus, Sunray became an odd loner/drifter, wandering around Sartar telling the tale of Canaveil and his rescue of the Arkat/Nysalor being to any who would listen. He became quite a good storyteller, at least with this one tale, and the story, regarded as fanciful and completely made up, began to make its way around inns in Sartar. Alas, Sunray began to realise that there was a connection between the telling of the Story of Canaveil and the being he rescued. He also began to become more unhinged, and upon finding that the Godtongue Word given to him seemed to have some sort of cosmic consequences, began to resent being used as a pawn of the gods. Thus, he began to develop a death wish. Wishing to rid himself of the Word, he finally meets a Thane Kiri Windstorm and offhandedly decides Kiri should know this Word. Sunray teaches Kiri the Word, finds that he can no longer say it, and returns to wandering Sartar, telling his tale. That is where our story opens............ A STORY - As told to me by one named Samsor Gregmakk, a cobbler's apprentice from Alone. "I am going to whet my whistle in the Lonely Inn, for it is a place that the Lunars do not frequent and you can be like yourself and pick a fight without having to worry about slugging a Red Bastard and getting nailed, and I am talking with some friends of mine when a man walks in and takes a few steps to the centre of the room, putting his hands on his hips as if awaiting notice. Now, the Inn isn't a bad place if you keep your cool and don't do exactly what this man does, but since he does it, things aren't about to keep cool. Like my friend Gibble says afterwards, this man has the face that says `Here I am! Kill me, please!' Well, a tough one named Harshar Bugeater,who is, surprisingly, not a troll but a Stormbull from Pimperblock, decides that this is his time to get up and relieve himself, and he seems to feel that the most direct path to this relief is through the place this man is standing. Bug, as he is called, though not to his face, rams into the man and sends him falling to the floor. I do not think Bug expects most locals to get up after such a ramming, as we all know his prowess with the battle axe and his temper, so we would lie very still and hope that Bug steps upon a part of our body that we don't care much for. However, this man is obviously a warrior type, decked out in chain with leather underneath. A mean looking yew bow sprouts from behind his shoulder - it must be painful, we all think, sticking into his back on the hard wooden floor - and he has within reach his spear, which has fallen to the ground. So Bug expects an answer from the man and stands above him looking real mean at him. Will, I don't think Bug notices the iron tip on the spear, but we do and start to hit the dirt, having heard about Runelord fights before. I can't resist the chance to see Runespells flying though, and I peek up from behind our spilt table. The man laughs, and it isn't the kind of hysterical laughter you see from trollkin sometimes when they find out that they are on the menu. This is like the laugh of a troll who has just been challenged to hand-to-hand combat by an elf. Bug doesn't like the implications of this - or being called an elf, which I didn't - and kicks the man hard in the side, where his kidneys should be. I say `should' because the man continues to laugh so hard that I think his side hurts more from his laughter than from the kick. Laughing at a Stormbull is not the best thing to do when you are on the ground and your spear is not even in your hand. In fact, as I think about it, laughing at a Stormbull is never a good idea, and I think most will agree with me. Bug goes red as a cicada and bellows a nice, meaty, Stormbull hollar. You can't understand the words, but it sounds like HAAROOMFF!!, and he draws his axe. I do not see what happens right after this because I duck behind the table, feeling that I am right in the direction the blood from the man's neck will spray when his head comes off, and my wife will kill me when I come home with my new tunic bloodstained. But when I hear nothing, I peek over the top again and see the man looking up at the Stormbull with a very frightened and serious look in his eyes. This seems to please Bug, who is finally earning some fear and respect, and he hesitates before chopping. This is all the time the man needs to burst out laughing again. Well, Bug cannot handle this situation, and musters up whatever brains he has in his noggin to say to the man `What for you is laughing at me when chop you head off?!?' We are all amazed at this display of wit from Bug and some of us consider clapping before we realize it is hard to clap for long with an axe in your head. The man takes a while to stop laughing, but Bug seems intrigued enough to wait. When he stops, the man answers `Because I am amazed that you are going to kill me.' We think the man must be as dumb as Bug to say this thing, but we decide Bug is dumber because he says `What do you mean?' The man says `I mean I have tried to kill myself in various ways for the last five years in order to rid myself of a curse and have failed every time. Now that my curse is finally lifted, here you are attempting to kill me!' I can almost see Bug's big belly move as