Bell Digest v940603p3

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 03 Jun 1994, part 3
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From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Aggar; traits
Message-ID: <199406021625.AA19203@radiomail.net>
Date: 2 Jun 94 16:25:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4327

I'm currently playing an Orlanthi from Aggar. I gave him an Orlanthi name
(Agharl) derived from King of Sartar, forgetting that Glorantha: Genertela
has a couple of Aggari names. However, both are Lunar! It strikes me this
is quite like the Celts; after they were defeated by the Romans, the
nobility adopted Roman names and otherwise Romanized themselves. I presume
in Aggar something similar is going on. The nobles would probably have the
most to gain by going Lunar (well, at least they get to stay nobles), while
I feel the lower-status Aggari would stick to Orlanthi ways (what's the
benefit to changing?).

Of course, another possibility is that the nobility are imported, but Jomes
"Wulf" Hostralus seems like a native Aggari to me.

Peter J. Whitelaw said
>As an experiment we have assigned the following passions for our Praxian
>nomads:
>
>Love Clan 3d6
>Love Tribe 2d6

Sounds reasonable; from what I know about Praxian culture, there would also
be Love Family, probably at the standard 15 (since clans aren't descent
groups).

>Of course, this is not to say that these characterisations are only going to
>occur when one uses traits and passions.

True, but it can make it easier to describe them.


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From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 02 Jun 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <9406021715.AA19920@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 2 Jun 94 17:15:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4328



  Paul Reilly here.

  Graeme writes:

>> I've never seen any reference to Hrestol being executed, much less how
>> he died - can you point me to one?

  Good point.  I don't think he did...  but Nick replies:

>Well, looks like my theory's the only one in town, and seems to plug a hole 
>in the mythos. As I said, there's no supporting evidence for *any* part of 
>the hypothesis. Take it or leave it.


  The Westerners seem pretty in-the-world kind of guys to me - they associate
long life with holiness, a holdover from their Brithini roots.  I had kind of
guessed that Hrestol was assumed bodily into Solace (i.e., by my theory,
a mystic Union with the Invisible God.) rather than dying per se.  Skip
the whole Good Friday / Easter thing and go straight to the Ascention.

  I whave to apologize to people about sending out stuff 'soon'; it seems
my mailer has been overwriting my old stored mail files and I do not have
all the old stuff I had written.  I will have to write new stuff or
find copies or get them from other people, may take a bit...

Devin Cutler writes:

D> I do not gainsay Nick's gaming contributions. I thought his scenario
D> in TOTRM 11 (I hope I got the issue # right) was great!

 and later:

D> Well Nick, I'm at work, and I KNOW that you wrote a scenario I really
D> liked and that it was Sea/God Learner oriented, so maybe change TOTRM
D> to #10 and I stand corrected.

  Rats!  I was hoping this was my scenario in #11, mistakenly attributed
to Nick.  Rather than someone else's in #10, also mistakenly attributed to
Nick...

            - Matt Thale (x-rq-id 4004) asks about the relation of 
            Mastakos and Lokarnos.

  I think all of the big Movement gods get lamed at some point, following
the primal pattern of Larnste.  Mastakos gets healed (by Orlanth?) but I
think Lokarnos is still lame, hence he is not a Runner like Mastakos or
Jmijie - he has to stay on his wagon.

  I also note that in Dara Happa (GRAoY) he is the God of Merchants; nothing
is said about wagons.  Perhaps the Dara Happans had the Wheel before other
peoples, and their merchants brought the first wagons that many other people
ever saw - hence the association of Lokarnos and wagons.

  Harald Smith comments nicely (XRQID 4294) on various astrological matters
connected with the two deities.  Oh, I see he agrees with me about Lokarnos
being crippled:
	   "Lokarnos" was crippled in hell and 
            must lumber along, aided by either a staff or carried on a 
            wagon.

Devin Cutler's Riddles:

>What was found by laughter, adopted by truth, used by trees, taken by ambush,
>and cleansed by the winds?

  The First Gift of the Dark Woman.  A man who was the Shadow Half of the
Pure Light received her Second Gift.

>Riddle 2:

>Children of Time
>and of Death
>Always busy
>with every breath
>the world their charge
>land above heel
>watching each
>spark and wheel
>condemned to live
>eternal life
>unless cut short
>by untimely strife
>with wonders taken
>by human hands
>they've secrets left
>to fix the land

  ??? First two lines don't fit my theory.  Otherwise they are the Made Makers,
the clay ones.

>Riddle 3:

>One of five can find a treasure but never bring it back. Two of five can
>loose the arrow that starts the attack. Three of five can steal a purse and
>leave no track. Four of five can pledge a vow so loyalty does not lack. But
>five of five can do anything once they have the knack.

