From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 03 Jun 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (The Lotus Jukebox)
Subject: Vanna, give me a letter....
Message-ID: <01HD25J0X3AA8WW7JJ@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 2 Jun 94 03:02:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4319
JohnPHughes>Bryan Maloney, who is Vanna White?
HAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAHAHAH! YES! I never thought I'd see the day when
someone didn't know who Vanna is! Lovely! 'Course, we had to go to
Australia to do it. ;)
She's an associate goddess of the famous Chaos god of unctuousness,
Pat Sajak. Their worship services involve spinning a mysterious
Wheel of Fortune (or possibly Torture) and trying to solve a word
puzzle. Sadly, the worshippers all seem to be descended from
brain-damaged broos and attempt to solve puzzles thus:
ALL'S WELL THAT ENDS ____
Pat, is it "All's well that ends glue?"
-or-
Worshipper: I'd like to buy a vowel.
Pat Sajak: Go ahead.
Worshipper: Is there a J?
Pat Sajak: J is not a vowel....
(this actually happened!!!!)
I believe that all right-thinking Yelm worshippers (who watch
"Jeopardy!" and quibble over the rules) will soon rise up and destroy
Pat's cult.
GROUP MARRIAGE
Why would they be so heavily into birth control? I don't think
they'd produce any more children in a group marriage than they would
if they were married in individual pairs. Besides, I think that many
trolls are in group marriages (with several sisters sharing a band of
husbands), and they certainly wouldn't want to reduce the number of
children.
Just curious.
--Scott
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Hrestol a martyr?
Message-ID:
Date: 2 Jun 94 13:04:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4320
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 4292
> Graeme Lindsell:
>> I've never seen any reference to Hrestol being executed, much less how
>> he died - can you point me to one?
> Well, looks like my theory's the only one in town, and seems to plug a hole
> in the mythos. As I said, there's no supporting evidence for *any* part of
> the hypothesis. Take it or leave it.
Well, I'm not too sure about Hrestol being executed. As the epitome of
a knight, I'd envision his "martyrdom" to be more of the Roland or Artus
kind. If you really need a prophet martyred by execution, take Malkion,
and make his own sons the judges who condemn him.
We know Hrestol found the way to protect Seshnela from the Basmoli by
introducing knighthood. How about this death: Hrestol, by now aged,
but still a fighter of impressive skill, and a handful of boon
companions, ride out to save some Arolanit villagers from a marauding
band of Basmoli toughs. The sorcerers get wind of this and decide
to make an end of this nuisance in a saddle, and inform the Basmoli leaders
of this. The Basmoli stage a trap, but Hrestol manages to escape. A long
persecution along the Nidan River ends at a rocky crevice, where Hrestol
and the remaining of his companions find a defensible position which they
hold for several days against overwhelming odds of Basmoli. The end comes
when a contingent of elite Horali soldiers, sent and magiced by the
Arolanit sorcerers, manages to crush his resistance and slay him.
Afterwards the Basmoli deliver enough of his remains to become a
holy relic (or a few), to honour a foe "who fought with a true lion's
strength and determination", against the protests of the Brithini.
How about this version? No evidence either.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Trinity again
Message-ID:
Date: 2 Jun 94 14:34:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4321
Harald Smith in X-RQ-ID: 4294
Nice piece on Imther!
A request: could you let your texts begin at the left edge?
By the time your message comes to me, half of it consists of
spaces. I promise to try and cut my quotings shorter in return!
> - Assorted discussions on the Trinity
> My feeling is that a son, father, spirit representation of
> the Invisible God is not correct. [...] I think
> one thing to keep in mind is that to some extent the
> development of the 3-in-1 Christianity was a mythical
> inversion of the earlier pagan 3-in-1 goddess, used
> particularly by early Christians to convert the pagans.
I hear this for the first time. I would have thought that the
father-son relation would have been a too nice parallel to
Mithraism (the real contender with Christianity in Constantine's
era) not to be exploited in conversions. Noone was interested in
converting the heathens, it was inside the empire the church had
to establish itself in this expansive period. I don't know whether
Isis or Ishtar were organised along this 3-in-1 scheme at that time,
being another quite popular sect of this era.
> I can certainly see the Malkionis attempting to find ways to
> convert the followers of the Serpent Kings or Orlanth
> (creating saints, aiding Seshna, etc.), but a trinity of
> aspects does not seem important mythologically.
I had the impression that the Seshnegi were Malkioni before they settled
(conquered) Seshnela. From the Daka Fal write-up in Cults of Prax I take
it that the "pagan" elements among the Seshnegi practised ancestor
worship to an extent where King Froalar was of the same stature as his
wife, the goddess Seshna Likita, and both surpassing the major deities
of the elements etc.