he slowly chews and swallows everything the man says. We are rooting for Bug to understand so that this fight will be over quickly and we can get up off of the floor. But Bug seems to have trouble swallowing one word, and he says `Curse?' Now, those Praxians are dumb, but they are also superstitious, and Bug does not seem to like that word. He lets his axe drop a little bit and most of us groan inside because we whink this will be a long talking - which for Bug is usually a few words. `Yes,' says the man `I was cursed by a god as thanks for rescuing him, and it was only a short time ago that I passed on my curse to someone more deserving.' I see the hawk fly up to the window sill and watch the talking, but Gibble says he notices it first and we have a long argument about it afterwards. The hawk stares at the two men and we all know this is the man's ally and that he is a Yelmalian. Well, Bug decides that he will hear the tale of this curse and he helps the man up and takes him over to the table. Some of us come over to listen, though we stay away from Bug and his unbloodied axe. We all hear the tale, but it seems that Bug is the only one who becomes Illuminated during Sacred Time. We all wonder who will be next in future years, and some of us go into hiding. I tell my wife and no other for some time. But my advice to you is never listen to the the tales of any stranger who seems to laugh at death, especially if he starts his tale......... Let me tell you the story of Canaveil" Regards, Devin Cutler devinc@aol.com --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: various Message-ID: <9406011754.AA02778@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 1 Jun 94 05:54:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4300 Jonas Schiott mentions: >The New Fens are no longer _in_ Ralios, they're in Maniria. Clarification: the New Fens have not changed their position. When first written up by Ken, Greg and I did not know what to call that part of Glorantha. Later it was decided to name the south coast Maniria, and the New Fens became part of it, though most of its inhabitants were either native to the New Fens, refugees from Slontos, or folks migrating south from Ralios. Alex mentions: >while I can believe Aeolian wizardry exists, I'm skeptical of it >being practiced en masse. I haven't followed all the discussion on Aeolian wizardry, but surely only 9% of the Aeolian believers even _qualify_ for wizardry, no? (That's the percentage of randomly-generated humans who have a 10% magic bonus.) >I see no reason why any or all of the following cannot exist: >a Stygian-style IG/CA cult, with (some) CA rune magic; a >Petersenesque Saint-style worship of CA, or a subcult thereof; a >cult of St. CA, granting specialist healing magics. One might then >start to wonder if these were all the "same" CA, or even the "real" >one. And? I'll buy it. However, I submit that the third variety, the "cult of St. CA", is more likely to be a monastic order of specialists, as practiced by the Malkioni. Operators of hospital/convents. Practiced in this fashion, I can see the cult propagated even into Tanisor, until some burst of iconoclasm trashes them, which I suspect periodically happens to all the "false" saint cults (i.e., those based on entities worshiped by howling pagans). I have long been an adherent of the belief that deities can be worshiped in a "false" manner. Ere now, most of the false worship I've considered has been shamanistic in form (i.e., a Pent medicine man summoning up the Dark Mother to get the Blinding spell, never realizing he is really worshiping Kyger Litor). >This is a weird one. Doesn't [Arkat's Blessing] break the >pseudo-rule that illumination is not magically detectable? Yes. By the way, I deny being a Hrestoli simp except for the obvious fact that if I lived in Glorantha, I'd rather be a Hrestoli than a Rokari. HOWEVER, I'd rather have my PLAYERS be Rokari, when I'm running a RQ game. >I think the considerable majority of Hrestoli worship saints in this >way, but that many Rokari do not, regarding it as Stygianism by >other means. Having helped write the original Invisible God cult, I'd like to believe that the "standard form" saint cult is pretty common throughout Malkionism. However, there is one branch of your argument I'd like to explore much much more -- the possibility that the Rokari tend towards iconoclasm. Presumably, during one of these periodic fits, it's dangerous to even worship the saints in the traditional method. I like the whole idea of Rokari iconoclasts, especially as a reaction on their part to preserve "true" Malkionism against the perceived threat of Stygianism and the Henotheist Church. Plus the many more heresies threatening the Rokari lands. Of course, there's just as many heresies up in Fronela facing the Hrestoli, but for most of the last century the Closing has kept 'em away. I believe that the Rokari say that >>humans are always committing sins because we are evil by nature. Alex asks: >I wonder why the Malkioni would beleive this. Beats me. Why do most Christian churches believe this? Well, regardless of why Earth sects believe it, we need a reason for the Rokari to do so. A likely possibility is that humans aren't innately evil -- instead, the World around us