  Perhaps the sons of Umath?

>Riddle 4:

>What is square but rolls round and when done spots abound?

  Hmm.  Didn't the Block roll?  I'll have to think about this.

>Riddle 5:

  Obvious, but very nice.  Does Aranea feature in this Heroquest?

>Riddle 6:

  The Emperor.  (Golden, not Red!)

>Riddle 7:

  Don't tell this one in Sartar, they'll put you away!

------

""Argrath" suggested the Morocanth Thumbquest.  Peter Michaels and
Loren suggested (rightly, IMO) that the thumbs of the human are his
'stake' and get bitten off.  However, I don't think they should necessarily
get 'grafted' on - if the Morocanth are really Darkness creatures they
should be able to practice _becoming_through_eating_ : they just swallow the
thumbs and over the next season, the new pair of Morokanth's Thumbs grows
out.

  Note that the human can't just get his thumbs regenerated - the Morokanth
has the _pattern_ for his thumbs.  He has no 'ghost aura' to guide the
Regeneration, like Aura Rot / Leprosy.

  

---

  Sandy writes:

>	The God Learners didn't destroy any continents, and would  
>have prevented the damage if they could. Let's not blame the victims. 

  Hurrah!  One for Old Jrustela!

  I really do like the better God Learners.

  -paul

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From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Unicorns and Broo
Message-ID: <9406021951.AA04320@Sun.COM>
Date: 2 Jun 94 16:18:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4329


Hi All
	I don't know whether this relationship has already been noticed here.  
But has anyone thought that Unicorns might be in some way connected to Broo.  
After all they are both Male Only Species which mate with females from other 
species in order to procreate.  I am assuming that broo fertility and females 
(already discussed here at length) are products of Chaos and thus not germain.  
I rather like the idea that Unicorns which are portrayed as paragons of virtue 
are in some way connected to Broos.  It would really wind up Yelornans if one 
suggested that they Mounted the relatives of Broos!  

Really, the fact that both species have cloven hooves makes it more than a 
coincidence (unicorns would have horse type hooves if they were unrelated).  

The final clincher is Ralzikark (have I spelt that right?).  
We assumed that he was the result of a very rare mating (possibly Unicorn 
and Virgin Female Broo)!  Really he is just a throw-back (or very long 
lived example of) to when the two species were one.  

I hypothesize that the original species was spilt into a dark and light 
side variant.  

Broos are the beastial, short lived, highly fertile, chaos corrupted dark side.
Unicorns are the honourable, immortal, pure and untainted light side.  

It may be possible to reunite these halves through illumination.  
I would assume that it would be impossible for them to successfully combine 
without the influence of illumination.  

Thus we have Ralzikark the beastial, honourable, immortal and highly fertile 
illuminated combination.  It even goes some of the way to explaining the 
reported appearance of different bits of Ralzikark...

	Have a Nice Day
			Lewis

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From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: scholars, gamers, and distant ralios
Message-ID: <01HD2OZ1EGPYQ81ZC1@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 2 Jun 94 12:08:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4330

            Hi all--
            
            Excuse the following if people now see this as a "finished" 
            discussion.  It's the disadvantage of going on vacation.  
            And glancing at several articles posted from this week, 
            perhaps Devin is beginning to see more of what he is looking 
            for.
            
            Adding to the scholar vs gamer discussion, I tend to see 
            myself as both.  I've GM'd for my group for some seven years 
            now and also served as "designer" for the same period.  As 
            GM I try to create scenarios that are fun, interesting, and 
            within the RQ rules (RQ3 strictly over the last couple 
            years).  As designer (and hopefully someday published) on 
            the Kingdom of Imther, I try to create a realistic 
            background that players can develop characters from, that 
            other GMs can utilize for ideas, and that is consistent.
            
            I don't think I see as much of a split as Devin does, though 
            I can understand the basis for it.  Much of the RQ mechanics 
            discussions disappeared from the daily when RQ:AiG began its 
            own posting.  That has left mostly Gloranthan discussions 
            active here.  But I don't believe they are as divorced from 
            the mechanics as you might think.  The discussions provoke 
            thought and ideas from which cults, treasures, scenarios, 
            etc can all develop.  Some of these are periodically posted 
            and we should certainly welcome more.
            
            > the Elmal/Yelmalio switcheroo ...
            
            I would second Joerg's comments (x-rq-id 4065) and 
            sympathize with Devin on this, though GoG had already 
            altered Yelmalio from the initial CoP writeup (loss of Cloud 
            Clear, changes in geases).  After working out the impact of 
            the Elmal/Yelmalio schism in my own mind, I found that it 
            freed me to create what I really wanted for Imther, which 
            was Khelmal (as I posted yesterday).
            
