Bell Digest v940604p2

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 04 Jun 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: pilgrimages and misc
Date: 3 Jun 94 14:05:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4343

Bill Robertson in X-RQ-ID: 4314

> I agree whole heartedly.  I like the idea that a skilled sorcercer 
> using his sleight skill can cast a spell while talking to you.  I 
> think it makes for better role playing opportunities.  Brings more 
> flavor and danger into interaction with a sorcerer.

Not to forget tricksters. What use is a lie spell everyone can see?

> Here's the way I envision it working.  While engaged in conversation, 
> the sorcerer would begin casting his spell normally.  If you encourage 
> note passing in your game (I do) (s)he should inform you in this manner.  
> This keeps the other players on edge because their characters (probably) 
> wouldn't know it either.   Then, include sleight into the skill mix 
> of sorcery manipulation skills.  i.e. You have to roll lower than your 
> lowest skill.

I'd rather have the magician make two (or even three) rolls: one to 
determine is success in sleight, an independent one to see whether the 
spell goes off. Involved spells could require a concentration roll as 
well if they are to be cast during conversation.

This would also be usable for the current AiG draft sorcery rules.

> My ideas are still incomplete.  How can the targets notice?  Scan?  
> Seems reasonable to use the normal skill v.s. skill rules. 

I rule that the target notices being enspelled when it has to make its 
resistance roll. If the spell was cast without the target noticing it, it 
will have no idea by what or where from it was hit.

Blatant spell effects (like lightning) won't keep the caster unnoticed 
for long, of course, but small thingies like Hotfoot would.

If my sorcerer had to cast a spell unnoticed, I'd prepare a sight 
projection, and cast from around a corner...

> Is the difference between pilgrimage and Heroquest physical and 
> metaphysical?

I am currently running a scenario with a pilgrimage softly being 
mucked up because the wrong people take part.

It's a "soft" reenactment of the victorious march of a band of 
Hendriki against the minions of Gabji's lieutenant Palangio the Iron 
Vrok, who held the populace of Heortland in thrall until Arkat landed 
and the Hendriki left their mountain refuges to join his forces.

On their way north through Heortland they fought an army of illuminates 
at the "first battle of Milran", whence they drove the Gbajians to the 
edge of the white cliffs of Heortland, and then over the edge. (Since 
they were already illuminated, this wasn't too hard ... pardon the pun.)

The pilgrims in Third Age Holy Country take part to gain an additional 
chance to recover or sacrifice for divine magic (I rule that one can 
try to recover one point of initiate divine magic each High Holy Day, or
upon completion of a pilgrimage). Most of their acts are symbolic, like 
carrying a standard showing a Vrok from Milran to the cliff edge and 
throwing it down, all the while brandishing their weapons.
Through a number of coincidences there are illuminates among the pursuers...

The spectres of the past, who accompany the pilgrims on this reenactments, 
get confused because of the mixing of good guys and bad guys among the 
pilgrims. When a flock of sheep comes into the way of the pilgrims, some 
of the enemy spectres break out along with the sheep.

A PC shamanic character perceived this, and together with the other PCs 
tried to redeem the situation without chasing a village's weregeld worth 
of sheep down the cliff. They managed to lose only a few sheep...

IMO this isn't a fully fledged heroquest, although in the critical moment 
a heroquest-like situation came up. Pilgrimages, like worship services, 
are reenactments of myths. They are first of all symbolic. Only when the 
symbols get mucked up, the reenactment doesn't confirm the myth, but opens 
for new possibilities.

For an official Glorantha version of such an reenactment, read the 
consecration rite of the Sartar temple of the Reaching Moon. By 
introducing a related, but wrongly timed effect into the ceremony, 
the Dragon's Head (the central star in Orlanth's Ring) was brought 
into the ceremony. Clever, isn't it?

> There's not just a word for uncle.  There are words for your fathers 
> older brothers and words for your father's younger brothers. [...]

> This makes me wonder about the importance of the clan in Orlanthi society.  
> I don't think the Orlanthi have this sort of mode of address because 
> of their, "freedom lovin' nature."  I wonder what cultures in Glorantha 
> might address their family members like this?  Any suggestions?

The Dara Happans, of course. They are so enmeshed in formalities that 
this is the very stuff they live upon.

> I'd imagine that any sort of death sentence would have be quick.  Hate to 
> see those thugs using DI to get out of their fate.  Although it COULD 
> be a great plot device.

There is no way to DI out if the execution is performed on Sacred Ground 
of a deity not of the character's creed. This might be a reason to make 
initiation into Danfive Xaron's cult a somewhat popular choice, since 
I imagine his holy sites to be the sites of execution...

--  Joerg Baumgartner


Subject: G'day
Message-ID: <>
Date: 4 Jun 94 10:04:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4344

G'day Everyone,

I married a Gorilla

Edward has a problem with a Garhound Winner:

>the baboon ended up winning
>any body have a good idea of what the Garhound 
>reaction should be?