is evil, because it was corrupted during the Darkness. Because we are continually surrounded by evil, we naturally tend to act in evil ways. Maybe even our bodies are evil, because they're made of the corrupted substance of the world (only our souls are pure, inasmuch as we don't taint them with sin). If the Rokari believe this, it would help explain their tendencies towards iconoclasm and asceticism. >Whatever's wrong with just _starting_ a crusade? [as a penance] Nothing, if the penitent is a Lord, and the Wizard in charge has someone he thinks needs thwacking. >But I'm sure many Hrestoli also consider that they'd be "saved by >grace" Rather than being "saved by grace", I prefer to think of it as "following your star", in which some Malkioni feel that as long as you're true to yourself, it doesn't much matter _what_ you do. Now, if you follow this theory to its logical extreme, you needn't even worship the IG to get to Solace. In fact, eventually it becomes a form of Universalism. Now, I think that the Hrestoli themselves are opposed to this materialistic permissive philosophy. I think they strive to do good deeds, and even occasionally take penances, though I also think they may believe you can do good deeds "in advance". However, I think there is definitely a place for this pernicious belief (that whatever a man does is "good", sort of a super-moral-relativism). I peg this philosophy as being native to the Jonatings. Naturally, they don't let the peasants believe this -- _they_ have to worship Ernalda. But the rulers and knights adhere to this version of being saved through no act of their own, but by the IG's good pleasure. So, here is my belief on the Jonating's Official Philosophy: THE JONATING PHILOSOPHY: Every ruler, knight, and wizard ought to become popular, and they ought not to labor with their hands, but they ought to be supported by the people. All mankind will obtain Solace after death, so they need not fear nor tremble, but they might lift up their heads and rejoice, for the Invisible God has created all men, and has also redeemed all men, and in the end all men should have Solace. THE JONATING PRACTICE: Therefore, it doesn't really matter how harsh or how terrible conditions are in this life -- after all, after death we'll all have Solace, and that happy afterlife will last so long that earth life is a mere blink. So it's perfectly okay to oppress the hell out of the peasants. >Malkioni don't (apparently) appear to believe in Final Judgement of >any (wholesale) kind, so presumably you go to Solace (or not) as >soon as you die (or via purgatory, perhaps). Perhaps the purgatory consists of having to spend a time in the spirit world, or some pagan afterlife, or even being a ghost. No doubt Hell is the same, but permanent. I think that some Malkioni (no bets on who, yet) believe that non-Malkioni are reincarnated after death. >The fact that many different peoples now agree that the >same entities appear in their myths is merely a reflection of the >lies and propaganda spread by the GLers There is absolutely no evidence that the same entities didn't appear in the myths before the GL (of course, there wouldn't be, even if Alex is right). But I do have at least one non-trivial bit of data supporting my theory that the Monomyth is a discovery, not an invention: Arkat, in heroquesting, noticed that he was able to go to the same place on different heroquests from different cults. I said > The crimes of the Middle Sea Empire were outweighed by their >triumphs. Alex points out: >Pro: neat cult writeups. >Con: destroyed a continent or so. The God Learners didn't destroy any continents, and would have prevented the damage if they could. Let's not blame the victims. Loren mentions: >Castrated Humakti from Carmania? WOW! What an insight! Who else >could guard the haram like a Humakti Eunuch? And Eunuch even rhymes >with Duck! Almost, that is. Now, this makes ME think of something -- in one of my old campaigns, a human PC insulted a duck PC by calling him a "capon". 'Twas a nice double insult, as it not only belittled his manhood, but also subtly implied that he was tastier to eat than the norm. (Ducks HATE jokes about eating.) Now, I know that "capon" isn't strictly accurate for a duck, or is it? Is there a name for a castrated duck? Does anyone do this? If a castrated turkey is also called a capon (is it?), perhaps the duck should be too? Thoughts? Language scholars? Anyone? >As regards the wording, a geas is a geas, and they were certainly >under a compulsion, so my use of the term is justified. I thought you handled the hosing of your PCs by the Mostali well. However, the word "geas" is being mis-used here. A "geas" is _not_ a way to force somebody to go on a quest. It is a taboo which, if you break, you are harmed. The Humakti & Yelmalio geases are actually quite like unto the old Celtic ones in usage. In my own campaign, the PCs sold one of their number (a snow troll) to a wizard (don't ask). When they realized what they'd done, they hastened to the wizard to beg for their comrades life. The wizard made them each eat a black wafer, and then told them that if they didn't bring him something better than a snow troll's liver in one year's time, they would die. This wasn't a geas -- if he'd instead