From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 03 Jun 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Aggar; traits Message-ID: <199406021625.AA19203@radiomail.net> Date: 2 Jun 94 16:25:49 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4327 I'm currently playing an Orlanthi from Aggar. I gave him an Orlanthi name (Agharl) derived from King of Sartar, forgetting that Glorantha: Genertela has a couple of Aggari names. However, both are Lunar! It strikes me this is quite like the Celts; after they were defeated by the Romans, the nobility adopted Roman names and otherwise Romanized themselves. I presume in Aggar something similar is going on. The nobles would probably have the most to gain by going Lunar (well, at least they get to stay nobles), while I feel the lower-status Aggari would stick to Orlanthi ways (what's the benefit to changing?). Of course, another possibility is that the nobility are imported, but Jomes "Wulf" Hostralus seems like a native Aggari to me. Peter J. Whitelaw said >As an experiment we have assigned the following passions for our Praxian >nomads: > >Love Clan 3d6 >Love Tribe 2d6 Sounds reasonable; from what I know about Praxian culture, there would also be Love Family, probably at the standard 15 (since clans aren't descent groups). >Of course, this is not to say that these characterisations are only going to >occur when one uses traits and passions. True, but it can make it easier to describe them. --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 02 Jun 1994, part 1 Message-ID: <9406021715.AA19920@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 2 Jun 94 17:15:55 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4328 Paul Reilly here. Graeme writes: >> I've never seen any reference to Hrestol being executed, much less how >> he died - can you point me to one? Good point. I don't think he did... but Nick replies: >Well, looks like my theory's the only one in town, and seems to plug a hole >in the mythos. As I said, there's no supporting evidence for *any* part of >the hypothesis. Take it or leave it. The Westerners seem pretty in-the-world kind of guys to me - they associate long life with holiness, a holdover from their Brithini roots. I had kind of guessed that Hrestol was assumed bodily into Solace (i.e., by my theory, a mystic Union with the Invisible God.) rather than dying per se. Skip the whole Good Friday / Easter thing and go straight to the Ascention. I whave to apologize to people about sending out stuff 'soon'; it seems my mailer has been overwriting my old stored mail files and I do not have all the old stuff I had written. I will have to write new stuff or find copies or get them from other people, may take a bit... Devin Cutler writes: D> I do not gainsay Nick's gaming contributions. I thought his scenario D> in TOTRM 11 (I hope I got the issue # right) was great! and later: D> Well Nick, I'm at work, and I KNOW that you wrote a scenario I really D> liked and that it was Sea/God Learner oriented, so maybe change TOTRM D> to #10 and I stand corrected. Rats! I was hoping this was my scenario in #11, mistakenly attributed to Nick. Rather than someone else's in #10, also mistakenly attributed to Nick... - Matt Thale (x-rq-id 4004) asks about the relation of Mastakos and Lokarnos. I think all of the big Movement gods get lamed at some point, following the primal pattern of Larnste. Mastakos gets healed (by Orlanth?) but I think Lokarnos is still lame, hence he is not a Runner like Mastakos or Jmijie - he has to stay on his wagon. I also note that in Dara Happa (GRAoY) he is the God of Merchants; nothing is said about wagons. Perhaps the Dara Happans had the Wheel before other peoples, and their merchants brought the first wagons that many other people ever saw - hence the association of Lokarnos and wagons. Harald Smith comments nicely (XRQID 4294) on various astrological matters connected with the two deities. Oh, I see he agrees with me about Lokarnos being crippled: "Lokarnos" was crippled in hell and must lumber along, aided by either a staff or carried on a wagon. Devin Cutler's Riddles: >What was found by laughter, adopted by truth, used by trees, taken by ambush, >and cleansed by the winds? The First Gift of the Dark Woman. A man who was the Shadow Half of the Pure Light received her Second Gift. >Riddle 2: >Children of Time >and of Death >Always busy >with every breath >the world their charge >land above heel >watching each >spark and wheel >condemned to live >eternal life >unless cut short >by untimely strife >with wonders taken >by human hands >they've secrets left >to fix the land ??? First two lines don't fit my theory. Otherwise they are the Made Makers, the clay ones. >Riddle 3: >One of five can find a treasure but never bring it back. Two of five