As baboons are thought of as little more than undomesticated animals,
he's lucky to have been allowed to compete (maybe the idea of a baboon
on horseback had such comic merit they let him by?)  Given that he was
permitted to compete at all, that baboon is damn lucky to have made it 
through to the end.  I bet there quite few people out to nobble him once 
it was clear the comic relief was the front runner!  However, if he did 
make it through, there'd no doubt in anyone's mind that he cheated!  The 
second place getter would be invested as Champion, though if the crops are 
bad the following year everyone might grumble that maybe the baboon 
should have won after all!  

Eeek! I've just had a terrible thought: what happens if Ed's Duck PC 
came second!

There is little to no way I can see the Garhounders accepting a baboon as 
a suitable consort for their Harvest Queen, and I think they would use 
whatever means (even low and nasty in the end, if neccesary) to prevent it.

Modes of Address

Gary Newton wrote a few day's back:
>I won't go into too much detail unless people want to know more, but suffice 
>it to say that there are particular registers, modes of speaking, which 
>members of certain social "classes" _must_ use to one another if they are to 
>be socially correct...
        [fascinating details follow, deleted]
>...I'd better stop now before you all get that glazed look and slump 
>over head first at your terminals... Let me know if you want more...

This didn't cause me to slump at all - yes, I would like to see more!  (On this
theme I enjoyed Nick's New Pelorian NewSpeak - in fact, I thought it was 
'double plus good'!)

A Land of Rolling Plains

Sandy writes of the USA:
ou don't understand. Because our country is so enormous, and  
>comparatively thinly-peopled...

Maybe it's just my antipodean perspective, but I think if you're looking
for an example of an "enormous ...thinly-populated" country, the United
States does not readily come to mind.  Consider: The continental United 
States is approximately the same SIZ as Australia, yet has almost FOURTEEN 
TIMES the population!  And if you're talking "thinly peopled", at least there 
is "stuff" (eg. settlements,towns, cities, Burger Kings, Game stores?) 
spread right across the North American continent - Down Here there's almost
nothing at all in the interior.  In fact, crossing the great Nullarbor Plain 
by train, the most  exciting thing you're likely to see in three days 
is a solitary tree!  (Who knows what the dingos out there pee on?)

>...a given city tends to have fewer actual RuneQuesters available, except 
>for the largest metropolitan areas.

In contrast, our cities tend to have virtually all the RQers, because 
there are only 5 cities in Australia with a population of more than a 
million, and nearly 90% of the entire population live in those 5.  

(Lest my Canberran friends take umbrage - let me add that although the capital
is only the size of a large country town, it has lots of gamers and RQers 
too as it is full of university-educated bureaucracts)




Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 02 Jun 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <>
Date: 3 Jun 94 14:09:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4345

Devin Cutler here:

"D> Well Nick, I'm at work, and I KNOW that you wrote a scenario I really
D> liked and that it was Sea/God Learner oriented, so maybe change TOTRM
D> to #10 and I stand corrected.

*Still* not mine, alas. But thanks again, anyway! "



Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 02 Jun 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <>
Date: 3 Jun 94 14:10:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4346

Devin Cutler here:

Pam Carlson writes:

"Would any other folks be interested in horse & dog detail for RQ?
Are there any aspects you would particularly like to see addressed?"

Yes, please!

RQ3 needs training rules for horses (good ones, not like the ones in RQ2) and
a writeup of different types of horses. I have an old White Dwarf article
that gives some various horse-types around Glorantha. More like this would be

Devin Cutler


Subject: Deletion from Mailing List
Message-ID: <>
Date: 3 Jun 94 14:47:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4347

Please delete from mailing list.Thank you.


From: (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: More comments
Message-ID: <>
Date: 3 Jun 94 19:19:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4348


>My claim is for other, perhaps hillier or less densely-populated, areas
>(such as the East Wilds, parts of which you describe as "near-desert" in
>Gloranthan Bestiary).

I would assume these near-desert areas are Vustria and Karia, which are
technically part of the East Wilds. The Bestiary does say "north-east",
doesn't it?

>To add to the confusion, in my campaign, Ehilm worship is hereditary and
>for males only. Whether you can worship is determined whether your _mother_
>is descended (through the female line) from the Queen who first met (and
>slept with) Ehilm.

We're still undecided about this. It all depends on who Ehilm _is_.

>I believe Sandy said many of his Galanini
>worshipped Hyalor, but I don't think it makes sense to tame your kin

Agree with you there. Hippoi is also out of the picture as far as we're
concerned. I can see an argument for something like Golden Bow or Kuschile,
though - perhaps the Ehilm cult should integrate some elements like that,
and lose some of the more pompous Yelm attributes?