commanded them never to lift their swords against a wizard, _that_ would be a geas. But it was certainly a quest under compulsion. I realize this is just semantics, but if we don't use our words correctly, we're no better than the D&Ders saying abominations like "dweomer". Graeme Lindsell complains: >I want "good guy" Malkionists, ie some group that don't harshly >oppress the lower classes and strangers (the Brithini, Seshnelans >and the Jonateli do that admirably), Tap, and aren't raving fanatics >like the Loskalmi. First, I don't think you can find Good Guy Malkioni that Tap. Second, I'm not sure why the Loskalmi are typified as raving fanatics. Just because the Rokari claim the Hrestoli are idealists doesn't mean the Hrestoli themselves can't be good guys. Third, the Rokari acceptance of castes doesn't automatically make them a bad guy, though it certainly allows them to do so. There was little advancement from peasant status in feudal Japan or Europe, but there were still no doubt happy areas in which the peasants didn't feel as though their rulers were abominable tyrants. Fourth, just because *some* Safelstrans are oppressive and bad doesn't mean they all are. There's a dozen or more states there, each with its own national system of doing things, and plenty of them can be good guys. >How would the Earth Worshippers kill? Feed 'em to the sacred crocodiles. Or dinosaurs or whatever. --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) Subject: Re: Primal Deities Message-ID: <9406011820.AA02503@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 1 Jun 94 18:20:09 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4301 Paul Reilly here. David Dunham writes: >Really primal deities are hard to reach and don't have many direct benefits. The Celestial COurt made their powers freely available to all. They still do. Their magic is everywhere, usable by practically everyone, and often doesn't even cost Magic Points to use. For example, one can call on Aether to send Fire just by rubbing two sticks together (rapidly). To call on Uleria's power of reproduction is a similar process, but more fun. I'm quite serious about this - the nature of the world is determined by these 'primal gods'. They lack cult structure not because they are hard to reach but because they are free with their aid. For example, Flamal makes your plants grow whether or not you worship him. You can get a little extra "oomph" through his cult structure, but it's not really necessary. - Paul Reilly --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 01 Jun 1994, part 4 Message-ID: <9406011834.AA02603@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 1 Jun 94 18:34:28 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4302 Paul Reilly again. Graeme writes: "I don't want "bad guy" Orlanthi (plenty of those in Dragon Pass IMO), I want "good guy" Malkionists, ie some group that don't harshly oppress the lower classes and strangers (the Brithini, Seshnelans and the Jonateli do that admirably), Tap, and aren't raving fanatics like the Loskalmi." Glad someone agrees about the Loskalmi. The Junorans might fit your description, of course they are caught between Loskalm and the Kingdom of War and will have to knuckle under to the former to resist destruction by the latter. Kind of like Hungary in WW2: do you trust the Nazis or the Soviets? Ugh. Anywhere where the Malkioni DON'T have the political power they might be relatively OK, like the Janube city-states. Of course the people you are really describing are the Jrusteli. Religious and political freedom characterized the home country of the Middle Sea Empire. Otherwise they could not have made the developments that they did. Of course their economic and political colonies may not have enjoyed the same freedoms (compare the US and Nicaragua, frex, or Belgium and the Congo). The Jrusteli get a lot of bad press, but remember that the Brithini Talars are very good at spin doctoring (2000% Spin Doctor skill, always crits, can do wonders in making people hate you.) Imagine the reputation Western society and "The Scientists" would have in 500 years in a post-apocalyptic scenario. " While I do like the original idea of an oppressive culture doing it's best to keep out the nomads and keep in the peasants, putting it in Salfester removes the last lot of Malkioni. I'm still more inclined to put it in the Redlands: makes a shock for Lunar characters to find how the freedom of the Lunar way disappears when they approach the Pentans." Hmm. I treat the Redlands quite differently, remember they had no problems from the Pentans for a long time after the Nights of Horror. Those lands were just considered 'empty' and I thought they were populated by people who wanted MORE freedom. Have to look up some references in order to have a Scholarly Debate and drive off some of the heathen :-) > How would the Earth Worshippers kill? Burial alive and defenestration >I could see for the Dark Earth worshippers. While these are fun I think the could old 'cut their throats so their blood will feed the earth' is also popular. Crushed between stones is a good one as well. I think Old Tarsh practiced this sort of thing and that the Exiles on Wintertop still do. Less common elsewhere but still down in emergencies.