            More scholarship?  Yeah, but it also has allowed me to 
            develop a regional consistency and uniqueness that would 
            otherwise be lacking.  If its just Yelmalio again than the 
            Sun County Yelmalions come marching up to Imther and ok they 
            are immediately accepted as Yelmalions then I think the game 
            and any supplements that might be produced on this area lose 
            flavor.  But if those same Sun County folk come up and see a 
            Sun Dome-like temple, but the folk there don't give the same 
            normal greeting and wonder why the new guys think Orlanth is 
            some fine and dandy person, then you have some good gaming 
            potential.  And you also can develop some unique treasures 
            like the Khelmali Spear of Hope.
            
            > cultic variations over Glorantha
            
            I don't subscribe to the one-pantheon-fits-all view of the 
            world.  I find that I increasingly dislike fantasy worlds 
            (including some books that I otherwise enjoy like the David 
            Eddings works) that go this way.  It's true that Glorantha 
            is not earth, but if all the cults are already defined 
            except for little subcults then we might as well stop 
            debating cults at all in this forum.

            
            Is multiplicity really so intimidating?  Given a particular 
            area, I think its easier for characters to get an 
            interesting outlook if the cults are local and integrated.  
            They know why the Fire Dance is performed in the village in 
            the midst of Dark Season and can understand if something 
            goes wrong in the ceremony.  But if the characters want to 
            move on elsewhere they have to try to understand differing 
            situations--why is there no Fire Dance today?-- or make 
            choices--do I abandon Khelmal, my native cult, for Yelmalio? 
            do I join the Seven Mothers because it can grant me powers 
            throughout the Lunar Provinces?
            
            > Devin (x-rq-id 4080) comments that he would rather have 
            frex different death gods than different Humakts.
            
            Though I know this is a "scholarly" comment, in general if 
            you have two Humakts and they are not the same then 
            originally you had two different death gods, but something 
            caused one to be renamed Humakt.  So ask yourself why and 
            create something from it.  There was a Carmanian invasion 
            frex and Humakt was equated with the old death god.  The 
            cult name changed, but not certain rituals.  Other rituals 
            disappeared and perhaps old cult documents, artifacts, 
            regalia, etc.  Now some character wants to know why.  Well, 
            next adventure they come across a document fragment hinting 
            at the location of this old regalia and off the characters 
            go.  The old cult spells provide your basis for creating a 
            unique magic item, etc.  And what is scholarly leads back to 
            the game.
            
            > "a world with history"
            
            Glorantha had and still has a rich history, but remember 
            history is only 1600 years along--a very, very short time.  
            And Godtime was never claimed as history even back in RQ2 or 
            CoP, though certainly artifacts from it clutter the world.
            
            > Martin's comments (x-rq-id 4083) on false dichotomy and 
            Eric's (x-rq-id 4085) on use of material.
            
            I agree with both of these comments.  I don't believe the 
            two (scholar vs gamer) are separate, but complimentary 
            facets of a large group of people trying to shape a fantasy 
            world into something workable and enjoyable, yet consistent.  
            It is up to each GM to decide what fits with his vision (and 
            his gamers!).  
            
            > Nils (x-rq-id 4088) on discussing rules issues, etc.
            
            Perfectly reasonable and valid point.  And people should 
            feel comfortable bringing these discussions up.
            
            

            Now, on to another topic--East Ralios.  Though I haven't yet 
            caught up on this, I like the general discussion.  Now about 
            Urox the Storm Bull in the Ralian mythos--how did he defeat 
            the Devil?  It seems to me that the story would be far 
            different from that told in Sartar or Prax.  The Block 
            cannot be seen from Ralios (unless you're standing on top of 
            the Rockwoods) and there are no Storm Hills for Storm Bull 
            to retreat to.  Did Storm Bull use his great horns to drive 
            up the Rockwoods?  It seems that the formation of the 
            Rockwood Mountains would play considerably into Ralian myth.  
            And where did the Devil approach from?  I would infer the 
            northeast--Peloria/Dorastor.  If that is the case, it would 
            make sense why they keep experiencing problems (Gbaji, 
            Lunars) from that direction.  And was Urox the being who 
            guarded the world when Orlanth went traipsing off to Hell?
            How do the East Ralians view Malkioni?
            
            --Harald
            



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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Dragon related material for Free INT 9 wanted
Message-ID: 
Date: 2 Jun 94 21:44:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4331


Hi, all.