>Don't believe every myth that was invented during the Ritual of Rebirth
>which Ironhoof held for the refugee horse-riders.

Right. Making every centaur in Glorantha a EWF hybrid on the basis of one
vague comment in KoS is a bit much. In our East Wilds, we have centaurs and
other beastmen with an entirely different mythology (based around the


>Surely we need another term for "blacksmith" on Glorantha to denote 
>the village smith who shoes horses and makes and repairs agricultural 

Well, there _is_ "redsmith", remember?

>Dorasta was used as a Grain Goddess (of maize, but Martin was faster 
>than me).

OK, I've checked and we don't really have any support for the maize bit
except the fact that she's Pelora's daughter. Which brings up the
Hon-Eel/Pelora question. We might just want to forget we ever mentioned

>Didn't Peloria grow wheat 
>before Hon-eel discovered maize for the empire, just 140 years ago?

Ha! Now here's something we can latch on to! Wheat-growing Dorastans
intruded into the EW, which gave the orlanthi some ideas (previously their
lifestyle hadn't evolved very far from the hunting/gathering stage), and so
they quested for a Land/Grain Goddess of their own, who also was a wheat
goddess, since they didn't know about any other grains. Or something. Just
a hypothesis, I'll have to think about this some more when I get home
(somebody's analogizing between the daily and a pub comes to mind)...

>I think the Dawn Age Theyalan missionaries did not just convert 
>Hsunchen, they also searched for and found the "lost tribes" of Orlanthi, 
>spread well into the West.

Allright, but I would add that these lost tribes had forgotten most of
their Orlanthi roots (including their god's name).

>I don't think that we ought to differentiate between Hsunchen and other 
>humans in the Godtime and Dawn Age as much as we have to do after the 
>God Learners invented the Hykimi.

Arrrgh! I, for one, am perfectly happy with God Learner historiography. :-)

>The post-Compromise admittance of the Ralian Hsunchen into the 
>Orlanthi fold apparently did not result in new husbandry for the 
>hill barbarians.

Nah, they had to forget their old ways of life if they wanted to make any
headway as orlanthi.

>I have seen a source that reports chariots in use by the Galanini in the 
>late Second Age.

I know which one you mean, and I don't buy it. It's waaay too old and outdated.

>I don't think the Orlanthi use horses to plow, that's what Oxen are for.

In our EW, there isn't much cattle (no real reason, it's just designer
fiat). No dogs, either (we're cat people, all three of us). BTW, do you
_have_ to have dogs to herd sheep? Can't you just have a lot of young boys
running around (gives 'em some exercise...)?

>Galanini horses are the fiery mustangs 
>of the Felster basin, while the Orlanthi use the shaggy hill pony 

We've been thinking that _all_ Ralian horses are ponies. Well, relatively
small and sturdy horses, at any rate. Native ones at least - the Safelster
states will of course have imported breeding stock from the West.


> Thus Hon-Eel's heroquest brought a 'grain'
>that existed in the East Wilds to Peloria, and is remembered for that,

Wow! Though I like the audacity of this, it doesn't really fit. See my
comments to Joerg.


>One thing I'd particularly like to know concerns people's views on the Dawn 
>Age Dangans.

Check out the history section of the Glorantha Book.

Another Gary:

>Anyone else have any ideas on what a character loses in becoming

Innocence? Actually, I think that the psychological effects you describe
are quite enough, without piling on game-system effects as well. This is
asuming the character is actually role-played, of course. And as I tried to
describe (yes, I am the previous poster you refer to), the psychological
impact of Illumination to a great deal depends on what your personality was
_before_ Illumination.

>This other character is
>not Illuminated, but wants to become Illuminated.  I think she
>will lose her oracular gifts if she is Illuminated, although I don't
>think she realizes this.

Why should she? Lose them, I mean. I can see it if the visions are the
result of a world-view that Illumination would deny, but this is far from
certain: Illumination can accept just about anything. An important question
is _why_ this person wants to reach Illumination? What does she believe it
is, a remedy for her nightmares, a way to _explain_ her visions, or
something completely unrelated?

>Maybe when Nysalor lived within the world, he taught how to face and
>overcome the fear of Gbaji and how to realize the moral potential
>granted by Illumination.  But since he is dead, the Illuminate must
>find her own way.

Yes, this explains something about how Nysalor worship could spread so
rapidly. Presumably the outer areas of the Golden Empire, where corruption
set in, were too remote to be reached by his personal teachings, and had to
rely on second-hand information.


>What was found by laughter, adopted by truth, used by trees, taken by ambush,
>and cleansed by the winds?


>Riddle 2


>Riddle 6


>BTW, someone mentioned that the GL Secret might be "it's a game" as an
>off-the-cuff remark. Well, it seems that I have heard this before suggested
>as the REAL Secret -).