can >loose the arrow that starts the attack. Three of five can steal a purse and >leave no track. Four of five can pledge a vow so loyalty does not lack. But >five of five can do anything once they have the knack. Perhaps the sons of Umath? >Riddle 4: >What is square but rolls round and when done spots abound? Hmm. Didn't the Block roll? I'll have to think about this. >Riddle 5: Obvious, but very nice. Does Aranea feature in this Heroquest? >Riddle 6: The Emperor. (Golden, not Red!) >Riddle 7: Don't tell this one in Sartar, they'll put you away! ------ ""Argrath" suggested the Morocanth Thumbquest. Peter Michaels and Loren suggested (rightly, IMO) that the thumbs of the human are his 'stake' and get bitten off. However, I don't think they should necessarily get 'grafted' on - if the Morocanth are really Darkness creatures they should be able to practice _becoming_through_eating_ : they just swallow the thumbs and over the next season, the new pair of Morokanth's Thumbs grows out. Note that the human can't just get his thumbs regenerated - the Morokanth has the _pattern_ for his thumbs. He has no 'ghost aura' to guide the Regeneration, like Aura Rot / Leprosy. --- Sandy writes: > The God Learners didn't destroy any continents, and would >have prevented the damage if they could. Let's not blame the victims. Hurrah! One for Old Jrustela! I really do like the better God Learners. -paul --------------------- From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK Subject: Unicorns and Broo Message-ID: <9406021951.AA04320@Sun.COM> Date: 2 Jun 94 16:18:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4329 Hi All I don't know whether this relationship has already been noticed here. But has anyone thought that Unicorns might be in some way connected to Broo. After all they are both Male Only Species which mate with females from other species in order to procreate. I am assuming that broo fertility and females (already discussed here at length) are products of Chaos and thus not germain. I rather like the idea that Unicorns which are portrayed as paragons of virtue are in some way connected to Broos. It would really wind up Yelornans if one suggested that they Mounted the relatives of Broos! Really, the fact that both species have cloven hooves makes it more than a coincidence (unicorns would have horse type hooves if they were unrelated). The final clincher is Ralzikark (have I spelt that right?). We assumed that he was the result of a very rare mating (possibly Unicorn and Virgin Female Broo)! Really he is just a throw-back (or very long lived example of) to when the two species were one. I hypothesize that the original species was spilt into a dark and light side variant. Broos are the beastial, short lived, highly fertile, chaos corrupted dark side. Unicorns are the honourable, immortal, pure and untainted light side. It may be possible to reunite these halves through illumination. I would assume that it would be impossible for them to successfully combine without the influence of illumination. Thus we have Ralzikark the beastial, honourable, immortal and highly fertile illuminated combination. It even goes some of the way to explaining the reported appearance of different bits of Ralzikark... Have a Nice Day Lewis --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: scholars, gamers, and distant ralios Message-ID: <01HD2OZ1EGPYQ81ZC1@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 2 Jun 94 12:08:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4330 Hi all-- Excuse the following if people now see this as a "finished" discussion. It's the disadvantage of going on vacation. And glancing at several articles posted from this week, perhaps Devin is beginning to see more of what he is looking for. Adding to the scholar vs gamer discussion, I tend to see myself as both. I've GM'd for my group for some seven years now and also served as "designer" for the same period. As GM I try to create scenarios that are fun, interesting, and within the RQ rules (RQ3 strictly over the last couple years). As designer (and hopefully someday published) on the Kingdom of Imther, I try to create a realistic background that players can develop characters from, that other GMs can utilize for ideas, and that is consistent. I don't think I see as much of a split as Devin does, though I can understand the basis for it. Much of the RQ mechanics discussions disappeared from the daily when RQ:AiG began its own posting. That has left mostly Gloranthan discussions active here. But I don't believe they are as divorced from the mechanics as you might think. The discussions provoke thought and ideas from which cults, treasures, scenarios, etc can all develop. Some of these are periodically posted and we should certainly welcome more. > the Elmal/Yelmalio