I found the trinity fine as a concept for "Stygian" or "Henotheist" sects,
and apparently I'm not the only one who feels so. The "Creator incarnate"
concept at least helps to explain why this deity or that has a rightful
claim to dominance.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Ralios etc
Message-ID:
Date: 2 Jun 94 14:34:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4322
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4300
> Alex mentions:
>>while I can believe Aeolian wizardry exists, I'm skeptical of it
>>being practiced en masse.
> I haven't followed all the discussion on Aeolian wizardry,
> but surely only 9% of the Aeolian believers even _qualify_ for
> wizardry, no? (That's the percentage of randomly-generated humans who
> have a 10% magic bonus.)
This is for apprentices only. What Alex and I are arguing about (now
privately, whoever is interested is invited to listen in) is whether
the non-specialist magic in Hendrikiland would be overwhelmingly spirit
magic, or whether there wold be a high proportion of people who use the
simpler sorcery spells as personal magic instead of spirit magic, spells
taught by the Aeolian heresy not only to specialists, but also to normal
people.
Note that we argue about southern Heortland specifically, not about
Ralios or Wenelia.
> Having helped write the original Invisible God cult, I'd like
> to believe that the "standard form" saint cult is pretty common
> throughout Malkionism. However, there is one branch of your argument
> I'd like to explore much much more -- the possibility that the Rokari
> tend towards iconoclasm. Presumably, during one of these periodic
> fits, it's dangerous to even worship the saints in the traditional
> method. I like the whole idea of Rokari iconoclasts, especially as a
> reaction on their part to preserve "true" Malkionism against the
> perceived threat of Stygianism and the Henotheist Church. Plus the
> many more heresies threatening the Rokari lands.
Also in Rokari colonies (Richard the Tiger-hearted's Kingdom of
Malkonwal, or the Nolosian mission in Umathela and Fonrit)?
How exactly would the Rokari invaders have treated (or rather usurped)
the existing structure of the Aeolian Church of Heortland and twisted it
into their mode of worship?
I ruled that they will purge the Aeolian temples of all pagan symbols (like
air runes), that they forced the native Aeolian populace to follow Rokari
services etc. How would they have treated pagan Orlanthi, or (if these
exist) spirit magic using Aeolians? Would they forbid the use of Aeolian
miracles (Orlanthi divine magic)? Would they close the Chalana Arroy
nunneries within the Aeolian structure? Would they burn pagan books in the
Lhankor Mhy sections of the church?
By the way, there seems to be legends pertaining both to a King or
saviour in Heortland expected from the West and to the name Malkonwal.
Does anybody know anything about these?
> Graeme Lindsell complains:
>>I want "good guy" Malkionists, ie some group that don't harshly
>>oppress the lower classes and strangers (the Brithini, Seshnelans
>>and the Jonateli do that admirably), Tap, and aren't raving fanatics
>>like the Loskalmi.
> First, I don't think you can find Good Guy Malkioni that Tap.
I understood Graeme so that they oughtn't Tap, oppress, or rave fanatically.
But then I believe that there can be extremely well-meaning Boristi who
Tap Chaos for the Glory of the Invisible God.
> Second, I'm not sure why the Loskalmi are typified as raving
> fanatics. Just because the Rokari claim the Hrestoli are idealists
> doesn't mean the Hrestoli themselves can't be good guys.
Their leaders, especially Meriatan, seem to be. His sense of mission
reminds me of Third Reich paroles...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: More Galanini and Hsunchen confusion
Message-ID:
Date: 2 Jun 94 14:36:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4323
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 4303
> Jonas said
>>The orlanthi have for many generations considered it
>>prudent not to anger them by riding horses, partly because they are still a
>>military force to be reckoned with, but mostly because of an ingrained
>>respect for these ancient allies. Fortunately, Galanini have adopted enough
>>of the Solar rigidity to follow the exact letter of the law (and to not
>>consider changing it), leaving the option of hitching horses to ploughs,
>>wagons or chariots open.
I have seen a source that reports chariots in use by the Galanini in the
late Second Age.
I don't think the Orlanthi use horses to plow, that's what Oxen are for.
One way the Orlanthi could have their horses and be left in peace by
the Galanini could be that the Galanini horses are the fiery mustangs
of the Felster basin, while the Orlanthi use the shaggy hill pony
(similar to the Iceland pony, which prevailed in all of Europe until
the eleventh century when a horse plague introduced I think from the
crusades exterminated all specimens except on isolated Iceland).
This is a trick as the Zebra people and the Issaries merchants
of Prax used.