This is a call for authors and/or cooperation. We plan to make issue 9 
of Free INT a draconic special, presenting material about true dragons, 
dream dragons, dragonewts, wyrms, dinosaurs, draconic magic, and 
possibly the EWF. If any of you has material which hasn't been 
published on the daily, please contact me. I'll contact those of 
you whose articles we'd like to translate or at least quote.

Free INT 9 is due in September, so we will be open for ideas right into 
August.

The currently projected issue 8 will concentrate on Call of Cthulhu 
again, but there will be RuneQuest and probably Glorantha as well. We 
thought to make dreams the leading motive, so if anybody has made some 
thoughts about dreams in RuneQuest, drop me a line.

Author's of articles translated for Free INT are entitled to a get a 
copy of the issue of Free INT. We cannot pay in hard cash, I'm afraid.

If you happen to be an artist who is looking for art to be published or 
even is willing to do an illustration, please contact me (Free INT), 
Mike Dawson (Codex), David Hall (Tales of the Reaching Moon) or John 
Castellucci). I think we all can do with some original art. If you 
know an artist who might be interested, please tell me (or one of the 
others) how to contact them.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation,

Joerg Baumgartner

assisting editor of Free INT

joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: Malkioni Caste System
Message-ID: <9406020717341@thuemmel.com>
Date: 2 Jun 94 14:01:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4332


A summary seems in order...

C> = Cullen O'Neill in X-RQ-ID: 4217
S> = Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4274
M> = Martin in X-RQ-ID: 4286

C> peasants = humble, obedient, loyal, etc
S> PEASANT: Obedient, Patient, Thrifty, Hard-working
M> peasant : loyalty [lord]; energetic (i.e., hard working),
M>           forgiving, modest, trusting

Obedient and loyal (or loyal[lord]) are about the same...
Hard working is GOOD!
Humble/modest seems v. peasant class to me.
Forgiving and trusting is within the personal life...
  I was thinking Public virtues I guess.
Thrifty I'm not really sure of... they don't have much $$$...

Peasants = Humble, Obedient, Patient, Hard-working

---===---
C> knights  = loyal, brave, honest, etc
S> KNIGHT: Lusty, Valiant, Worldly, Vigorous
M> knight  : loyalty [lord], honor; valorous, honest, energetic

Loyal is very important! 2 out of 3
Valient/brave is generally agreed.
Honest 2 outa 3...
Energetic/Vigorous ditto...
Perhaps honor should subsume honest?
Lusty in which sense Sandy?  Worldly? Hmm....

Knights  = Loyal, Brave, Honourable, Vigorous

---===---
C> wizard   = loyal, powerful, modest, etc
S> WIZARD: Chaste, Cautious, Holy, Studious
M> wizard  : loyalty [lord]; pious, temperate, energetic, generous
M>           (i.e., oriented toward service to the community)

Loyal would be good...
Modest = Cautious = Temperate?
Chaste + Holy (approx) = Pious (?)
Well say, Maybe...

Wizard   = Loyal, Pious, Temperate, Chaste

---===---
C> lords    = loyal, wise, charming, etc
S> LORD: Obedient, Patient, Thrifty, Hard-working
M> lord    : loyalty [vassals, superior lord]; just, prudent

Loyal/Obedient?
Wise = Patient = Prudent ??
can't really go with Hard-working exactly (sounds to peasantry)
maybe

Lords    = Loyal/Pious , Steadfast, Just, Wise
                ^ as appropriate
_________
Gary Newton in X-RQ-ID: 4252

G> Both, really. Firstly, the personality traits work great as a way of
G> differentiating between "ideal characters" by Caste. I view this
G> principally as a game mechanic, and a vague pointer towards Malkioni
G> "common sense behavior". I also envisage something a little more
G> extreme, Virtue in the non-game mechanic sense. Thus, for example,
G> the idea of "sin" (if we use it...), or at least crime, would be
G> different for each caste. Also, physical labour might be a virtue for
G> a peasant as a social disgrace for a wizard, etc. Peasants are
G> _supposed_ to work; lords are _supposed_ to be authoritative - and
G> woe betide those who aren't.

Would the various Castes also tend to worship different saints/angels
and even different aspects or interpretations of the IG?  Like simple
Immanence for the peasants who wouldn't understand the intricacies of
Lordly doctrine (Knts get some of this, wizards even more abstruse)
Seems like an idea anyway.  Kind of like Hinduism with its different
levels (Vedic/Upanishads/etc)?

G> OK, last bit: RQ here in Japan seems really popular. Apart from the
G> AH translations, there's a home-grown thingie called "RuneQuest 90s",
G> which has some interesting interpolations... Let me know if you want
G> to know more...

Interpolations in what sense?  Rules, Myths, etc... If you think it is
interesting... send us more.

Cullen