switcheroo ... I would second Joerg's comments (x-rq-id 4065) and sympathize with Devin on this, though GoG had already altered Yelmalio from the initial CoP writeup (loss of Cloud Clear, changes in geases). After working out the impact of the Elmal/Yelmalio schism in my own mind, I found that it freed me to create what I really wanted for Imther, which was Khelmal (as I posted yesterday). More scholarship? Yeah, but it also has allowed me to develop a regional consistency and uniqueness that would otherwise be lacking. If its just Yelmalio again than the Sun County Yelmalions come marching up to Imther and ok they are immediately accepted as Yelmalions then I think the game and any supplements that might be produced on this area lose flavor. But if those same Sun County folk come up and see a Sun Dome-like temple, but the folk there don't give the same normal greeting and wonder why the new guys think Orlanth is some fine and dandy person, then you have some good gaming potential. And you also can develop some unique treasures like the Khelmali Spear of Hope. > cultic variations over Glorantha I don't subscribe to the one-pantheon-fits-all view of the world. I find that I increasingly dislike fantasy worlds (including some books that I otherwise enjoy like the David Eddings works) that go this way. It's true that Glorantha is not earth, but if all the cults are already defined except for little subcults then we might as well stop debating cults at all in this forum. Is multiplicity really so intimidating? Given a particular area, I think its easier for characters to get an interesting outlook if the cults are local and integrated. They know why the Fire Dance is performed in the village in the midst of Dark Season and can understand if something goes wrong in the ceremony. But if the characters want to move on elsewhere they have to try to understand differing situations--why is there no Fire Dance today?-- or make choices--do I abandon Khelmal, my native cult, for Yelmalio? do I join the Seven Mothers because it can grant me powers throughout the Lunar Provinces? > Devin (x-rq-id 4080) comments that he would rather have frex different death gods than different Humakts. Though I know this is a "scholarly" comment, in general if you have two Humakts and they are not the same then originally you had two different death gods, but something caused one to be renamed Humakt. So ask yourself why and create something from it. There was a Carmanian invasion frex and Humakt was equated with the old death god. The cult name changed, but not certain rituals. Other rituals disappeared and perhaps old cult documents, artifacts, regalia, etc. Now some character wants to know why. Well, next adventure they come across a document fragment hinting at the location of this old regalia and off the characters go. The old cult spells provide your basis for creating a unique magic item, etc. And what is scholarly leads back to the game. > "a world with history" Glorantha had and still has a rich history, but remember history is only 1600 years along--a very, very short time. And Godtime was never claimed as history even back in RQ2 or CoP, though certainly artifacts from it clutter the world. > Martin's comments (x-rq-id 4083) on false dichotomy and Eric's (x-rq-id 4085) on use of material. I agree with both of these comments. I don't believe the two (scholar vs gamer) are separate, but complimentary facets of a large group of people trying to shape a fantasy world into something workable and enjoyable, yet consistent. It is up to each GM to decide what fits with his vision (and his gamers!). > Nils (x-rq-id 4088) on discussing rules issues, etc. Perfectly reasonable and valid point. And people should feel comfortable bringing these discussions up. Now, on to another topic--East Ralios. Though I haven't yet caught up on this, I like the general discussion. Now about Urox the Storm Bull in the Ralian mythos--how did he defeat the Devil? It seems to me that the story would be far different from that told in Sartar or Prax. The Block cannot be seen from Ralios (unless you're standing on top of the Rockwoods) and there are no Storm Hills for Storm Bull to retreat to. Did Storm Bull use his great horns to drive up the Rockwoods? It seems that the formation of the Rockwood Mountains would play considerably into Ralian myth. And where did the Devil approach from? I would infer the northeast--Peloria/Dorastor. If that is the case, it would make sense why they keep experiencing problems (Gbaji, Lunars) from that direction. And was Urox the being who guarded the world when Orlanth went traipsing off to Hell? How do the East Ralians view Malkioni? --Harald --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Dragon related material for Free INT 9 wanted Message-ID:Date: 