This sounds plausible. In fact, the only reason I can think of for keeping
the Secret so secret is that it's Embarassingly Silly.


>Clarification: the New Fens have not changed their position. When  
>first written up by Ken, Greg and I did not know what to call that  
>part of Glorantha.[...]

Thanks. So, what about those Dangans? :-)


> Now about 
> Urox the Storm Bull in the Ralian mythos--how did he defeat the Devil?

Devil? You mean Arkat? :-) Seriously, though, the Storm Bull and Humakt
cults were only introduced into the EW (still talking about _our_ version
here, remember this is _not_ official) very recently (Third Age). Why?
Well, Humakt is much too close to Arkat for comfort. The SB (SoB?) probably
made people very nervous back in the Golden Empire days, and the dislike
has lingered, though the reason for it is forgotten.

Hadn't thought about changing the geography of the myths before. Don't know
if I like the idea yet...

>How do the East Ralians view Malkioni?

They're kinda stupid, but mainly harmless. The exception is of course those
multiply-accursed traitor bastards in Naskorion.

(      Jonas Schiott                                   )
(      Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria      )
(      Goteborgs Universitet                           )


From: (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Aruzban Ironarm
Message-ID: <>
Date: 3 Jun 94 19:28:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4349

IUve noticed this guy being mentioned in passing during a few discussions
here on the daily (though to my knowledge noone got the spelling right :-),
so I thought IUd chip in with our version.
Funnily enough, the remarks just mentioned all seem to assume that the
passage about his Siron limbsS is to be taken _literally_. A pair of
cast-iron prostheses? Well, thatUs one way of looking at it, but our
immediate reaction was to see it as a metonym for iron_clad_ arms.

Aruzban Ironarm

The King of Delela is trying to make his position more like that of the
Safelster kings, as far as power, etiquette, organization and culture is
concerned. Aruzban is a vain man, and very susceptible to flattery.
A delegation of diplomats from Naskorion has, in a move to appease Aruzban
after the war, presented him with a gift of complete Iron plate armour in
the latest Western fashion. He wears this armour as often as possible.
To increase his standing among the chieftains of Delela, Aruzban has during
the last five years led as many expeditions into Corolaland and on occasion
even Halikiv, defeating minor Troll clans. He is known for burning trolls
to death by wrestling them while wearing his Iron armour.
Some of the thanes in his own tribe take a dim view of AruzbanUs weakness
for western culture and lifestyles. So do many of the Delelan chieftains,
but they have their own power bases and can express their dislike openly.
The opposition among AruzbanUs subjects instead takes the form of a secret
society called the Silver Torque, which is rumoured to have connections in
high places.
To keep his title, prestige and power intact, Aruzban likes to emphasize
his unbroken bloodline all the way back to the legendary King Retter, and
also his firm treatment of the trolls (another way to stress his kinship
with the great troll fighter). AruzbanUs goal is to acheive total control
over Delela to begin with, and Saug later on. Keanos does not exist on his
map of the East Wilds, or SDangan KingdomS as he privately thinks of it.

(      Jonas Schiott                                   )
(      Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria      )
(      Goteborgs Universitet                           )


From: (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Riddles - my take
Date: 3 Jun 94 15:52:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4350

Devin's riddles from X-RQ-ID: 4298

My takes, now other luminaries tried theirs:

> Riddle 1:

> What was found by laughter, adopted by truth, used by trees, taken by ambush,
> and cleansed by the winds?


> Riddle 2:

> Children of Time
> and of Death
> they've secrets left
> to fix the land

Clay Mostali, not so easy.

> Riddle 3:

> One of five can find a treasure but never bring it back. Two of five can
> loose the arrow that starts the attack. Three of five can steal a purse and
> leave no track. Four of five can pledge a vow so loyalty does not lack. But
> five of five can do anything once they have the knack.

Fingers. Although depending on archery style I'd switch 2 and 3.

Not so easy, looking at all the different suggestions.

> Riddle 4:

> What is square but rolls round and when done spots abound?

My first impression was something earth-rune aligned, including fertility, 
but a (6-sided) die fits. Hard for me.

> Riddle 5:

> Weaver and assassin

Spider. Not too hard.

> Riddle 6:

> This Lord has fallen
> from his haughty throne

My impression was Yelm, too, but I felt this came from a (my) bias. 

> Riddle 7:

> Two cows and some trees with a squid running through them lie on a bench and
> impart wisdom to the world.

Sounds chaotic to me, otherwise no idea. No extra 1% for illumination 
this sacred time for me...

> My impression is that #7 is very tough, #2 and #5 are very easy. #6 is
> probably easy also, but I am including it as an insult from the Trickster to
> one of the PC's.

7 seems to be a very tough nut.

I wasn't that hot about the illumination riddles, but then I can't come 
up with better ones OOMH.
--  Joerg Baumgartner