> As a consequence (and because Ralian ponies are small and don't make the
> best war horses), most Orlanthi in the East Wilds use chariots. A few ride
> horses, and dare the enmity of the Galanini. Ekel Field-Destroyer, thane of
> the Belovaking clan, is one such; he's established a temple to Elmal
> Horse-Thane to back this up. [This came about when his daughter rolled the
> Pendragon family trait "Good with Horses, Riding +10," a neat case of dice
> serendipity. (Family traits are inherited from the father, and tend to
> express his personal interests.)]
> Joerg said
>>The ability to change into one's
>>phylum seems to have been wide-spread in Godtime. ... Ironhoof
>>seems to have reawakened this creating the Grazer tribe
> Don't believe every myth that was invented during the Ritual of Rebirth
> which Ironhoof held for the refugee horse-riders.
I believe that a few volunteer centaurs actually had to undergo this
rite to cheat the dragonewt decree that no humans were allowed into
Dragon Pass. The vast majority of the Grazers would be survivors
of the Golden Horse people who didn't become trapped at Alavan Argay.
>>King Heort with his antlers
> Where's this reference?
RuneQuest Companion, p.27, Jonstown Compendium 1483. Expanded by
Mr. Nick Brooke...
>>GRoY introduced "new" hill barbarian peoples, like the Ram people
>>with their deity my God Learner secretary recognized as Heler
> Are you saying the Ram people are hsunchen, or that the Dara Happans
> thought they were? Also, how do you associate "their great god, the huge
> iron Ram whose horns could break anything," with Heler?
Heler is one of the most aggressive of the war gods of the Orlanthi. So
was the Ram People in the Dara Happan Storm Age stories. Heler is
associated with sheep (among others because of the cloud forms). If
we think through this further, he is likely to have worn a helmet with
a rams horns.
Raindrops may be soft, but they are proverbial for their ability to break
anything.
And the story how the iron Ram was used to stop the approaching ice inside
the Dara Happan brick dome, and how the waters (even inside) went to sleep,
and the description of Orlanth's travel to slay Aroka are just too neat
coincidences to be ignored by any God Learner (aka comparative mythology
minar) to be ignored.
Mythology often uses the pars-pro-toto naming of objects and people. I just
accuse the Dara Happans to have done so in this case.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Good intention and God Learners
Message-ID:
Date: 2 Jun 94 14:36:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4324
X-RQ-ID 4304:
I loved David Gadbois' theory about the monomyth as necessary to
save the world. I do think that the form as we know it is a fake,
sown together from the fragments which survived the fragmentation
of the world in the Greater Darkness, before Arachne Solara threw
out her net and reconnected the remaining pieces. Where parts of
the universe had been lost in the void, their myths, which might
have bridged the neighbouring versions, would have perished as well.
Where the seams were artificially reknitted, the myths and people
may have clashed with extra fervour.
The Theyalan missionaries of the Dawn Age and (face it!) the Lunar
missionaries in the Third Age did start this way as well, and both
preciptated the cataclysm which ended their Ages (will end them
in case of the Lunars). Just like the God Learners...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: god learning
Message-ID: <9406021537.AA04037@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 2 Jun 94 03:37:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4325
Dave Dunham asks:
>how do you associate "their great god, the huge iron Ram whose horns
>could break anything," with Heler?
Heler is the god of sheep, or at least sheep are his special
animal. I don't know if this has been published or not. Greg told me
it was because sheep fleece reminded him of fluffy clouds.
David Gadbois sez:
> If the God Learners had not done their thing, I suspect that the
>Third Age (whatever that would have been) would have been the last.
Despite my occasional defense of the God Learners, I don't
agree with David G. on this point. It is my belief that the world
very nearly ended with the Second Age BECAUSE of the God Learners'
activities. The Sending Gods barely came in time.
Each Age of Glorantha has ended with cosmic catastrophes of
immense portent, and each Age of Glorantha had the potential of
destroying the entire cosmos. Each Age, the destruction gets closer
and closer to success. The First Age destruction was comparatively
mild -- the only real result was the death of millions of Genertelans
and a near-complete change of Pamaltelan ecology. The Second Age
destruction was much much worse -- entire lands vanished from the
face of the earth, gods died, and the face of myth was altered. The
destruction at the end of the Third Age, it seems to me, is even more
catastrophic, especially mythically. Certainly the Hero Wars are
viewed as an immense threat to all of Glorantha.
Though the GL did not intend to destroy the world, their
activities unwittingly undercut the world's basis. Glorantha reacted
by sending antibodies to eliminate the threat.
Devin wonders:
>I know well and good what the God Learners did, but less clear is
>WHY they did such things. In other words, why create a monomyth? Why
>try to combine or switch gods?
The GL were an entire nation/society of folk, so there is no
one reason why they did anything. Some of them were
scholars/philosophers/scientists who were trying to study the way the
world worked. (After all, why do WE have paleontologists and
astronomers? Neither field would appear to offer immediate benefits
to society.) In other words, they were curious. I like to think that
at the start, they were JUST curious, and it was later on that the
rot started in.