2 Jun 94 21:44:17 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4331 Hi, all. This is a call for authors and/or cooperation. We plan to make issue 9 of Free INT a draconic special, presenting material about true dragons, dream dragons, dragonewts, wyrms, dinosaurs, draconic magic, and possibly the EWF. If any of you has material which hasn't been published on the daily, please contact me. I'll contact those of you whose articles we'd like to translate or at least quote. Free INT 9 is due in September, so we will be open for ideas right into August. The currently projected issue 8 will concentrate on Call of Cthulhu again, but there will be RuneQuest and probably Glorantha as well. We thought to make dreams the leading motive, so if anybody has made some thoughts about dreams in RuneQuest, drop me a line. Author's of articles translated for Free INT are entitled to a get a copy of the issue of Free INT. We cannot pay in hard cash, I'm afraid. If you happen to be an artist who is looking for art to be published or even is willing to do an illustration, please contact me (Free INT), Mike Dawson (Codex), David Hall (Tales of the Reaching Moon) or John Castellucci). I think we all can do with some original art. If you know an artist who might be interested, please tell me (or one of the others) how to contact them. Thanks in advance for your cooperation, Joerg Baumgartner assisting editor of Free INT joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL) Subject: Malkioni Caste System Message-ID: <9406020717341@thuemmel.com> Date: 2 Jun 94 14:01:56 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4332 A summary seems in order... C> = Cullen O'Neill in X-RQ-ID: 4217 S> = Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4274 M> = Martin in X-RQ-ID: 4286 C> peasants = humble, obedient, loyal, etc S> PEASANT: Obedient, Patient, Thrifty, Hard-working M> peasant : loyalty [lord]; energetic (i.e., hard working), M> forgiving, modest, trusting Obedient and loyal (or loyal[lord]) are about the same... Hard working is GOOD! Humble/modest seems v. peasant class to me. Forgiving and trusting is within the personal life... I was thinking Public virtues I guess. Thrifty I'm not really sure of... they don't have much $$$... Peasants = Humble, Obedient, Patient, Hard-working ---===--- C> knights = loyal, brave, honest, etc S> KNIGHT: Lusty, Valiant, Worldly, Vigorous M> knight : loyalty [lord], honor; valorous, honest, energetic Loyal is very important! 2 out of 3 Valient/brave is generally agreed. Honest 2 outa 3... Energetic/Vigorous ditto... Perhaps honor should subsume honest? Lusty in which sense Sandy? Worldly? Hmm.... Knights = Loyal, Brave, Honourable, Vigorous ---===--- C> wizard = loyal, powerful, modest, etc S> WIZARD: Chaste, Cautious, Holy, Studious M> wizard : loyalty [lord]; pious, temperate, energetic, generous M> (i.e., oriented toward service to the community) Loyal would be good... Modest = Cautious = Temperate? Chaste + Holy (approx) = Pious (?) Well say, Maybe... Wizard = Loyal, Pious, Temperate, Chaste ---===--- C> lords = loyal, wise, charming, etc S> LORD: Obedient, Patient, Thrifty, Hard-working M> lord : loyalty [vassals, superior lord]; just, prudent Loyal/Obedient? Wise = Patient = Prudent ?? can't really go with Hard-working exactly (sounds to peasantry) maybe Lords = Loyal/Pious , Steadfast, Just, Wise ^ as appropriate _________ Gary Newton in X-RQ-ID: 4252 G> Both, really. Firstly, the personality traits work great as a way of G> differentiating between "ideal characters" by Caste. I view this G> principally as a game mechanic, and a vague pointer towards Malkioni G> "common sense behavior". I also envisage something a little more G> extreme, Virtue in the non-game mechanic sense. Thus, for example, G> the idea of "sin" (if we use it...), or at least crime, would be G> different for each caste. Also, physical labour might be a virtue for G> a peasant as a social disgrace for a wizard, etc. Peasants are G> _supposed_ to work; lords are _supposed_ to be authoritative - and G> woe betide those who aren't. Would the various Castes also tend to worship different saints/angels and even different aspects or interpretations of the IG? Like simple Immanence for the peasants who wouldn't understand the intricacies of Lordly doctrine (Knts get some of this, wizards even more abstruse) Seems like an idea anyway. Kind of like Hinduism with its different levels (Vedic/Upanishads/etc)? G> OK, last bit: RQ here in Japan seems really popular. Apart from the G> AH translations, there's a home-grown thingie called "RuneQuest 90s", G> which has some interesting interpolations... Let me know if you want G> to know more... Interpolations in what sense? Rules, Myths, etc... If you think it is interesting... send us more. Cullen