"The rot" was, of course, Power. The GL discovered that their
knowledge of the heroplane, and their understanding of god, myth, and
mankind enabled them to do new things that nobody had ever done
before. The classic example is their use of the Forbidden God.
The Waertagi had been preventing anyone else from
constructing trans-oceanic sailing vessels. The Jrusteli could not
easily beat them at sea. So some researchers looked through the
myths, and discovered the god Tanian, the child of both Fire and
Water. They sent a team of heroquesters to contact this deity, and to
create a cult for him. Once they had the cult in place, they built a
fleet and went toe-to-toe with the Waertagi. At the height of the
battle, they invoked the powers of Tanian -- The God of Burning
Water. Fire literally rained out of the sky and set the sea aflame.
The Waertagi and their ships were destroyed in the holocaust. A
classic success story for both intelligent heroquesting and careful
book-learning.
So what you have in the case of the God Learners is a
combination of exploitative, manipulative, power-hungry merchants and
ivory-tower scholars. Occasionally, some group of carpet-baggers
would spin off from the main God Learner group and found new
political groupings such as the False Dragon Ring or the Six-Legged
Empire.
So, "why create a monomyth"? 'Tis a useful tool in
understanding other people's mythologies. When you meet someone knew,
you can try to fit them in, which both sheds light on your own
beliefs, and also helps you know where to fit them in heroquesting.
Once you decide that Ehilm and Yelm are the same guy, you can
assassinate the Ehilm king by portraying Orlanth on a heroquest, even
if the Ehilm folk have never heard of that particular part of the
legend.
"Why try to combine or switch gods?" These activities were
pure experiments in an honest attempt to discover new truths about
the Heroplane and the nature of Glorantha. The GL responsible may
have had some plan behind it -- for instance, if the Goddess Switch
had been a success, perhaps they'd have tried something bigger next
time, like switching Pamalt and Genert in an attempt to restore life
to the northern continent(!). I'm not saying they were planning this,
but it's a possibility.
In the end, their vast knowledge and skills caused them to
think of the gods as just collections of spells, MPs, and
characteristics. Basically, the God Learners were minimaxers of the
worst possible ilk. And in the end, the universe retorted upon them,
asserting itself before it was destroyed, and destroying them
instead.
Paul Reilly mentions:
>the nature of the world is determined by these 'primal gods'. They
>lack cult structure not because they are hard to reach but because
>they are free with their aid. For example, Flamal makes your plants
>grow whether or not you worship him. You can get a little extra
>"oomph" through his cult structure, but it's not really necessary.
This is basically what I believe as well, except that I also
believe that some of the more primal gods ARE hard to reach. Probably
because they have little personality available for a human to latch
on to and worship. There's few or no human worshipers of Gata, for
instance, but I know that there are a number of elf temples. Elves,
being closer to the earth, no doubt find it easier to worship the Six
Earths.
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.oz.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Hrestoli
Message-ID: <199406021539.XAA15384@cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 2 Jun 94 15:41:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4326
> Second, I'm not sure why the Loskalmi are typified as raving
> fanatics. Just because the Rokari claim the Hrestoli are idealists
> doesn't mean the Hrestoli themselves can't be good guys.
Sandy, I tend to think that having a nation where you only get to
become a ruler when you have sucessfully proved your ability as a
religious leader can get a nation that sort of reputation. Not to mention them
all being ex-military men (which I suspect leads many of them to have a
certain simplistic attitude to problem solving). Now just imagine that the
highest leaders of the land are those that excell at religious dedication and
violence, and you can see what fun guys they must be.
The description of Sir Meriatram probably leads to this reputation,
he seems the sort who would be truly at home on a crusade against the infidel.
Of course this does not at all disqualify them from being good guys,
especially when opposed by the Kingdom of War, but I suspect that they tend
towards the jihad. I would rather not stereotype them as good guys or bad
guys, but I think the fanatic tag sticks. Probably some of them combine the
knightly and religious virtues in the Lancelot, Galahad or Percival style
(hmm... Galahad, perfect and insufferable, a good example), but I suspect
there are more than a few who are 'defenders of the faith' in the style of
a good fanatic Islamic mullah, or maybe a good Christian soldier like
the famous Vlad V of Wallachia (ever seen the woodcut of him breakfasting
among the impaled heretics?). Just my thoughts on how to roleplay the
glorious Hrestoli Church. On the other hand, I am agreed that the Hrestoli
probably treat their peasants better than any other Malkioni sect.
Basically, I think that the Hrestoli are the good guys, as long as
you are on their good side, but I think that they can be terrifying when
they decide that you are the bad guys. Of course, as long as they are fighting
the Kingdom of War no one needs to worry...
Cheers
Dave